Scalability issues and why Bitcoin ABC (aka Bitcoin Cash) is gonna take over

[JohnMacaron]

    We all know that bitcoin in its present form has completely failed, you can wait for hours on end and never get your final confirmation because of stuffed-up greedy miners that feel themselves not so saturated by block rewards and instead of dilating arteries of bitcoin ecosystem by increasing block limit, they avidly congesting them with high fees and unreliability of network as a whole. Many people are defecting to other means of payment and bitcoin is flipped off.

   It's pretty interesting to know what Mike Hearn had to say about this issue even before network has got congested like toilet pipe. He says exactly as follows:
"Think about it. If you had never heard about Bitcoin before, would you care about a payments network that:
Couldn’t move your existing money
Had wildly unpredictable fees that were high and rising fast
Allowed buyers to take back payments they’d made after walking out of shops, by simply pressing a button (if you aren’t aware of this “feature” that’s because Bitcoin was only just changed to allow it)
Is suffering large backlogs and flaky payments
… which is controlled by China
… and in which the companies and people building it were in open civil war?
I’m going to hazard a guess that the answer is no".     I think 'tis very good description of current state of things.

    Why, Mike suggested, block size is not being increased while it should? "Because the block chain is controlled by Chinese miners, just two of whom control more than 50% of the hash power. At a recent conference over 95% of hashing power was controlled by a handful of guys sitting on a single stage(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVhkEhtUAAAl0LH.jpg). The miners are not allowing the block chain to grow."  https://blog.plan99.net/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7.

    He explains that thanks to Chinese Great Firewall, miners in China cannot process transactions with high-limited blocks fast enough, so their decided to drop users in game of endless fee raises instead of normally scaling system.

    But some people are seeming to be tired of this endless bullshit and taking actions. Bitmain (which has something about 20% of all hashpower in bitcoin system) is promoting its new protocol called Bitcoin ABC in form of its implementation named Bitcoin Cash. It will raise artificially put limit of 1Mb size blocks to initially 8Mb and after that even farther and will return Bitcoin its place under the sun (by now we have figures that claim smth about 50% drop in use of bitcoin globally). You all know that Gavin Andresen acknowledged in Craig Wright the real Satoshi Nakamoto and he did it outright. Craig Wright, in his turn, said without any subterfuges that "We want to remove the block cap. We want to have non Segwit pool... And we going to create pool that will not run Segwit [audible burst of clapping here] and if we see Segwit transactions we'll reject them". https://youtu.be/v1_gxvx_QGo?t=39m25s

     Also he speaks about special requirements for people who want to run new Bitcoin ABC node, mentioning that Raspberry Pi is not most appropriate piece of equipment to run a node and u eventually will need to buy some macchine that might cost u 20k$ and says that "if u will not do this, if u will not help this network and if u will not take this thing this thing that has given to YOU the financial sovereignty, YOU financial freedom, YOU financial independence and help other people by spending a little bit of money on a decent network: FUCK OFF!!!". https://youtu.be/v1_gxvx_QGo?t=13m30s  By saying these he alludes on allegations of some people that if we'll increase block size, some people will be not able to process them.

    Gavin Andresen, Jihan Wu(head of Bitmain and Antpool), Mike Hearn and Craig Wright, supposed to be Satoshi, are all for much higher than 2mb block increase, why are we not??

[JohnMacaron]

It's sheer speculation to blow up prices of currency which is not used to actually buy things.

[Yuhee]

In some ways box is helpful but it was from the original team i guess we just have to wait if segwit will become successful because that is where to next era of btc will depend on. I can see that some are agreeable on the segwit but many have split decisions on the hardfork. How much more if segwit2x can not be fully functional.

