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Author Topic: ZeroCoin Whitepaper Discussion (is it the first truly innovative ALT coin????)  (Read 3269 times)
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May 12, 2013, 03:33:09 AM
 #1

This is one of the most innovative merge mined / ALT coin ideas IMO, it's a shame there isn't a thread here on the ALT subforum about it.

It is an idea of a merge mined SHA-256 coin that truly adds anonymity to the Bitcoin network.

Quote:
"Abstract—Bitcoin is the first e-cash system to see widespread
adoption. While Bitcoin offers the potential for new types of
financial interaction, it has significant limitations regarding
privacy. Specifically, because the Bitcoin transaction log is
completely public, users’ privacy is protected only through the
use of pseudonyms. In this paper we propose Zerocoin,
a cryptographic extension to Bitcoin that augments the protocol
to allow for fully anonymous currency transactions. Our system uses
standard cryptographic assumptions and does not introduce
new trusted parties or otherwise change the security model of
Bitcoin. We detail Zerocoin’s cryptographic construction, its
integration into Bitcoin, and examine its performance both in
terms of computation and impact on the Bitcoin protocol."

Read more here: http://spar.isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf

I am going to go on record on saying that this is going to be the new best ALT currency, this is true innovation. They aren't just changing a couple parameters of existing coins. They are actually improving Bitcoin by making it more Anonymous, while creating a new coin at the same time. This has the possibility of blowing most other ALTs out of the water in terms of value. The silk road/bmr/etc. types are going to love this and also libertarians like myself.

I just found out about this today- I saw it on the schedule for the Bitcoin conference and I can't wait to hear more about it.

PS: I did not write the white paper and have no affiliation with this the guys that did- I just think it is really neat.

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May 12, 2013, 03:36:13 AM
 #2

This is one of the most innovative merge mined / ALT coin ideas IMO, it's a shame there isn't a thread here on the ALT subforum about it.

It is an idea of a merge mined SHA-256 coin that truly adds anonymity to the Bitcoin network.

Quote:
"Abstract—Bitcoin is the first e-cash system to see widespread
adoption. While Bitcoin offers the potential for new types of
financial interaction, it has significant limitations regarding
privacy. Specifically, because the Bitcoin transaction log is
completely public, users’ privacy is protected only through the
use of pseudonyms. In this paper we propose Zerocoin, a cryptographic extension to Bitcoin that augments the protocol to allow
for fully anonymous currency transactions. Our system uses
standard cryptographic assumptions and does not introduce
new trusted parties or otherwise change the security model of
Bitcoin. We detail Zerocoin’s cryptographic construction, its
integration into Bitcoin, and examine its performance both in
terms of computation and impact on the Bitcoin protocol."

Read more here: http://spar.isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf

I am going to go on record on saying that this is going to be the new best ALT currency, this is true innovation. They aren't just changing a couple parameters of existing coins. They are actually improving Bitcoin by making it more Anonymous, while creating a new coin at the same time. This has the possibility of blowing most other ALTs out of the water. The silk road/bmr/etc. types are going to love and also libertarians like myself.

I just found out about this today- I saw it on the schedule for the Bitcoin conference and I can't wait to hear more about it.

PS: I did not write the white paper and have no affiliation with this idea- I just think it is really neat.

This concept has a lot of promise. I hope they implement it.

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May 12, 2013, 03:36:42 AM
 #3

Sounds awesome.

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May 12, 2013, 03:37:56 AM
 #4

From what I've noticed, and I could be wrong, but Stratum has made merged mining obsolete, because most of the merged minable coins, are still getwork...I noticed that with NMC on Slush's pool, anyways

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May 12, 2013, 03:43:34 AM
 #5

From what I've noticed, and I could be wrong, but Stratum has made merged mining obsolete, because most of the merged minable coins, are still getwork...I noticed that with NMC on Slush's pool, anyways

I'm guessing there are ways to merge mine with Stratum, and they probably already have thought about that- this is a rather new idea. I will learn more about it at the Bitcoin conference, where one of the guys that wrote the whitepaper is speaking about it. Smiley

Here's an article on Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/04/12/zerocoin-add-on-for-bitcoin-could-make-it-truly-anonymous-and-untraceable/

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May 12, 2013, 03:56:07 AM
 #6

Also, I wanted to mention that as Bitcoin gets more and more popular, the more Governments are going to want to get involved. Let's face it the block chain is not completely anonymous. There is a paper trail- an account ledger for every address and transaction. Making cryptocoins more anonymous would help to avoid Government intrusion. Also, this will be backed by ASICs making the network really secure.

