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Author Topic: Bitcoin as a savings account  (Read 5650 times)
sigfawn
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May 17, 2013, 02:19:17 PM
 #61

Is it possible to setup a special needs trust where assets are placed in a trust possibly managed by you that can be used for specific medical reasons but won't be considered for Medicaid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_needs_trust

A printed wallet can work.  I personally wouldn't find it to be significantly more secure or reliable than a flash drive.  Personally if I was paranoid I would use both.

Bitcoins at this point is a risky investment and I wouldn't suggest buying more bitcoins than you can afford to loose.  I expect it will either be a very good savings method or go to zero with little in between.

great advice
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May 17, 2013, 02:24:21 PM
 #62

OP, you do what you feel is best.  Don't listen to those commie-wannabe bastards.

Hahaha. Commie bastard. Original. And the OP said he did not want the thread to become a sympathy card. Then he posts more about his situation (if true) for no other reason. I offered sympathy for his situation in every other post, yet I have an opinion of my own as well and at least I share mine with respect.

If we can't post without slinging insults like those found the last posts from both the OP and "mike christ", then this forum becomes just another troll box.  Roll Eyes
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May 17, 2013, 02:31:50 PM
 #63

...Original. And the OP said he did not want the thread to become a sympathy card. Then he posts more about his situation (if true) for no other reason. I offered sympathy for his situation in every other post, yet I have an opinion of my own as well and at least I share mine with respect.

If we can't post without slinging insults like those found the last posts from both the OP and "mike christ", then this forum becomes just another troll box.  Roll Eyes

See? If given the opportunity, most people do try to rise to a challenge! Still, nothing beats the fear of going to a caregiver "support" meeting and realizing that your situation is only going to get so much worse. Now that's real fear. Shame is laughable. Go for fear. I still have a few buttons there that work. (grin)

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May 17, 2013, 02:40:44 PM
 #64

Honestly your situation sounds bad man. You do however have someone special who is still in your life and thats more than a lot of people got. Always remember that there are people on this forum who have had their loved ones taken from them and lets just say I can relate to that so, yeah.
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May 17, 2013, 04:51:49 PM
 #65

Honestly your situation sounds bad man. You do however have someone special who is still in your life and thats more than a lot of people got. Always remember that there are people on this forum who have had their loved ones taken from them and lets just say I can relate to that so, yeah.

Pain is subjective. I'm sorry you can relate. That sucks.

So, all this subjective stuff aside, is it worth the effort to cold store a paper wallet vs. keeping BTC in an online exchange wallet, on a USB stick or Offline PC HD? Especially if liquidity is not the goal? Or is it overkill?

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Rampion
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May 17, 2013, 04:55:26 PM
 #66

My wife has dementia and I've had to quit work to take care of her full-time. We get by, just barely, on our fixed income. The most frustrating thing about our situation is the "requirement" that we NOT exceed the maximum allowed income for her to remain qualified for Medicaid. This would include any money in a savings account. Bitcoin seems to be an ideal way to build a savings account without the worry of saving cash in our house. Would a laminated paper wallet be the best way to secure it?

Bitcoins are not good for a "savings account". Especially if you cannot afford to lose that money.

This is experimental software. It can go south. It can be replaced by better software. Many things can go very bad with Bitcoin, you would just be gambling with very much needed savings.

Just don't do it.

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May 17, 2013, 05:14:33 PM
 #67

I don't see how this would work since BTC don't really gain interest since they fluctuate with the market unlike how physical money does

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May 17, 2013, 07:06:57 PM
 #68

I don't see how this would work since BTC don't really gain interest since they fluctuate with the market unlike how physical money does

The point of a savings account is not to earn interest, the point of the savings account is to store the money so you can have it later when you need it. In the OP's case, having savings outside the traditional banking system opens opportunities for aid which are not available to people with more than a pittance within the traditional banking system.

If you do want to gain interest there are a couple places to invest btc, like BTC-BOND on BTCT.co, (disclaimer: before investing do your own research).

I think you mean to say bitcoins fluctuate with the market just like how physical money does, for example gold.