[BrewMaster]

here is what you should do if you are not happy with bitcoin: https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+create+my+own+altcoin

[JohnMacaron]

People who are creating Bitcoin Cash are big miners: namely, Bitmain and Craig Wright and they're fully supported by Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn and Roger Ver. They have right to choose destiny for Bitcoin, cause Segwit2x is ain't gonna do shit about current situation.
Kraken is also supporting BCC (which it calls BCH - Bitcoin CasH)
http://blog.kraken.com/post/1150/bitcoin-cash-and-a-critical-alert-for-bitcoin-margin-traders/

[DaMut]

People who are creating Bitcoin Cash are big miners: namely, Bitmain and Craig Wright and they're fully supported by Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn and Roger Ver. They have right to choose destiny for Bitcoin, cause Segwit2x is ain't gonna do shit about current situation.
Kraken is also supporting BCC (which it calls BCH - Bitcoin CasH)
http://blog.kraken.com/post/1150/bitcoin-cash-and-a-critical-alert-for-bitcoin-margin-traders/

yeah Bitcoin destiny ? i don't believe it,they can not handle the thing very well and you said they have right to choose destiny for Bitcoin ?
after some of them shilling about Bitcoin back then in 2016ish?
and supporting another shit Bitcoin type such as Bitcoin Unlimited ?
because they're a 'big miners' doesn't mean they have the right to choose 'the destiny',
i hate that kind of hypocrite,everybody hate that kind of human dude.

Bitcoin Core,Bitcoin Unlimited,Bitcoin Cash,Bitcoin Abcd until Bitcoin Z.

[khufuking]

I stopped reading after this sentence . "We all know that bitcoin in its present form has completely failed, you can wait for hours on end and never get your final confirmation "

We all know that the delay was because even 1- you are very cheap and want to pay almost no fee to move your money 2- the big spam attack that was happening .

Now the real question is how far Jihan Wu and others can tank the dump of the new alt coin    . Most people treat this new alt as an free airdrop nothing more.

[findingthemoon]

I don't get what is wrong with the current compromise, SegWit AND higher block size.

Other solutions like LN can help alleviate some of the burden on the blockchain as well and we can look towards further block size increases as necessary rather than jumping the gun now on something that is untested.

[JorisK]

   We all know that bitcoin in its present form has completely failed [CUT]

Your first words in your first line you go wrong immediately. Please speak for yourself, not for me. And stop talking about complete bullshit like 'waiting a day for confirmation".

Bitcoin ABC/BCC/Whatever will never take over. The only reason miners mine, is because of the value of BTC. Who decides over the value? The community, not developers, not miners. Why does the community believe in BTC? Because it's development team consists about a lot highly intelligent people that develop the coin together with the community and stay away as long as possible from hardforking. The value of BTC comes from it's outstanding development team, and the fact that your bitcoins will be still bitcoins tomorrow, next week, next year and so on. Bitcoin will only become more efficient, but will never change. This all, is completely the opposite of what Bitcoin Cash stands for. (a rushed fork developed by 1 lone wolf and backed by a few people)


Yes, geographically it is more centralized, and with bigger blocks it gets even more centralized then it already is. But the fact is that the community doesn't really care about this, as they know miners won't shoot themselves in their foot by blowing up BTC (and thus their own money). You are against centralization, but yet you support ABC with its bigger (unnecessary) blocks? Bigger blocks mean the end of a lot of miners and more monopoly for Bitmain.

I bet, with BTC getting more and more part of society, sooner or later government will step in and mining no longer will be something for just companies like Bitmain.

Bitcoin Cash has NOTHING helping the community with a better and efficient coin, it has EVERYTHING to do with repulsive GREED that a few of us in the community have (Hello Roger and Jihan).

This new 'altcoin' will drop fast, and another attempt to hijack BTC will fail. The more they fail, the stronger BTC gets out of it.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Bitcoin Cash is going to be a huge flop, very few exchanges are showing support for it. Expect it to die a slow, painful death.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2051267.0

[JohnMacaron]

People who are creating Bitcoin Cash are big miners: namely, Bitmain and Craig Wright and they're fully supported by Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn and Roger Ver. They have right to choose destiny for Bitcoin, cause Segwit2x is ain't gonna do shit about current situation.
Kraken is also supporting BCC (which it calls BCH - Bitcoin CasH)
http://blog.kraken.com/post/1150/bitcoin-cash-and-a-critical-alert-for-bitcoin-margin-traders/

yeah Bitcoin destiny ? i don't believe it,they can not handle the thing very well and you said they have right to choose destiny for Bitcoin ?

