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Author Topic: The real battle and the dark future of bitcoin  (Read 2020 times)
Creeptocrency
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July 24, 2017, 01:40:27 AM
 #21

First, it is going to get really interesting once Bitcoin is at a level of adoption that one doesn't really ever need to exchange to fiat. As it is, when I send a remittance to someone in another country they almost always have to exchange it to fiat in order to use it. That exposes them to third parties and the associated fees. Once they can just use the bitcoin itself to buy food then things will change dramatically. Second, decentralized exchanges will eventually exist for exchanging to other crypto currencies. This will make it so that everyone can keep hold of their funds and never have to deposit them at a centralized third party. Once these two things occur the economic landscape will change dramatically. Power may shift from governments and those who wish to control things to the people.
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July 24, 2017, 01:41:02 AM
 #22

It's your right to defend the government and taxes if you believe it, the point is that here many people don't want it and don't believe on it anymore, as the past experiences weren't good (people pay tax to have low quality services back, people have difficulty to open their businesses as they need to pay lots of fees, people fund dictatorships without their own wish).

Sorry, but the little kid in my opinion is you who believes on this wonderful world of regulamentations and corruption from an elite who created a modern way to "enslave" people. However I agree many people on this decentralized world think only on themselves and don't have any compassion and empathy for each other.
[/quote

Agree, bitcoin is an alternative currency, not centralized but could be regulated such as in Japan that has been legalized bitcoin payment.
There are more-plenty numbers of dark market where they like to use cash-fiat currency because it is fully anonymous, there is no digital trace at all unless they are using banks services Cheesy. Bitcoin isn't fully anonymous and could be traced in some cases, then bitcoin can adapt in every country as long as willing to regulate it. If they don't want to, then we just use it as the way it is such as we do all this time.
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July 24, 2017, 02:04:23 AM
 #23

Also, bitcoin wasn't created and designed SPECIALLY for deep web, they've adopted it because they've seen the opportunity to do so.

They have adopted it ONLY BECAUSE it is untrackable. There is NO other value to bitcoin. Do you see where it is going?? Basically when you buy bitcoin, you are betting on flourishing of darknet and drug trade and even helping it.
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July 24, 2017, 02:15:25 AM
 #24

It's your right to defend the government and taxes if you believe it, the point is that here many people don't want it and don't believe on it anymore, as the past experiences weren't good (people pay tax to have low quality services back, people have difficulty to open their businesses as they need to pay lots of fees, people fund dictatorships without their own wish).

Okay, you don't believe in taxes and guv and many people don't either. Alright so what do we do? Get rid of them? I called it a kid, because there is no thought of consequences. How does bitcoin help these issues? By making the money movement even more untrackable?? You are living in utopia thinking that most bitcoiners have better intentions and ethics than governments and bank. Most people are bad if they are allowed to be. Get it?
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July 24, 2017, 02:25:33 AM
 #25

many people think bitcoin has to within 2 years become the "gigabytes by midnight" concept of replacing all fiat/visa transactions of the world.
over throwing governments etc.

the reality should be that bitcoin should remain outside of government jurisdiction and be more of the 'travellers cheques' replacement. where anyone can access and use them in any country freely without all the tax government bureaucracy.

it doesnt require jumping to 7billion people storing their entire lifetimes wealth on bitcoin. but instead treated as a new separate currency working outside/alongside fiat as a optional choice. something that allows people to privately own without control and works across borders

What do you think of the single transactions running into millions of dollars in a single payment and untraceable? Are these like traveller's cheques? Are YOU going to define and enforce such light-weight usage of bitcoins? Why should they use bitcoin for such large payments, instead of using fiat currency? Can you think of reasons behind these "great-minded" ethical bitcoiners?
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July 24, 2017, 02:26:39 AM
 #26

Fiat is a dam waiting to burst.

yep. but allowing people an open option to move away from the dam(fiat) to dry land(bitcoin) while the dam exists...is the easier option..
 as oppose to throwing dynamite at the dam before the dry land can cope ..

let the dam crack and break all by itself over years to decades. rather than trying to break the dam tonight and then cry that bitcoin(dry land) cant cope because the infrastructure has not been built yet

