Should ICOs without blockchains be removed from Alternate Cryptocurrencies forum

[rdnkjdi]

I would like to propose that ICOs be removed from the Alternate Currencies forum.

1.). These tokens are not blockchains.

2.). These tokens often have absolutely nothing to do with Cryptocurrency.  For instance one might be a company selling a third of it's start up ventures with a promise to use a third of profits to buy back tokens on exchanges.

3.).  Tokens have essentially turned into a way to bypass the SEC.  I am not talking about alternate blockchain presales with the intent of launching an alternate currency run thru an exchange.  I'm talking about tokens that are not their own blockchain, have no intent on being their own blockchain, are not really even ICOs as they aren't a coin.

I get that alternate currency area of the forums has always been the redheaded stepchild.  But I think banning ICOs that are not and have no intention of being their own chain would be consistent with the forum discussion topic guidelines.

[Lauda]

I think that someone had already proposed something similar recently. I can't find the link though.

1.). These tokens are not blockchains.

Correct.

2.). These tokens often have absolutely nothing to do with Cryptocurrency.  

Technically if they are tokens issued on some currency, then they have something with cryptocurrency.

3.).  Tokens have essentially turned into a way to bypass the SEC.

99% of the ICOs are useless scams, yes. I wonder whether SEC would put pressure on theymos, as this forum is pretty much one of the mediums facilitating most of these sales (that is, once they start cracking down on them).

[hilariousetc]

I would support it just for the mere fact it will get rid of shitcoin ICO spam from signature campaigns. Hundreds of users per campaign and not a single check being done about them. It's not uncommon to find 50+ users all belonging to the same person posting away one after the other or copying and pasting content. Getting tired of it.

I think that someone had already proposed something similar recently. I can't find the link though.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2009415.0

99% of the ICOs are useless scams, yes. I wonder whether SEC would put pressure on theymos, as this forum is pretty much one of the mediums facilitating most of these sales (that is, once they start cracking down on them).

Read somewhere that the SEC has stated they're illegal (no shit) and not to be used by US citizens. I think it's only a matter of time before this forum gets some heat from some sort of scam that was promoted here.

[rdnkjdi]

Since bitcointalk has never been about preventing scams I would like to clarify I AM NOT advocating "doing a quick search to see if an ICO is legitimate" but more of "is this its own blockchain or will be its own blockchain?  No?  Spam/trash"

As a way if making alternate currencies about that vs this hoard of ICO tokens that have absolutely nothing to do with alternative blockchains.

[OgNasty]

I wonder whether SEC would put pressure on theymos, as this forum is pretty much one of the mediums facilitating most of these sales (that is, once they start cracking down on them).

I'm sure theymos would comply with any subpoena he receives. I can't imagine his responsibility goes any further than that.

Bitcoin Savings and Trust being a good example of how this would be handled.

[Wendigo]

Be removed altogether or be contained in a dedicated sub-forum? Complete removal would surely hurt the revenue stream wouldn't it?
Not that I am participating in any ICOs anyways.

[rdnkjdi]

Be removed altogether or be contained in a dedicated sub-forum? Complete removal would surely hurt the revenue stream wouldn't it?
Not that I am participating in any ICOs anyways.

Either is fine with me honestly.  I suspect their own forum would turn into something like the altcoin announcements.  Ignored.  It just seems severely off topic per the current board definition.  I am interested in blockchains.  Ponzi ICO #219 not so much.

I suspect most people in the space feel the same.  An off topic subject has flooded the forum to pump speculations that have NOTHING TO DO with blockchains.  I see literally no downside to banning the ones that are not funding alternate blockchains.  They've essentially hijacked alternate blockchain forum to pump shit that has nothing to do with Cryptocurrencies.

Make them their own forum or ban them all together is my preference.  I don't see how their revenue stream tied to spamming off topic in a cryptocurrency forum is our problem.

[Lauda]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2009415.0

That's the one.

Read somewhere that the SEC has stated they're illegal (no shit) and not to be used by US citizens. I think it's only a matter of time before this forum gets some heat from some sort of scam that was promoted here.

If you classify the tokens as securities, then they are definitely illegal sales.

I wonder whether SEC would put pressure on theymos, as this forum is pretty much one of the mediums facilitating most of these sales (that is, once they start cracking down on them).

I'm sure theymos would comply with any subpoena he receives. I can't imagine his responsibility goes any further than that.

I was thinking more in the lines of: Could or would the SEC force theymos to ban any thread regarding a token sale on the forum.

[BeetcoinScummer]

I was thinking more in the lines of: Could or would the SEC force theymos to ban any thread regarding a token sale on the forum.

That would bring up some serious First Amendment issues. Furthermore, the SEC only has the authority to bring civil action, so this would seem very unlikely.

[Spoetnik]

I sort of agree but would rather see all ICO's separated from the real currencies.
And currencies vs schemes too !

This topic makes me think of ledgers.

theymos will have to comply with US govt request(s) whenever they are submitted.
And i have propose lots since 2013 loudly some of the forum hacks and down times here may have been time for the owner to back up the entire database and hand it to the fed's.

Remember this ? (it mentions "a forum")

https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_virtualcurrencies.pdf



It begins !