They're not handling bitcoin Core right now, that's why people leaving Bitcoin as means of payment.

I stopped reading after this sentence . "We all know that bitcoin in its present form has completely failed, you can wait for hours on end and never get your final confirmation "

We all know that the delay was because even 1- you are very cheap and want to pay almost no fee to move your money 2- the big spam attack that was happening .

Now the real question is how far Jihan Wu and others can tank the dump of the new alt coin    . Most people treat this new alt as an free airdrop nothing more.

Delay is because Bitcoin in current state can handle smth about 3 txps and Visa as well as Mastercard can handle 56 THOUSAND txps [hink about it

[Iranus]

Right, so let's summarise this post of yours:

   Why, Mike suggested, block size is not being increased while it should? "Because the block chain is controlled by Chinese miners, just two of whom control more than 50% of the hash power.

    But some people are seeming to be tired of this endless bullshit and taking actions. Bitmain (which has something about 20% of all hashpower in bitcoin system) is promoting its new protocol called Bitcoin ABC in form of its implementation named Bitcoin Cash.

Why is the block size not being increased?  Because there are Chinese people with monopolies over mining.
How to increase the block size?  Get the support of the Chinese mining monopoly BITMAIN.

Now I find this whole thing of discussing "the Chinese" (as if they're one entity) very annoying, so I usually steer clear of agreeing with people's arguments and conspiracy theories that Chinese miners are attacking Bitcoin and trying to take it over or something.  Still, the hypocrisy in this thread is astoundingly obvious.

[JohnMacaron]

   We all know that bitcoin in its present form has completely failed [CUT]

Bitcoin Cash has NOTHING helping the community with a better and efficient coin, it has EVERYTHING to do with repulsive GREED that a few of us in the community have (Hello Roger and Jihan).

Oh, yeah? And maybe RPF option is driven by charity and generosity, not by fucken greed?? Small blocks = high fees. And i'm not 100% sure, but high fees sounds like pure avidity to me.

Right, so let's summarise this post of yours:

   Why, Mike suggested, block size is not being increased while it should? "Because the block chain is controlled by Chinese miners, just two of whom control more than 50% of the hash power.

    But some people are seeming to be tired of this endless bullshit and taking actions. Bitmain (which has something about 20% of all hashpower in bitcoin system) is promoting its new protocol called Bitcoin ABC in form of its implementation named Bitcoin Cash.

Why is the block size not being increased?  Because there are Chinese people with monopolies over mining.
How to increase the block size?  Get the support of the Chinese mining monopoly BITMAIN.

Now I find this whole thing of discussing "the Chinese" (as if they're one entity) very annoying, so I usually steer clear of agreeing with people's arguments and conspiracy theories that Chinese miners are attacking Bitcoin and trying to take it over or something.  Still, the hypocrisy in this thread is astoundingly obvious.

No, no u've got me wrong. I just explained his position not mine. I think that block size increase is good and if Bitmain or whoever else gonna implement this that's sounds equally good for me. I'm not pro or contra chinese control over Bitcoin, I just want Bitcoin be globally scalable and with low fees transactions = to be succesful.

[European Central Bank]

and who created bitcoin's scaling 'crisis'?

the people who are creating bitcoin cash most likely.

and they're gonna continue spamming the segwit chain in an attempt to drive people to bitcoin cash.

i have zero interest in giving control to people like that.

[JohnMacaron]

and who created bitcoin's scaling 'crisis'?

the people who are creating bitcoin cash most likely.

and they're gonna continue spamming the segwit chain in an attempt to drive people to bitcoin cash.

i have zero interest in giving control to people like that.