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May 12, 2013, 03:58:42 AM
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Also, I wanted to mention that as Bitcoin gets more and more popular, the more Governments are going to want to get involved. Let's face it the block chain is not completely anonymous. There is a paper trail- an account ledger for every address and transaction. Making cryptocoins more anonymous would help to avoid Government intrusion. Also, this will be backed by ASICs making the network really secure.

If you convert BTC into USD, and deposit it into your bank account, you better claim it on your taxes.

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May 12, 2013, 04:01:03 AM
 #8

If you convert BTC into USD, and deposit it into your bank account, you better claim it on your taxes.

Sure, I agree you should always pay taxes on income.

However, as Bitcoin becomes more accepted at different stores and sites, doing Bitcoin business transactions that do not involve FIAT would be impossible to trace by the Government with ZeroCoin implemented.

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May 12, 2013, 04:07:28 AM
 #9

Which leads us to the fundamental problem.

Inability to pay taxes means the whole economical system goes down.

No taxes = no economy. It's basic. A state, a government cannot function without taxes, they are essential for a countrys development.

And because you can't tax zerocoin, most probably governments will outlaw any legal transactions with zerocoins. So exchanges will not be able to trade these coins legally. They will still be used, but their value would be almost 0.

See my point? Which is also where bitcoin is heading if it can't be taxed. If bitcoin is to be universally adopted, it would have to be regulated.

Which kinda sucks. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea.

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May 12, 2013, 04:22:26 AM
 #10

No taxes = no economy. It's basic. A state, a government cannot function without taxes, they are essential for a countrys development.
OMG! We're all gonna die!!!!!

Give me ZeroCoins and hail Discordia. Thanks.

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May 12, 2013, 04:24:18 AM
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Which leads us to the fundamental problem.

Inability to pay taxes means the whole economical system goes down.

No taxes = no economy. It's basic. A state, a government cannot function without taxes, they are essential for a countrys development.

And because you can't tax zerocoin, most probably governments will outlaw any legal transactions with zerocoins. So exchanges will not be able to trade these coins legally. They will still be used, but their value would be almost 0.

See my point? Which is also where bitcoin is heading if it can't be taxed. If bitcoin is to be universally adopted, it would have to be regulated.

Which kinda sucks. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea.

You bring up some valid points about taxes, however I think you overestimate the Governments control if this were to be implemented into Bitcoin. Also, many people feel that the Government wastes our tax dollars on unnecessary policies, this would enable us the people to take back financial control of our government, a truly democratic financial model. Simply make each person pay for what services they need or want. If they don't want protection from the police, they don't have to pay for it. If they don't want to fund a war across the ocean, they don't have to pay for it, etc.

The TOR network for example would be a prime place to have a ZeroCoin/Bitcoin exchange. Even though most tax system run on the honor system, the Government cannot tax you for an amount if they don't know how much it is or who owns it- ZeroCoin makes transactions completely anonymous. As long as the Bitcoin network is safe, then this idea could work if someone was to never exchange into FIAT and just buy things with their Bitcoins. I imagine there will be many many places that accept Bitcoins in about 10 years.

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May 12, 2013, 04:28:10 AM
 #12

Yes but FIAT currency has gold as backup.

Bitcoin has FIAT currency as backup.

Something to report to.

Bitcoin would be worthless without the dollar.

So in order for an exchange to actually work, one would have to exchange these bitcoins into stuff that actually have value, like gold or fiat currency.
Either that, or simply just convert all currency to bitcoins, which would be impossible in the next 50-100 years.
In order for bitcoin to have value, people need to offer services and goods in exchange for bitcoins. Then they need to actually be able to do something with those bitcoins in order to get value out of them (i.e. exchange them for money so they can pay their bills/food/etc.).

Do you see my point?
You can have as many exchanges as you'd like. If it's illegal you won't be able to convert the bitcoins to currency. Which means they would be worthless, as FIAT is what gives everything value.

So the bitcoin idea is fundamentally flawed. Unless it can be taxed.

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May 12, 2013, 04:29:06 AM
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Yes but FIAT currency has gold as backup.
Sure xD

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May 12, 2013, 04:33:32 AM
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Yes but FIAT currency has gold as backup.

Bitcoin has FIAT currency as backup.

Something to report to.

Bitcoin would be worthless without the dollar.

So in order for an exchange to actually work, one would have to exchange these bitcoins into stuff that actually have value, like gold or fiat currency.
Either that, or simply just convert all currency to bitcoins, which would be impossible in the next 50-100 years.
In order for bitcoin to have value, people need to offer services and goods in exchange for bitcoins. Then they need to actually be able to do something with those bitcoins in order to get value out of them (i.e. exchange them for money so they can pay their bills/food/etc.).

Do you see my point?
You can have as many exchanges as you'd like. If it's illegal you won't be able to convert the bitcoins to currency. Which means they would be worthless, as FIAT is what gives everything value.

So the bitcoin idea is fundamentally flawed. Unless it can be taxed.

If every store, everybody, and everything accepted Bitcoin, then there would be no need for FIAT. It's value would still be upheld by the free market and everyone could do with Bitcoin anything they could ever wish to do with FIAT. Bitcoin is only going to get more and more adopted, its popularity is growing at an exponential rate.

Also, since 1971 the dollar is no longer backed by gold or silver.

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May 12, 2013, 04:36:30 AM
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What about people that don't have computers? How do you expect them to pay? ^_^

And every national bank has a gold reserve man. No economy classes ?

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May 12, 2013, 04:37:40 AM
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And if everything accepted bitcoins and nobody paid taxes, how would you pay the state to provide services like: police, emergency services, infrastructure, public services, public buildings, etc?

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May 12, 2013, 04:40:40 AM
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What about people that don't have computers? How do you expect them to pay? ^_^

And every national bank has a gold reserve man. No economy classes ?

They can use FIAT.

Imagine the guy at the cash register saying "cash, debit, credit, or Bitcoin?"  Wink Grin

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May 12, 2013, 04:42:12 AM
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In order for that to happen, you'd have to tax it m8 Smiley

Otherwise tax evasion can happen through the use of bitcoin which won't be accepted by any government.

Of course, once it's taxed, it has to be regulated.

And this is against all that bitcoin stands for.. :-s

But a middle way will probably be found.

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May 12, 2013, 04:42:44 AM
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And if everything accepted bitcoins and nobody paid taxes, how would you pay the state to provide services like: police, emergency services, infrastructure, public services, public buildings, etc?

This is a very libertarianish idea, but it's simple- each person chooses whether they want to have those services. If they do, then they have to pay for them. If they don't, then they won't get the services and don't have to pay for them.

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May 12, 2013, 04:44:04 AM
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In order for that to happen, you'd have to tax it m8 Smiley

Otherwise tax evasion can happen through the use of bitcoin which won't be accepted by any government.

Of course, once it's taxed, it has to be regulated.

And this is against all that bitcoin stands for.. :-s

But a middle way will probably be found.

You think tax evasion is not already happening with Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies?  Cheesy Wink

ZeroCoin would make it even easier. The government would have to change their whole tax infrastructure. Someone would have to pay for each government service they would like to receive.

This is peer to peer, to stop ZeroCoin they would have to kill Bitcoin itself, and with TOR-like services I don't see how it could be stopped considering if Bitcoin was widely accepted.

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