[hilariousetc]

Read somewhere that the SEC has stated they're illegal (no shit) and not to be used by US citizens. I think it's only a matter of time before this forum gets some heat from some sort of scam that was promoted here.

If you classify the tokens as securities, then they are definitely illegal sales.

People can call them whatever they want but it doesn't change what they are. You could operate a ponzi scheme using payment in potatoes but it's still a Ponzi at the end of the day and wouldn't stop people from being prosecuted. With crypto or tokens it just seems to be an easier way of running such schemes and being able to get a way with it due to lack or regulation and the relative anonymity of it but this surely wont be the case for ever.

I wonder whether SEC would put pressure on theymos, as this forum is pretty much one of the mediums facilitating most of these sales (that is, once they start cracking down on them).

I'm sure theymos would comply with any subpoena he receives. I can't imagine his responsibility goes any further than that.

I was thinking more in the lines of: Could or would the SEC force theymos to ban any thread regarding a token sale on the forum.

I think they will issue some sort of warning or threat eventually. I don't know what makes this forum immune from essentially hosting ponzis etc but I'm surprised there hasn't been any heat from them yet (or maybe there has and from a legal standpoint the forum is safe... or we will get into trouble at one point).

[Spoetnik]

See my comment right before yours ?
That is warning from years ago i posted here in the Bitcoin section right when it was released.
The SEC and FiNCEN and other US govt agencies considers this shit scammy ass bullshit.
Which is why they fined Ripple.
Why they went to court to get Coinbase to divulge mass records etc.

[rdnkjdi]

I think it's possible the SEC looks at this mess and has decided morons who think government regulators are the ultimate scum of the earth giving their money away to scammers the SEC normally prosecutes is good PR for them.

[Anno MMXVI]

Ethereum is in fact not a standard crypto-currency but rather the fuel of a platform but isn't it an altcoin ? The tokens run on the blockchain, they are just using another established one, and thus they are crypto-currencies. Anything that is a crypto-currency and not Bitcoin is an altcoin, so it has its place there.

[jambola2]

At worst, they could be moved to another forum if they dominate the subforum too much (a la Investor-based Games).

They are based on cryptocurrencies to some degree, and even if they are not actual cryptocurrencies they seem to be of interest to forum members.

[Quickseller]

I am most concerned about the forum advertising for these ICOs as I think this has the most potential to land the forum in hot water.

In RE: the OP/topic, I understand that most of the ICOs use the etherum blockchain to transfer ownership between users, so they belong in the altcoin section as much as any other similar token would.

[iluvpie60]

I don't see why ICOs are allowed here almost at all. What value do they bring to anyone here really, especially when they don't even have a blockchain or a coin ready.

I understand the value of ideas, but when 98% of them fail or become worth almost nothing, should we really allow them? I also understand the freedom of it, if we banned it it would be censorship.

I don't know how to feel about t honestly.

[dillpicklechips]

I don't see why ICOs are allowed here almost at all. What value do they bring to anyone here really, especially when they don't even have a blockchain or a coin ready.

The OP has been specific as to what ICO he is talking about which he stated that those "without blockchains" be banned. In the case of general point of view regarding ICOs, they do bring value in fostering Bitcoin's economy but not as a competitor rather a way to be used to earn bitcoins which I feel no need to enumerate what those are.

I understand the value of ideas, but when 98% of them fail or become worth almost nothing, should we really allow them? I also understand the freedom of it, if we banned it it would be censorship.

I don't know how to feel about t honestly.

So what you are exactly talking about, is it ICO in general or an ICO in specific which the OP mentioned? If ICO in specific like OP mentioned then I agree but if you are talking about ICO in general then no.

Regarding ICO in general, how can we know that they will fail if they are not given the chance to be realized but also we need to filter out those who are real, those who are used to scam, and those who are pointless.

[rdnkjdi]

Yeah what this guy says is key.

The forums have never been about trying to filter scams because the mods can't deal with the sheer quantity and even more importantly the definition of "scam" is not definable.  Some people say Ethereum was a scam.  Some people say Dash was a scam.  Some people have said litecoin is a scam.

I am saying it doesn't matter if it's a scam or not.  If it has NOTHING to do with a blockchain but is just a commodified issued token it is a very clear line to draw in the sand to get rid of a lot of this shit that literally has 0 to do with blockchains.

It's like going to a Ford Stock Ticker forum and pushing bitcoin.  It's off topic and doesn't belong in an "alternate BLOCKCHAIN" forum.  If someone is raising money with a presale to launch alternate blockchain #491 that is mined by killing puppies and uploading videos to youtube then I think it's fine.  If they are a token launching "a 20% share in a coffee production business in Peru" without their own blockchain  then by forum definition it is off topic and should be treated as such.

If there was a "General investment forum" for people wanting to invest/gamble their bitcoin in non blockchain ventures then I think that would be on topic.  Or just ban this non cryptocurrency shit all together.  Either is fine.

[freedomno1]

I'll go with a sub forum option in my opinion as cryptocurrencies evolve we find new spaces are required for different topics and areas, since the original section would get clogged up and it points out to reason to create another subsection addressing the issue that clogs up that space.
Without a blockchain does sounds MLM.