UCPunk u got it all wrong. When some of this people were at the helm of Bitcoin there weren't such a grievous scalability issues. And now when these issues tearing most active part of Bitcoin users apart by unreliability of network, we need Bitcoin to go in right direction, namely to allow for all of the people of the world use Biitcoin for whatever their purpose is. Buying, selling, remittances u name it. It requires more capacity, higher block size cap, with segwit and 2Mb block size we're lost and Bitcoin will eventually lose all of its market cap.

[JorisK]

   We all know that bitcoin in its present form has completely failed [CUT]

Bitcoin Cash has NOTHING helping the community with a better and efficient coin, it has EVERYTHING to do with repulsive GREED that a few of us in the community have (Hello Roger and Jihan).

Oh, yeah? And maybe RPF option is driven by charity and generosity, not by fucken greed?? Small blocks = high fees. And i'm not 100% sure, but high fees sounds like pure avidity to me.

You are plain stupid or act plain stupid, I'm sorry for being rude.

BTC was not made so people can make money, but to free people from Central Banks that control the value of (FIAT) money, and thus them control your wealth with a few buttons. BTC was made so we have total freedom and total ownership of our money, safe and secure. It is NOT made and never has been made for people to make money out of it. That does not mean that you CAN make money out of it (hodling / trading / whatsoever)

And small blocks = high fees is total bullshit comparison. I can fill up one 8MB block with two transactions, apply your theory and thus big blocks = monstrous fees. Complete horseshit. BTC mempool looks perfectly fine and adding Segwit makes the network a lot more efficient. More efficiency = lower fees.

[JorisK]

Bitcoin Cash is going to be a huge flop, very few exchanges are showing support for it. Expect it to die a slow, painful death.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2051267.0

It will only be painful for people like this topicstarter, not for us

[JorisK]

I don't get what is wrong with the current compromise, SegWit AND higher block size.

Segwit makes the network a lot more efficient and opens doors for LN. There is simply not a single reason why we need bigger blocks at the moment. The only reason Segwit now will be activated is because the minepools want 'something in return' --> Bigger blocks.

Bigger blocks means a blow to all hobby miners, or semi-pro miners in countries that do have some hashpower, but don't have a lot of bandwidth available. Thus, more mining monopoly for the Bitmain etc.

The value of BTC comes from the fact that BTC will still be BTC in 10 years. If a widely accepted product can change in a few months, just because a 'few' people want it, it becomes completely valueless as I do not have the slightest clue what is going to happen with it in the near and far future.

[JohnMacaron]

You are plain stupid or act plain stupid, I'm sorry for being rude.

BTC was not made so people can make money, but to free people from Central Banks that control the value of (FIAT) money, and thus them control your wealth with a few buttons. BTC was made so we have total freedom and total ownership of our money, safe and secure. It is NOT made and never has been made for people to make money out of it. That does not mean that you CAN make money out of it (hodling / trading / whatsoever)

First of all: u're stupid. People are abandoning bitcoin because of stuffed-up mempool, which is too small to handle even small transactions. Instead of growing large Core decided to let small- and bigtime miners make money from fees, while time of confirmation may go up to several hours. This has driven many people away from Bitcoin, and Segwit won't do shit about it - it's a half-measure. Only high block size, like for example 8Mb (8 in chinese means wealth or fortune or smth like that) will bring peace and grow to Bitcoin.

If block size will not be increased, then there's no interest in holding Bitcoins, so all this point about free from government money is worth nothing

[CryptosapienZA]

BTC was not made so people can make money, but to free people from Central Banks that control the value of (FIAT) money, and thus them control your wealth with a few buttons.

^^^This is the reason why I don't see Bitcoin Cash taking over in the West. Unfortunately Bitcoin has been taken over by greedy individuals who dont even care about why Bitcoin was created. Most have not even read the white paper, and those that have dont even care. That for me is what makes me sad and terrified of the future of BTC. With that said, I do see greater adoption for Bitcoin Cash in the rest of the world.