Use CoinBR to trade bitcoin stocks: CoinBR.com

The best place for betting with bitcoin: BitBet.us
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May 17, 2013, 07:27:30 PM
 #69

I don't see how this would work since BTC don't really gain interest since they fluctuate with the market unlike how physical money does

The point of a savings account is not to earn interest, the point of the savings account is to store the money so you can have it later when you need it. In the OP's case, having savings outside the traditional banking system opens opportunities for aid which are not available to people with more than a pittance within the traditional banking system.

If you do want to gain interest there are a couple places to invest btc, like BTC-BOND on BTCT.co, (disclaimer: before investing do your own research).

I think you mean to say bitcoins fluctuate with the market just like how physical money does, for example gold.

Also our particular situation ends in 7 years when she can take her retirement. I'm willing to bet a few bitcoins now on the possibility that they'll be worth considerably more in 7 years.

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May 17, 2013, 07:42:02 PM
 #70

I'd diversify into multiple assets I could easily liquidate,  just in case. I'd prefer to select assets which don't depreciate and reasonably hedge against inflation. I would consider Bitcoins as one but also think about gold and silver make a nice portfolio option.
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May 17, 2013, 07:44:34 PM
 #71

All other things aside you will keep getting the same answers now. Most people suggest against it for good reason. Im going to gamble some money on longterm bitcoin too. But I don't call that money savings  Grin

You sound determined to do this and I guess I can't blame you so make a paper wallet with a nasty long password, laminate it, and never loose it. Don't use an online wallet (can get hacked) or put it on hardware (hardware crashes all the time).
extracrunchy
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May 17, 2013, 07:44:59 PM
 #72

wouldnt this be kinda illegal??

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May 17, 2013, 08:20:39 PM
 #73

wouldnt this be kinda illegal??

I don't think its illegal as long as I report it. I've definitely been persuaded that doing this without it being transparent would be a bad idea. But I'd hate for us to miss this opportunity if we don't have to. That should be an interesting conversation with her Case Manager. "What is Bitcoin? A paper wallet what?" (grin)

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May 24, 2013, 11:49:43 AM
 #74

Well people who abuse the system are wrong, and make me sick. I could be paying for your medicate and in that case, I be extremely upset that my money is helping you get bitcoins.

Let me ease your worried mind then. I don't get Medicaid. I don't have health insurance. When I get sick, I get to get over it. There. Feel better? Smiley

I hope the government finds out about this, and what you are trying to do, and puts you in jail for 5yrs and your wife in home. You deserve to see a cell. "Fraud" is serious and government "Fraud" is the worst in my opinion. You think your stealing from the government when in turn your stealing out of my pockets. Your a piece of scum.

I am not for hiding income or assets to avoid legitimate tax liability.

Ohhh your not?

I have no issue with hiding assets to get much needed assistance.  It sucks to have to bend the rules in order to survive.

They are viewed as the same crime. So yeah, another stupid person on the forums can you both leave, people like this make me so sick.

Gweedo; first let me say that I respect you immensely as a contributor to the discussion at Bitcointalk.org. Your insight has been very valuable to me.

Allow me to state, from experience mind you, that it is a luxury that few can afford; to have legal tax and asset shelters such as SEPs, HSAs, Roth's and the like. No one ever looks down in on a fellow that buries a handsome sum in his SEP to avoid taxation. It is admirable to max out a Health Savings Account in a tax deferred/free manner. Roth's are an awesome vehicle for retirement for those that are not self-employed. That emergency fund we are cautioned to keep in case of disaster makes us feel safe. All the while still having the means to pay a fellow several thousand dollars per year (100% deduction too) to see to it that the wealth that was so hard fought for remains with its rightful owner.

I certainly took this for granted. I wondered how less fortunate people could be so ignorant. Then some real shit happened at a very young age that shattered the foundation on which I had built my beliefs. Life changing events happened that I'd wish upon no one.

What happens when the real world has different plans for the nest egg, and all those things are cashed out to pay for necessities? Necessities like food, gas, premiums, medical bills, housing, electricity, and transportation. Now there is no money for life saving healthcare AND food, no funds for rent/mortgage AND the water/electricity bill that accompanies it, no more health insurance, no more annuity, no more nest egg.  In some cases, no more wife or family to lean on for support. What now?

I'll tell you what now.  What everTF is necessary to survive. If that means selling a car at a loss to a friend so there isn't one in paper; you do it. If it means you mustn't have over $500 in assets (when you only have enough to get thru 45 frugal days); you make it look like you have <$500. Otherwise you go without lifesaving medication and care.