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July 24, 2017, 02:36:58 AM
 #27

many people think bitcoin has to within 2 years become the "gigabytes by midnight" concept of replacing all fiat/visa transactions of the world.
over throwing governments etc.

the reality should be that bitcoin should remain outside of government jurisdiction and be more of the 'travellers cheques' replacement. where anyone can access and use them in any country freely without all the tax government bureaucracy.

it doesnt require jumping to 7billion people storing their entire lifetimes wealth on bitcoin. but instead treated as a new separate currency working outside/alongside fiat as a optional choice. something that allows people to privately own without control and works across borders
I am in agreement with this. Keeping Bitcoin outside of what the government has jurisdiction over and making sure that, while it can be used anywhere, it keeps value for people outside of the system and somewhere where that value is safe; not exposed to the potential shortcomings or collapses of the typical fiat system. Bitcoin made its debut in 2009, after the financial crisis rocked the United States and some of the rest of the world. Having Bitcoin simply be something that can't be touched by such events would be a lot better than having Bitcoin be at risk for the same events it was designed to defend against.
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July 24, 2017, 02:38:17 AM
 #28

What do you think of the single transactions running into millions of dollars in a single payment and untraceable? Are these like traveller's cheques? Are YOU going to define and enforce such light-weight usage of bitcoins? Why should they use bitcoin for such large payments, instead of using fiat currency? Can you think of reasons behind these "great-minded" ethical bitcoiners?

get your mind out of "gigabytes by midnight"

we dont need to be 7billion people buying chewing gum by tomorrow.. bitcoin was suppose to have bumped up to 2mb by 2011 and then bumped up again a couple times more by now.

w also should not have got into the tx fee war which has pushed out the normal spending utility either. for the same reasons of the last paragraph i just mentioned.

yet even now even with segwit. all that is being promised is the same HOPE of 7tx/s as 8 years ago.(no progress at all)
scare stories of "gigabytes by midnight" are not used to prove 8mb is bad. but used to scare people into thinking anything above 1mb is bad... which is foolish and been debunked.

knowing natural growth of incremental changes over time allows (obviously) natural growth and capability.. is how we should be thinking.
so please dont use extreme circumstances of small or large. and instead think of natural growth over time. then you will see there are no problems

too many people want to scream kill government tonight and get everyone over to bitcoin before sunrise.. which i facepalm.
we need to think grow naturally over time and let people freely move across while governments naturally fail their people and crumble ovr the next few years/decades.

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July 24, 2017, 03:00:52 AM
 #29

If fiat currency is traceable then why can't this so called banks can't track thr robbers that stole from the bank. Everyday there are reported hacks or data breach from this centralized banks but only few of this cases has been resolve. Clearly you dont even know how bitcoin works yes it's secured cause it has a pseudoanonymous function but it that doesn't mean that it's completely untraceable. The reason people prefer using bitcoin is they dont want governments to always in control with their transactions and to prevent third party services like paypal, Andro pay from stalking you and charging from unreasonable fees.

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July 24, 2017, 03:18:17 AM
 #30

If fiat currency is traceable then why can't this so called banks can't track thr robbers that stole from the bank. Everyday there are reported hacks or data breach from this centralized banks but only few of this cases has been resolve. Clearly you dont even know how bitcoin works yes it's secured cause it has a pseudoanonymous function but it that doesn't mean that it's completely untraceable. The reason people prefer using bitcoin is they dont want governments to always in control with their transactions and to prevent third party services like paypal, Andro pay from stalking you and charging from unreasonable fees.

remember what you say here. because with LN you have to join your funds with another party. and that other party can decide not to sign their half unless you pay X. they can blackmail you into wanting to exit the contract by you broadcasting a tx, which they can then broadcast their revoke and take it back (much like chargebacks). so dont think of LN as a solution, it is simply joint bank accounting where the other party can affect you..

plus the way the LN 'routes' are found via LN dns seeds means that in many cases the DNS owners will prefer to send peoples channels via the dns seed owners prefered hub to generate more fee's for that group.

LN is banking/paypal2.0 so please keep your mindset you hav in the quotation above and dont end up being like the other BScartel sheep hoping for LN to be the sole solution for bitcoin


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July 24, 2017, 04:26:11 AM
 #31

It's your right to defend the government and taxes if you believe it, the point is that here many people don't want it and don't believe on it anymore, as the past experiences weren't good (people pay tax to have low quality services back, people have difficulty to open their businesses as they need to pay lots of fees, people fund dictatorships without their own wish).

Okay, you don't believe in taxes and guv and many people don't either. Alright so what do we do? Get rid of them?

I believe there should be places in the world for all kinds of people. Those who believe in Communism should regroup them all and live together, those who believe in Anarchy, should have their place, those who believe in an economical decentralized society the same...

So each group couldn't bother others who don't want to live in the same way. The same for who wants to pay taxes and have public services back and for who doesn't want.

I called it a kid, because there is no thought of consequences. How does bitcoin help these issues? By making the money movement even more untrackable?? You are living in utopia thinking that most bitcoiners have better intentions and ethics than governments and bank. Most people are bad if they are allowed to be. Get it?

I called it a kid because the government lies to you like adults lie to kids.  Cheesy

Bitcoin isn't untraceable. Most people surely don't have good intentions, but they can operate with any currency: Dollar, Ruble, Euro... Bitcoin isn't an exclusivity. Since much time ago there are criminals and until now (even without Bitcoin existence) they weren't finished. So, Bitcoin has nothing to do with it.

And Bitcoin usage doesn't mean Anarchy where people are allowed to do anything/everything...

 
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July 24, 2017, 06:07:19 AM
 #32

No, it is not about your silly scaling issues or other internal politics. The battle I talk about is still far way, but it is inevitable. It is when bitcoin comes out of its darknet markets, its amusing mathematics, its online life and faces the real world of salary payments, utility bills, loan payments, school and college payments, buying home, car, groceries and gadgets. That's how a common man interacts with money and payments.

Bitcoin will never become a normal payment system, until it is so radically changed that Satoshi wouldn't recognize it as bitcoin.

Its economic model is that of a highly speculative gambling token, not as an ideal money.  It is perfect to speculate with, but it cannot stabilize, because of its huge initial seigniorage which has created immensely rich whales that can do anything with the market, and because of its hard issue limit.  That's a disaster as a monetary system ; Satoshi was simply a naive dude who didn't even understand the motivations of sound money doctrine, and applied it in a case where it couldn't work (namely with a NEWLY ISSUED money).

Its proof of wasted economic value also makes it entirely centralized, expensive and wasteful, and highly vulnerable to state control.

Quote
Then the kid finally learns some manners the hard way, and agrees to pay taxes on his bitcoin income. And agrees to show all his transactions. And wallet details. People are now forced to use a single bitcoin address per person and that address is linked to their passport and their other national identities. Every bitcoin transaction must go through a government verification for identifying the parties involved. All good.

All lived happily ever after.

Wait, the kid then wonders - why am I using bitcoin? with all the extra difficulty. Oh, that's because it is mathematically beautiful. isn't it? Those 64 hex letters with random beauty. Ah, I can keep looking at them admiring their beauty forever.

The human society has come a long way through the jungle life, cave life, tribal settlements, civilisations, cities, nations and governments. Bitcoin, while appearing to be ultra high-tech, full with mathematics and cryptography, it is essentially a throw back to jungle life as far as the social life and governance is concerned. Bitcoin abhors governance. It ignores the need to know each other. It rejects monitoring and traceability. It want to break the government and thereby it encourages the law of jungle.

Yes.  You are right.  This is because bitcoin was invented based upon a ridiculous conspiration theory, that "bankers are evil".  Not understanding that monetary things have evolved over time and adapted to human society, and that a naive system like bitcoin misses a lot of what those systems have built into them.  Bitcoin is an brilliant technical implementation of a very naive idea concerning the complexities of payment systems.  And as such, it will live, but not as what it was meant to be, but rather as a gambling token.  Which is what it has been for the last 8 years or so, and will remain.  Which will not mean that it will not be adopted a lot: people will gamble a lot with it.  Some will win, and an equal amount (somewhat more in fact) will lose, and it will waste a lot of value on proof of wasted value.

That said, I liked bitcoin exactly because of its anarchist idea, but it has lost this charm.  My idea was indeed, a subversive payment system that could entirely pervert and subvert all state operation, by bribing politicians, having a fluid murder market on which it would be possible to raise armies in a totally invisible and anonymous way, by financing invisibly the development of new weapons (like biological weapons) all over the earth without anyone noticing in a distributed way and so on.  THIS is why I loved bitcoin in the beginning, because I saw it as a way to ultimately overthrow all forms of publicly organized society.  But bitcoin will not do that.  And within an organized society, it doesn't mean anything else but a gambling token.

Quote
Lack of tracking in money movement clashes with the very existence of government. Enforcing tracking in bitcoin shakes the very foundations of bitcoin. That's the battle I was talking about. The new kid on the block has no way of fighting it. Forget winning. I won't be surprised if all the bitcoin owners could be seen as criminals, and forced to do only darknet transactions forever.

That was my inception from the start: that a dark market would grow so big, that it would overtake and outperform the normal economy, like happened during WWII in Europe.  When most economic activity is actually undercover.  This is the thing I saw for bitcoin.  But it is not anonymous enough.  This is why my interest got later ported to things like monero and other anonymous coins, because only those could have a chance of doing so. 

Outside of anarchy, bitcoin has only a future in gambling.
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July 24, 2017, 06:42:04 AM
 #33

The decentralization on bitcoin doesnt mean being independent from the government but it is a financial decentralization, a decentralization from the corrupt banking system. If bitcoin will be taxable, traceable by the government and must follow the rules and policies of the government then what is wrong with that. It is normal for a currency to be regulated by the state otherwise if it is not regulated it may be banned in the country and a great deal of damage will be brought upon to bitcoin. With the states interfering it means we have the support of the state that they recognize the value of bitcoin and its role on the economy and society but to bring order policies, taxation and regulation must be put in place.

So how do you imagine regulation to be a possibility, if not defeating all the fundamental principles of bitcoin? Start with tracking wallets and addresses.

It has already been regulated with KYC and AML regulations at all points where fiat gets involved. You cannot convert to fiat, through third party services, without being identified or linked to your wallet. The solution : Do not convert to fiat and use Bitcoin as a Peer2Peer payment network, with no third parties. ^smile^

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July 24, 2017, 06:54:30 AM
 #34

I do not really understand the bitcoin in a bright and dark future, because as I see it, the change has happened in the last 3 years, and whether it will be profitable in the future, it is very difficult to predict it.
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July 24, 2017, 07:43:43 AM
 #35

I don't agree that this is a problem, OP.

I don't think that a centralized government is the only way for citizens to be protected, and don't think that the metaphorical "teenager" will ever turn back to a centralized congress to sort out their thievery problems

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July 24, 2017, 08:27:25 AM
 #36

I don't agree that this is a problem, OP.

I don't think that a centralized government is the only way for citizens to be protected, and don't think that the metaphorical "teenager" will ever turn back to a centralized congress to sort out their thievery problems

The kid didn't return to congress to solve his thievery problems. He was forced to come to congress due to myriad of reasons, the same ones which resulted in people having a congress and obey it.
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July 24, 2017, 09:10:56 AM
 #37

All have risks in the eyes of growing money faster, but now many countries have received it. No matter what happens so there is a new impetus.
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July 24, 2017, 09:35:27 AM
 #38

Quote
Those 64 hex letters with random beauty.

I get the '64 hex' . but the 'random beauty' ..


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July 24, 2017, 10:03:58 AM
 #39

Any currency that grows fast always have a risk. Now, few countries are started accepting it. Might be, we are seeing some sort of tracking will be pushed. It remains to be seen, how well we bitcoiners stand against it.

It is not the risk of a currency, it is the risk of the crypto market. Here, everything is not official, but when they are popular, they become expensive. However, the risks are gradually being minimized. Because humans are accepting it.





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Roboabhishek
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July 24, 2017, 10:12:12 AM
 #40

Any currency that grows fast always have a risk. Now, few countries are started accepting it. Might be, we are seeing some sort of tracking will be pushed. It remains to be seen, how well we bitcoiners stand against it.
Yes that's true you can take an example of Digibyte before it was 50sat> per DBG then it went to 2000 sat but sadly now it's 400 sat.
Also, i don't think Bitcoin is a traceable currency unless you use same Address for all your transactions.
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