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Author Topic: Hash Rate Jumps Up 39% In 10 Days. From 71mil to 99mil  (Read 5204 times)
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May 14, 2013, 12:16:25 PM
 #41

Or, since they are very smart, they can grow to 30-40% of the network, and sell remaining inventory at optimal profits, thus ensuring they can stay at 30-40% of the network indefinitely.

The problem with ASICMINER is they're too greedy. They try to squeeze all profit from both ends, leaving nothing for the buyers of their hardware. Well, the sooner we have real alternatives the better. I certainly hope they don't pull any stupid stunts with hashrate, though...

AVALON, you listening?? Start friggin' shipping batches 2 and 3, and the chips PRONTO!

If they are really, really smart, they just keep their hash rate at a certain percentage of the network and let it be done.

There is no real incentive to owning more than 50% of a network that is hurting. There is, however, incentive to have stable ownership of 20-25% of it and adding power every time you fall below a certain. More like "Oh, look, there is the 19,9% , fire up unit 4/100. Oh, there is 19,99%, fire up unit 5/100."

That way, the company keeps a steady, predictable supply of assets without killing the network. Then, the smartest variations is actually saying "Hey, I want 10% of this plus electricity costs for myself."

So people buy shares, they buy equipment, they pay for electricity, take 10% and... profit forever. That is how hedge funds operate and hedge fund managers are arguably some of the richest people in the world.
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May 14, 2013, 03:21:02 PM
 #42

Or, since they are very smart, they can grow to 30-40% of the network, and sell remaining inventory at optimal profits, thus ensuring they can stay at 30-40% of the network indefinitely.

The problem with ASICMINER is they're too greedy. They try to squeeze all profit from both ends, leaving nothing for the buyers of their hardware. Well, the sooner we have real alternatives the better. I certainly hope they don't pull any stupid stunts with hashrate, though...

AVALON, you listening?? Start friggin' shipping batches 2 and 3, and the chips PRONTO!
Yeah, those little USB stick things are a total ripoff, worth maybe a bit less than 1BTC atm. Like I wouldn't pay over $100 USD for one, the hash rate isn't good enough. A cheap video card can do more than 300 MH/s and there is a lot more parts/workmanship in a video card that's for sure!






If this is the type of behaviour we can expect from ASIC miner, they are wayy out of line and should be removed from the equation.

They have total control of the hashrate and it's difficulty to the extent by which they need to flood the market with consumer products to prevent themselves from acquiring a beyond acceptable market share, the fabled 51%.

Don't look at the mining power they have online as their percentage. Couple it with the volume of products they have for sale and the price they are selling them at in Bitcoins (- a small manufacturing fee, there's no non-recurring engineering fee as they paid that off a long time back. Their blades have made their ROI).

The price that they stipulate for their consumer products has nothing to do with what they paid themselves, but what they perceive to be the maximal amount they could acquire from those devices if they chose to mine from them themselves in the interim whilst the competition catches up. In effect by selling at those prices it is the equivalent of mining for themselves regardless. On top of which, of we assume they are 'testing the boards' live; they again meet all manufacturing costs at a minimum. They already, for all intents and purposes have a monopoly by which they can dictate pricing and control the market and are fully displaying their hand by which they intend to act. They have no integrity, and are soley profit orientated. I realise this is a financial organisation, but this is a fledgling currency whose intention is to remain fair for all users.

No one entity should have 5%, let alone 51% of a currency, especially Bitcoin as it is against it's very purpose.

Asicminer have 'put their heads down, remained quiet, and  just got on with it' I've read others state, whilst 'other companies promise, but can't deliver', well with all due respect, Asicminer's behaviour speaks volumes and it's not healthy for Bitcoin. They are 110% attempting to and will centralise the currency as much as they can feasibly get away with...

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May 14, 2013, 03:42:58 PM
 #43

Or, since they are very smart, they can grow to 30-40% of the network, and sell remaining inventory at optimal profits, thus ensuring they can stay at 30-40% of the network indefinitely.

The problem with ASICMINER is they're too greedy. They try to squeeze all profit from both ends, leaving nothing for the buyers of their hardware. Well, the sooner we have real alternatives the better. I certainly hope they don't pull any stupid stunts with hashrate, though...

AVALON, you listening?? Start friggin' shipping batches 2 and 3, and the chips PRONTO!
Yeah, those little USB stick things are a total ripoff, worth maybe a bit less than 1BTC atm. Like I wouldn't pay over $100 USD for one, the hash rate isn't good enough. A cheap video card can do more than 300 MH/s and there is a lot more parts/workmanship in a video card that's for sure!






If this is the type of behaviour we can expect from GPU miners, they are way out of line and should be removed from the equation.

They have total control of the hashrate and it's difficulty to the extent by which they need to flood the market with consumer products to prevent themselves from acquiring a beyond acceptable market share, the fabled 51%.


I thought your post sounded familiar.  Grin

All kidding aside, once ASICs go mainstream, we won't have to worry. It is only the transition period that is a bit delicate.

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May 14, 2013, 03:57:57 PM
 #44

Or, since they are very smart, they can grow to 30-40% of the network, and sell remaining inventory at optimal profits, thus ensuring they can stay at 30-40% of the network indefinitely.

The problem with ASICMINER is they're too greedy. They try to squeeze all profit from both ends, leaving nothing for the buyers of their hardware. Well, the sooner we have real alternatives the better. I certainly hope they don't pull any stupid stunts with hashrate, though...

AVALON, you listening?? Start friggin' shipping batches 2 and 3, and the chips PRONTO!
Yeah, those little USB stick things are a total ripoff, worth maybe a bit less than 1BTC atm. Like I wouldn't pay over $100 USD for one, the hash rate isn't good enough. A cheap video card can do more than 300 MH/s and there is a lot more parts/workmanship in a video card that's for sure!






If this is the type of behaviour we can expect from GPU miners, they are way out of line and should be removed from the equation.

They have total control of the hashrate and it's difficulty to the extent by which they need to flood the market with consumer products to prevent themselves from acquiring a beyond acceptable market share, the fabled 51%.


I thought your post sounded familiar.  Grin

All kidding aside, once ASICs go mainstream, we won't have to worry. It is only the transition period that is a bit delicate.

+1

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May 14, 2013, 04:00:54 PM
 #45

Is this the transition period in which ASICs come online? Or the transition period were upon the price to become involved is beyond the realms of mom n' pops and the majority of society's affordability, to make it worth their while??

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May 14, 2013, 04:04:51 PM
 #46

Is this the transition period in which ASICs come online? Or the transition period were upon the price to become involved is beyond the realms of mom n' pops and the majority of society's affordability, to make it worth their while??

Yup. I remember back in the day in my town we had 2-3 community banks. Now its all national too big to fail banks. Same with convenience stores, ice cream shops, etc. Rich get richer.

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May 14, 2013, 04:19:37 PM
 #47

ASICMiner is the only ASIC company that is doing it right!
Unlike BFL and Avalon, they have hit their deadlines. They are doing a great job and more power to them, I say.

It's smart that they are selling their hardware now instead of mining with it.

And even though I personally believe that the price is too high and won't buy their hardware, people seem to be going crazy for them.

I think we don't have to worry because Avalon and BFL will get their acts together and catch up, especially when the hundreds of thousands of Avalon chips are shipped. ASICMiner will stay have a healthy chunk of the mining power out there, but there will be plenty of competition.

Disclosure: I own ASICMiner shares, I also have BFL machines and Avalon chips on pre-order.
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May 14, 2013, 04:23:08 PM
 #48

Is this the transition period in which ASICs come online? Or the transition period were upon the price to become involved is beyond the realms of mom n' pops and the majority of society's affordability, to make it worth their while??

Yup. I remember back in the day in my town we had 2-3 community banks. Now its all national too big to fail banks. Same with convenience stores, ice cream shops, etc. Rich get richer.

Then we are failing the concept of Bitcoin to distribute the network amongst as many individuals as possible.

The media who hyped Bitcoin, recently are now scaremongering Bitcoin (as expected);

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/69edef9e-bbed-11e2-82df-00144feab7de.html

Mom n' pop (metaphor) are walking away from the recent spotlight shone upon the cryptocurrency as the central banks want them to do. BFL's over promises and delays haven't helped the situation, and it's now becoming more elitist to those contrarian to the mainstream news.

This is not healthy for Bitcoin in the long term.

Mom n' pop needs to be welcomed and encouraged to hold a stake and be actively involved and most importantly have Bitcoin payment methods more widely available to use this currency.

The fixation over ASICs and their insane pricing (in comparison to their actual cost - NRE) is detrimental to the entire project.

There's more money to be made in selling the damn things for Bitcoin.  The price has gotten more stable. It's where after the hype I thought it would be; that magical psychological barrier of 100.
Bouncing between $100 and €100 depending on which continent is more confident on the day.


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May 14, 2013, 04:28:55 PM
 #49

No one entity should have 5%, let alone 51% of a currency, especially Bitcoin as it is against it's very purpose.

...

They are 110% attempting to and will centralise the currency as much as they can feasibly get away with...
The problem is all the naive people jumping on the Bitcoin bandwagon. This is just like 1929.

Cryptocurrency, in its current state of evolution, is a joke. Look at Ripple - they are trying to legitimize what is essentially a pyramid scheme in disguise. I would be shocked if Paypal is stupid enough to get involved.

I tell ya, the death of Bitcoin would probably be for the best. Then maybe we can learn to make a better digital currency.
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May 14, 2013, 04:37:49 PM
 #50

Yeah, those little USB stick things are a total ripoff
If this is the type of behaviour we can expect from ASIC miner, they are wayy out of line and should be removed from the equation.
...
Asicminer have 'put their heads down, remained quiet, and  just got on with it' I've read others state, whilst 'other companies promise, but can't deliver', well with all due respect, Asicminer's behaviour speaks volumes and it's not healthy for Bitcoin. They are 110% attempting to and will centralise the currency as much as they can feasibly get away with...
I usually try to not fuel irrational comments, but please list your concerns about what kind of "behavior" you find irritating in a comprehensible manner. Thanks.

To answer the pricing structure: it is supply-demand based instead of production cost based. However, bitfountain is NOT a non-profit organization, which is why it actually employed free-market valuation in their pricing scheme (auctions were used to determine hashrate/btc cost). If you look closely at the pricing, it is apparent that the free market decided to pay competitive prices for the hashpower/USD when compared to GPU costs, and added a premium for the additional efficiency. Please tell me what other form of price discovery you'd consider more fair?


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May 14, 2013, 04:38:02 PM
 #51

Greed and elitist buying power will remain a constant nonetheless, regardless of the currency...

It's the manufacturers that are allowing this to happen.

BFL may deserve criticism for their dire project management, but their pricing was fair with the foresight at the time.

Avalon and more so Asicminer are pricing whatever they can charge retrospectively.

Greed corrupts and they have succumbed to it.

It's embarrassing to read Yifu's mantra on decentralisation, when he's profiting as much as he is. Obviously I'm not against free market pricing, but if you're justifying your actions one way and then milking the situation another...

Asicminer's behaviour speaks volumes. There is no justification to their pricing. Asics in volume after non reoccuring eng. has taken place are very inexpensive. You should be leading that wave if you believe in Bitcoin and want it's network spread as wide as possible. Regardless of whether Asicminer sell out of units at one price or the other it immediately shuts out a core following and closes the door to newcomers that are required to evolve and keep Bitcoin accessible to all...

I'm including the supposed entry priced 300mhz keyfobs piced at around US$250...they were never at auction.

I do respect you for responding, so please do not mistake my 'irrational comments' as abuse. They are not. I'm just under the assumption (and if it is merely an assumption and not the case then do correct me in the comprehensible manner you expect from me).

I'm under the impression you have made the concious choice to sell ASIC products to forcibly increase the overall hashrate so you can in turn increase your own hashing capabilities and not enter the realms of >51%?

That the blades you have sold were previously working within your rig? They have then by the free market price determination of auctions equal not only a significant return but have covered any loss incurred by not having these blades hashing over a period of time whilst their return was profitable. Therefore regardlesss of their impact upon network hashrate being in your hands you still have gained the reward in Bitcoins as if they were without their hashrate being a factor of your own.

Presumably that frees you up to install more efficient upgraded kit as an replacement. That efficient upgraded kit furthers Asicminer's dominance.

The key fob asics whilst responsibly priced for general members of public, mom n' pops, students that embrace tech that may play a significant role in their future etc, offers no real incentive whatsoever other than enabling you to offload your v1 chip tech and flood the market a little more with ASICs, increasing the networks overall hashrate, so you can justify increasing your own, again, presumably with a more efficient and profitable choice or by developing your own next gen tech.

Asicminer has become a product of it's own success and it's competitors incompetence, no one can blame you for that, but you are now in a position of power, at least for the period that follows and how you behave should be followed closely. I respect that you are a not a not for profit, but you are already a monopoly (out of your good decisons and your rival's bad) and are increasing that position out of choice.

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May 14, 2013, 04:39:26 PM
 #52

Or, since they are very smart, they can grow to 30-40% of the network, and sell remaining inventory at optimal profits, thus ensuring they can stay at 30-40% of the network indefinitely.

The problem with ASICMINER is they're too greedy. They try to squeeze all profit from both ends, leaving nothing for the buyers of their hardware. Well, the sooner we have real alternatives the better. I certainly hope they don't pull any stupid stunts with hashrate, though...

AVALON, you listening?? Start friggin' shipping batches 2 and 3, and the chips PRONTO!

If they are really, really smart, they just keep their hash rate at a certain percentage of the network and let it be done.

There is no real incentive to owning more than 50% of a network that is hurting. There is, however, incentive to have stable ownership of 20-25% of it and adding power every time you fall below a certain. More like "Oh, look, there is the 19,9% , fire up unit 4/100. Oh, there is 19,99%, fire up unit 5/100."

That way, the company keeps a steady, predictable supply of assets without killing the network. Then, the smartest variations is actually saying "Hey, I want 10% of this plus electricity costs for myself."

So people buy shares, they buy equipment, they pay for electricity, take 10% and... profit forever. That is how hedge funds operate and hedge fund managers are arguably some of the richest people in the world.
I'm sorry, but someone who COULD 51% attack the network is just as dangerous as someone who is. A high hashrate does not = stronger network if there's an entity sitting on the sidelines with enough hashpower to overpower the network, regardless of whether they choose to or not.

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May 14, 2013, 04:44:50 PM
 #53

Is this the transition period in which ASICs come online? Or the transition period were upon the price to become involved is beyond the realms of mom n' pops and the majority of society's affordability, to make it worth their while??

Yup. I remember back in the day in my town we had 2-3 community banks. Now its all national too big to fail banks. Same with convenience stores, ice cream shops, etc. Rich get richer.

Only because the community does/did not support them. They may or may not have done things to contribute to this, but unless you support "small" business, the bigger/faster/more efficient companies win out.

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May 14, 2013, 04:52:35 PM
 #54

Ya selling my ASICMINER shares at 1.3 only recently was one of the worst moves I made in a while.. .
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May 14, 2013, 04:54:32 PM
 #55

Is this the transition period in which ASICs come online? Or the transition period were upon the price to become involved is beyond the realms of mom n' pops and the majority of society's affordability, to make it worth their while??

Yup. I remember back in the day in my town we had 2-3 community banks. Now its all national too big to fail banks. Same with convenience stores, ice cream shops, etc. Rich get richer.

Only because the community does/did not support them. They may or may not have done things to contribute to this, but unless you support "small" business, the bigger/faster/more efficient companies win out.

True, but how can mom and pop compete with large companies that has millions to spend on nicer facility, cheaper products etc.

To bring it back with the bitcoin mining world, large operations who have lots of BT will be able to keep growing their farms, pushing out the little guy who cant invest like they do. Will be curious to see how this all pans out in a year.

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May 14, 2013, 05:06:44 PM
 #56

BFL may deserve criticism for their dire project management, but their pricing was fair with the foresight at the time.
bullshit. You probably forgot the time value of money. At that time a BTC was around $10, which puts a Jalapeno at about 15 BTC, or 3 BTC/GH. And that was a PRE-ORDER which turned out to take 9 months to deliver. Bitfountain is selling devices "in stock" at current competitive market value of 50 BTC for 10-13 GH/s, which is <5 BTC/GH and they have comparable efficiencies! Oh - and shipping costs are included (no hidden costs).

Even though I have a conflict of interest, since I am invested in ASICMINER, I'd like to be blunt on this point:
- It's the low pricing structure of BFL which keeps their customers LOCKED IN.
- BFL customers are being victimized by their dishonest business practice.
- BFL has broken many consumer protection practices and you should expect them to get sued over it sooner or later.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
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May 14, 2013, 05:09:37 PM
 #57


double +1... I feel like that jump was called by Asics because a 20 th/s jump in GPU is 34,000 high end GPU~.... that's a lot:)... if it was Asics this will just get worse and worse over time.
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May 14, 2013, 05:42:28 PM
 #58

BFL may deserve criticism for their dire project management, but their pricing was fair with the foresight at the time.
bullshit. You probably forgot the time value of money. At that time a BTC was around $10, which puts a Jalapeno at about 15 BTC, or 3 BTC/GH. And that was a PRE-ORDER which turned out to take 9 months to deliver. Bitfountain is selling devices "in stock" at current competitive market value of 50 BTC for 10-13 GH/s, which is <5 BTC/GH and they have comparable efficiencies! Oh - and shipping costs are included (no hidden costs).

Even though I have a conflict of interest, since I am invested in ASICMINER, I'd like to be blunt on this point:
- It's the low pricing structure of BFL which keeps their customers LOCKED IN.
- BFL customers are being victimized by their dishonest business practice.
- BFL has broken many consumer protection practices and you should expect them to get sued over it sooner or later.

Sorry bud, I actually added to my previous comment whilst you replied here.

Also BFL also accepted dollars, which have remained consistent price wise per machine throughout that time until beg. April. The reasoning behind that increase in price (both dollar and bitcoin) was; 1) their incompetence 2) media driving uninformed speculators 3) they want to lock in their original pre-sales whilst minimising an onslaught of refunds.

I do agree with what followed, although disagree with my earlier post being irrational or incomprehensible, I'm actually very articulate, or at least try to be. Wink

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May 14, 2013, 05:44:20 PM
 #59


Then we are failing the concept of Bitcoin to distribute the network amongst as many individuals as possible.

The media who hyped Bitcoin, recently are now scaremongering Bitcoin (as expected);

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/69edef9e-bbed-11e2-82df-00144feab7de.html

Mom n' pop (metaphor) are walking away from the recent spotlight shone upon the cryptocurrency as the central banks want them to do. BFL's over promises and delays haven't helped the situation, and it's now becoming more elitist to those contrarian to the mainstream news.

This is not healthy for Bitcoin in the long term.

Mom n' pop needs to be welcomed and encouraged to hold a stake and be actively involved and most importantly have Bitcoin payment methods more widely available to use this currency.

The fixation over ASICs and their insane pricing (in comparison to their actual cost - NRE) is detrimental to the entire project.

There's more money to be made in selling the damn things for Bitcoin.  The price has gotten more stable. It's where after the hype I thought it would be; that magical psychological barrier of 100.
Bouncing between $100 and €100 depending on which continent is more confident on the day.


Greed is  mighty mighty force. As the farms get larger, i expect to see more people get disenfranchised with BTC. Im thinking BTC price will drop as all these asics come on line. These large operations are taking BTC out of the hands of people who want to hold BTC and into those who need to sell it to pay for equipment and electricity and nice cars. Oh well, we'll see i guess.

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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709114.0
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May 14, 2013, 07:15:13 PM
 #60

I usually try to not fuel irrational comments, but please list your concerns about what kind of "behavior" you find irritating in a comprehensible manner. Thanks.

Greed and elitist buying power will remain a constant nonetheless, regardless of the currency...
It's the manufacturers that are allowing this to happen.

Avalon and more so Asicminer are pricing whatever they can charge retrospectively.
Believe it or not - Pricing was an issue on the board discussions and the consensus was that using auctions and free market value would be the fairest solution - both for equity holders (ASICMINER equity is traded in anticipation of future earnings) and the buyers.

Also, the company is well aware of the problems of a monopoly. Monopolies can happen in two ways: 1) Corrupting free markets and eliminating competition 2) Outperforming competition. If you disagree with bitfountain being 2) please explain.
The "problems" of a monopoly in bitcoin mining are the apparent 51% issues. To mitigate that fact, bitfountain is pushing the excess portion of the produced hashpower (against an internal goal) into the market.