Walk a mile in another man's moccasins before casting harsh judgment upon his actions my friend. I'm still fiscally conservative and think most of the programs the OP and myself desperately need should be eliminated. It would allow for those that have extra to lend a hand to those in need instead of being forced to help those that repeatedly refuse to help themselves. The current system just doesn't allow for it.

Would you rather a young man die in poverty and sickness, and a more mature gentleman go without basic needs in order to care for his wife?

Regardless your answer, I'd still choose you for escrow to sell my PS3 to help pay for the next round of oncologist visits while I wait on a response from Medicaid.

Buy my PS3 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=216554.msg2282760#msg2282760

Sign up with campbx:  https://campbx.com/main.php?r=3lo7dSqrLOu Yes it's an affiliate link, but you will not see me touting anything I do not both believe in and make extensive use of myself. Campbx is one of those things.
JimCGSavings
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May 24, 2013, 02:43:30 PM
 #75

...Regardless your answer, I'd still choose you for escrow to sell my PS3 to help pay for the next round of oncologist visits while I wait on a response from Medicaid.

pwi, I appreciate the backup and I'm sorry that this issue is still bothering you. The entire reason I raised the issue is because my wife and I are in a temporary catch 22 situation with our local government. If it hasn't become clear by now, we don't have the means financially, or permission under the guidelines of our particular situation, to save money in a bank account for essential expenditure situations that arise from time to time. This puts me in a situation where I have to save fiat currency in a portable fireproof safe to pay for these, or use our single credit card for such emergency purchases, pushing us further into debt. I did not mean for this to become an argument about the legality of these issues. I have no intention of offering proof one way or the other about our situation. It's not important to me one way or the other whether anyone here believes me or not. It won't change the temporary reality we live in. That will take another 7 years. I'm merely looking for a better way to save and spend on things we need than the equivalent of stuffing money in a mattress. The dispute DID remind me, as always, it's more important to me that we stay within the boundaries of our limitations than worrying about incurring debt that can't force us out of it. While I'm still waiting an answer as to the acceptability of Bitcoin as a savings and spending method, I now doubt that it will be allowed. I can probably spend fiat currency on purchasing Bitcoins, and posses them, as long as I don't exchange them back into fiat currency that has to be reported, especially if that earns us income. I am checking on that with the PTB, as there are members of our family that have been frustrated in their inability to help us financially due to those income limitations we are temporarily under. You may have noticed that I added and have left a BTC donation address to my messages. I'm not gonna remove it. No one has sent any there, but it's my little rebellion against the system I am trapped in, and it makes me feel better. If it becomes a problem, I can forget the address and never access it again. If anyone here feels the need to vent about that, feel free. I deal with stuff everyday that just makes a good online chewing out amusing and enlightening. (grin) I've enjoyed watching Bitcoin the same way I enjoyed watching the Internet go from being a weird hobby to changing the world as we know it. I think Bitcoin is doing the same thing. I'd like to participate, but it the PTB say no, Oh well. I'll still watch and it'll still be fun to do so. Life goes on.

I'll conclude by offering my sympathy and empathy for your own situation. Waiting on Medicaid with it's automatic rejections and required legal fight is one of the more ridiculous aspects of our system. Similar to the 24 month waiting period between qualifying for SSD and qualifying for Medicare. Why? "because that's the way the system works". If you've racked up medical debt at hospitals like we were forced to, check with their financial departments about Financial Assistant Programs. It's a lot of paperwork, but I managed to get the medical debt we incurred during those ever so fun 24 months down from $160k to $20k using them. Good luck!

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May 24, 2013, 02:56:47 PM
 #76

OP, you do what you feel is best.  Don't listen to those commie-wannabe bastards.
+1
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May 24, 2013, 05:41:44 PM
 #77

imo, you should save in gold.  ...

Assets are an issue for us at this time. We are allowed to have reasonable assets or debts, such as a single car paid off, a single mortgage(I'd say house, but the bank owns more of it than we do), reasonable home appliances, etc. We can have reasonable cash flows from our bank account, such as our monthly mortgage payment. We are expected to declare any new assets and/or changes in income and outflow of currency. