We are being used.

[Fatoshi]

So many of these ICOs are really outsiders who have no interest in crypto but just want to grab from the pool of the crypto community.

I look at many of them and they are just fucking bankers who have hired a crypto developer to make a grab for the crypto community's money. Here is a perfect example, why do they need the blockchain to start a hedge fund?


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2003741.0


I'm not against all ICO's but most are just using us as a crypto community. Until we refuse to be ass raped by these banking interests we are destined to lose money to them. We need to invest in projects that are pure crypto and not get all wet pants about any project involving some big money interests. We all lose then, they win.


BTW play spot the crypto nerd among the bankers selling out in the pictures of the team!

[bathrobehero]

How do you propose we fight them off?

[Fatoshi]

How do you propose we fight them off?

I just added a point before you posted. Its simple we say fuck off to big banking interests just in the same way we say fuck off to any scammer. I mean did we ever have any problem avoiding any project with a 10% premine? Some of these projects are like 100% premine in essence!!!




People in crypto need to remember why crypto was invented and it sure as hell wasn't to boost the profits of bankers. I'm sick of people getting excited when they hear some bank or Amazon etc is sniffing around a project. Fuck them lets build our own future not run after them.


Of course you can't stop people but people should be starting to see now that once they see half the team are bankers and not in anyway connected to the crypto community then they should collectively avoid them cause the money won't be going to investors but them.

[negancoin]

I know that and I dont give a damn! I use those ICOs to increase my BTC.

[Fatoshi]

I know that and I dont give a damn! I use those ICOs to increase my BTC.

Really? when most new ICOs have lost money for people.....are you a wizard?


Oh yeah also I dont give a fuck about you. Cause your thinking fucks us all in the long term.

[bathrobehero]

I know that and I dont give a damn! I use those ICOs to increase my BTC.

Funny how everyone who gambles with ICOs claims they're making profits. Who's losing then?

[jnow]

I'm with you on this one. Those smiling guys sure do inspire a lot of confidence  as they can smell the free money coming their way 

Unfortunately there seems to be a steady and increasing supply of naive (and greedy) people who can be easily sold a turd.

[One Man Band]

In the game you're either a wolf or a sheep.

And we all know which ones the bankers' are

[Fatoshi]

Look I'm not even being that altruistic or idealist. I'm saying we as a crypto community are giving our wealth over to people outside the community who are already stupidly rich. If we start saying no to these ICO's for one it will be fun seeing bankers get like 20btc on some big planned money grab and also if we invest in real internal crypto projects we can be the ones reaping the benefits of the surge in crypto outside money coming in.



I guess this will need to take a collective a ah! moment to realise we all will do a lot better with this thinking.


I have to be careful cause I will be called a shill. Here is a good example projects like IOTA even though i didn't invest at the least the guy was from the internal crypto community and if big money interests get involved they came to us. Also the internal crypto investors of IOTA were the ones who got rich at least not some outside wankers. This means even more money pool inside crypto not money being siphoned off that will never come back into crypto.

Disclaimer I dont like IOTA that much and still think its over priced and dont own any.

[solarrobot]

There is a big need for ICO certifications/ratings based on criteria which create fair and safe ICO practices. Legitimate projects should not being pulling moneygrabs, but in a world with no regulations and a bunch of sheep, there is no reason for new projects to do anything but get the most cash possible.

There are some organizations starting to do reports on ICOs doing detailed research and giving them a rating, but some of these charge for the detailed report. I don't know why someone with some weight in the community hasn't stepped forward with some kind of plan to solve this issue.

[Fatoshi]

There is a big need for ICO certifications/ratings based on criteria which create fair and safe ICO practices. Legitimate projects should not being pulling moneygrabs, but in a world with no regulations and a bunch of sheep, there is no reason for new projects to do anything but get the most cash possible.

There are some organizations starting to do reports on ICOs doing detailed research and giving them a rating, but some of these charge for the detailed report. I don't know why someone with some weight in the community hasn't stepped forward with some kind of plan to solve this issue.

Legislation ALWAYS helps the big guy not the little crypto developer.

[Fatoshi]

What if projects did at least 50% airdrops? or at least a big airdrop?

I could handle they get 50m if the other 50m worth of coins went into crypto community...


If we think of Imo just like mining and premises and judge them on how much they clearly want to grab we could improve the situation i think.

[jnow]

Look I'm not even being that altruistic or idealist. I'm saying we as a crypto community are giving our wealth over to people outside the community who are already stupidly rich. If we start saying no to these ICO's for one it will be fun seeing bankers get like 20btc on some big planned money grab and also if we invest in real internal crypto projects we can be the ones reaping the benefits of the surge in crypto outside money coming in.



I guess this will need to take a collective a ah! moment to realise we all will do a lot better with this thinking.


I have to be careful cause I will be called a shill. Here is a good example projects like IOTA even though i didn't invest at the least the guy was from the internal crypto community and if big money interests get involved they came to us. Also the internal crypto investors of IOTA were the ones who got rich at least not some outside wankers. This means even more money pool inside crypto not money being siphoned off that will never come back into crypto.

Disclaimer I dont like IOTA that much and still think its over priced and dont own any.

So you're thinking something along the lines of a grassroots movement within the crypto community?

I guess making people aware of the situation is the first step. Point the frauds out.

[Fatoshi]

Look I'm not even being that altruistic or idealist. I'm saying we as a crypto community are giving our wealth over to people outside the community who are already stupidly rich. If we start saying no to these ICO's for one it will be fun seeing bankers get like 20btc on some big planned money grab and also if we invest in real internal crypto projects we can be the ones reaping the benefits of the surge in crypto outside money coming in.



I guess this will need to take a collective a ah! moment to realise we all will do a lot better with this thinking.


I have to be careful cause I will be called a shill. Here is a good example projects like IOTA even though i didn't invest at the least the guy was from the internal crypto community and if big money interests get involved they came to us. Also the internal crypto investors of IOTA were the ones who got rich at least not some outside wankers. This means even more money pool inside crypto not money being siphoned off that will never come back into crypto.

Disclaimer I dont like IOTA that much and still think its over priced and dont own any.

So you're thinking something along the lines of a grassroots movement within the crypto community?

I guess making people aware of the situation is the first step. Point the frauds out.

I guess so but grassroots sounds so communist. I'm just saying we should foster a culture we had about past projects we saw as money grabbers so new ICO team can't think they can take all the money and leave investors screwed. Its simple we insist they do things like airdrop for a certain percentage of coins. Soon they all ICO's will do them knowing they won't get our interest if they dont. Its kind of like consumer power, once people start saying no to something they very quickly change.


The other option is continue having ICOs that make no money for investors.

[Herbert2020]

in my opinion ICO scam will have the same fate as pre-mine scam.
they are effectively the same thing. you get a lot of money out of nowhere. in pre-mine you at least had to do something about the coin and pump its price to be able to make the most profit but in ICO things have gotten easier for scammers! they get paid in something else, and that something else needs to keep its price up! as a result they don't give a rats ass about their own project...

but eventually all these things will die. and right now it is starting. a new wave of newbies are coming and asking "how do i make my own ICO" that leads to 1000 shit that people lose a lot on and will leave this method of "gambling" alone.

[solarrobot]

Legislation ALWAYS helps the big guy not the little crypto developer.

Who said anything about legislation?

 I said we need rating organizations and different kinds. This could be (should be) done with community feedback.  Requirements around the structure of ICOs can be researched and if an ICO meets these criteria it gets a stamp of approval, if it doesn't meet requirements it gets no stamp of approval.

This doesn't stop any one from participating in ICO's that don't meet these requirements, but creates a social barrier for riskier ico structures.

[Fatoshi]

in my opinion ICO scam will have the same fate as pre-mine scam.
they are effectively the same thing. you get a lot of money out of nowhere. in pre-mine you at least had to do something about the coin and pump its price to be able to make the most profit but in ICO things have gotten easier for scammers! they get paid in something else, and that something else needs to keep its price up! as a result they don't give a rats ass about their own project...

but eventually all these things will die. and right now it is starting. a new wave of newbies are coming and asking "how do i make my own ICO" that leads to 1000 shit that people lose a lot on and will leave this method of "gambling" alone.

I do have faith in the market too. But I think as long as there is a little bit of cheese for newbie investors they will keep biting. Its sad many newbies are seeing a success if they make 30% ROI when a big crypto success with a market cap in the 100m's should of made a lot of us rich. The more money internaly the more power crypto people will have.

[bathrobehero]

There is a big need for ICO certifications/ratings based on criteria which create fair and safe ICO practices. Legitimate projects should not being pulling moneygrabs, but in a world with no regulations and a bunch of sheep, there is no reason for new projects to do anything but get the most cash possible.

There are some organizations starting to do reports on ICOs doing detailed research and giving them a rating, but some of these charge for the detailed report. I don't know why someone with some weight in the community hasn't stepped forward with some kind of plan to solve this issue.

No such thing as fair and safe crypto friendly ICO - either you have to blindly trust the team behind an ICO (e.g gamble) or you have to have them verified and accountable. Both of those things are completely against crypto.


Going one step further, premine in any form (ICO, airdrop, bounties, etc) is not acceptable.


If a group needs funding they should use their own money if they're confident (if not then why bother) or get it from the outside, not tied into the project via coins or tokens.


And if they want ongoing funding, they should use the model which automatically transfers a set percentage of each blocks' reward to a dev address.

[Spoetnik]

ICO = SCAM

I have laid out countless reasons why .. all of which are ignored.
Why ?
MONEY.

The thing is people with MORE money make LOTS..
Then the little guys co-op the "coin" for a small slice of profits..
..regardless if the "scheme" is legit.

I have pointed out the problem here endlessly and no one cares and no one will comment.
Aside from GTFO.
And why do i have to ?
Shouldn't the greedy hoards of losers here showing up leave ?
They will eventually anyway when they made some money then lost all of it eventually ?

It's a greedy economy in a lawless scammy environment.
And greedy does not end well.

Lecturing these guys is a waste of time.
The best that is going to happen is you will make a smarter scammer and more clever greedy profiteer.

My criticsims here for fours straight years helped these scammer evolved their craft.
OI helped them hone their little game down to a fine science.
@OP you may have recently started posting topics like this but i have been doing it 24/7 for 4 years an i helped theses douche bags evolve and fine tune their scam game.
What have i seen since ?
A never ending list of legends eaten up by greed.
A who's who of Bitcointalk that all lined up for thefts, corruption, greedy etc.

Money and power corrupts which is why i refuse to advocate ICO's.
It is a massive downgrade from the initial distribution of BTC.
If it is not improving on Bitcoins system then it is in fact pure garbage and should be avoided.
REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH YOU *COULD* MAKE OF THEM.

When i came today i seen the headline theymos put in about the BIP at the top of the page.
I right away was thinking about who CONTROLS Bitcoin.
Then i seen the Altcoin section.
ICO = CENTRALIZATION
And worse.. much much worse.

There is nothing to say.
Nothing to debate.
This is now the scam section.. it's the norm now.
Things changed years ago and Bitcointalk is long dead.
It's a farce now.. a sleazy charade of Greed.
What we see is a decentralized system 51% attacked by bag greedy losers.
This people is the result... a hot dumpster fire of greed.

[solarrobot]

No such thing as fair and safe crypto friendly ICO - either you have to blindly trust the team behind an ICO (e.g gamble) or you have to have them verified and accountable. Both of those things are completely against crypto.


Going one step further, premine in any form (ICO, airdrop, bounties, etc) is not acceptable.


If a group needs funding they should use their own money if they're confident (if not then why bother) or get it from the outside, not tied into the project via coins or tokens.


And if they want ongoing funding, they should use the model which automatically transfers a set percentage of each blocks' reward to a dev address.

ICO = SCAM

I have laid out countless reasons why .. all of which are ignored.
Why ?
MONEY.

The thing is people with MORE money make LOTS..
Then the little guys co-op the "coin" for a small slice of profits..
..regardless if the "scheme" is legit.

...

Um, there is no way to stop ICOs from taking place, so this line of thinking gets absolutely nowhere.

There are plenty of legitimate cases in the crypto world that started with ICO's... Ethereum being a case and point.  It's a different world since that time though, and the model they used for an ICO is no longer legitimate.

ICO Funds need to self be ESCROWED, and ICO's need to layout their own payout and development plan.  If promises aren't kept then people need to be able to withdraw their remaining share from the escrow (can't withdraw what is already spent).   The crypto world has the solution to it's own problems in it's own hands... Smart contracts can go a long way towards making ICO's fair and safe.