Greed corrupts and they have succumbed to it.
This is a problem of the shareholder culture. Neither me, nor you will change that. Complaining about it may be honorable, but it's something you won't be able to change.

It's embarrassing to read Yifu's mantra on decentralisation, when he's profiting as much as he is. Obviously I'm not against free market pricing, but if you're justifying your actions one way and then milking the situation another...
Please provide a reference and the specific quote which upsets you.

Asicminer's behaviour speaks volumes. There is no justification to their pricing. Asics in volime after non reoccuring eng. has taken place are very inexpensive. You should be leading that wave if you believe in Bitcoin and want it's network spread as wide as possible. Regardless of whether Asicminer sell out of units at one price or the other it immediately shuts out a core following and closes the door to newcomers that are required to evolve and keep Bitcoin accessible to all...
You forget that bitfountain has to answer to their shareholders. Selling off company value at discount prices is not in the best interest of the equity holders. It may sound like an excuse - but it's a good one.

I'm including the supposed entry priced 300mhz keyfobs piced at around US$250...they were never at auction.
The block erupter (blades) were auctioned off to determine a price point in terms of GH/BTC. The pricing of 2 BTC fits well within that range. The blades are 10-20% more cost efficient, but the USB sticks are more versatile. That said - I agree that 2 BTC is pretty heavy and will deter a lot of casual miners.

I do respect you for responding, so please do not mistake my 'irrational comments' as abuse. They are not. I'm just under the assumption (and if it is merely an assumption and not the case then do correct me in the comprehensible manner you expect from me).
I understand it's upsetting to see some people making a lot of money, when all you can do is standing on the side lines, waiting for the next opportunity to come along. The "irrationality" in your comment was referring to your play on "greed", which I think is misplaced in this circumstance. You are correct in your assessment though that the developments which take place right now are precursors to a divide in the funding structure of bitcoin mining. Only informed and connected people will profit from future growth in the bitcoin mining industry. Endusers, which may be the most important part of the decentralization concept, are at the end of the profitability food chain. For that reason competition is important - on a global scale.

I'm under the impression you have made the concious choice to sell ASIC products to forcibly increase the overall hashrate so you can in turn increase your own hashing capabilities and not enter the realms of >51%?
I am not a representative of bitfountain. But yes - the idea for bitfountain is to scale with the network. Thus increasing the network allows you to also increase yourself. And providing the necessary equipment for the network is a profitable business.

That the blades you have sold were previously working within your rig? They have then by the free market price determination of auctions equal not only a significant return but have covered any loss incurred by not having these blades hashing over a period of time whilst their return was profitable. Therefore regardlesss of their impact upon network hashrate being in your hands you still have gained the reward in Bitcoins as if they were without their hashrate being a factor of your own.
I am not clear on the details. But I assume all sold blades have been at least tested. Yes - the ROI of a device is a function of the current hashpower of the network, thus the early time has more weight.

Presumably that frees you up to install more efficient upgraded kit as an replacement. That efficient upgraded kit furthers Asicminer's dominance.
The efficiency argument can be countered with the relatively high cost of electricity at bitfountain HQ. So a customer of bitfountain can still outcompete them with respect to cost of upkeep.

The key fob asics whilst responsibly priced for general members of public, mom n' pops, students that embrace tech that may play a significant role in their future etc, offers no real incentive whatsoever other than enabling you to offload your v1 chip tech and flood the market a little more with ASICs, increasing the networks overall hashrate, so you can justify increasing your own, again, presumably with a more efficient and profitable choice or by developing your own next gen tech.
While I am a fan of decentralization, you have to be aware of the fact that not all miners are equal. Most miners do not have the time or capability to be on top of recent developments in bitcoin. It is generally better if control is exerted by group of selected representatives which can be voted for, similar to how democratic government works. As such, maybe the best ecosystem is the one of a variety of mining pools, where people can withdraw their hashing power immediately.
That said - you're mixing efficiency arguments with decentralization arguments. These are two different problems.

Asicminer has become a product of it's own success and it's competitors incompetence, no one can blame you for that, but you are now in a position of power, at least for the period that follows and how you behave should be followed closely. I respect that you are a not a not for profit, but you are already a monopoly (out of your good decisons and your rival's bad) and are increasing that position out of choice.
Yes - that I agree with.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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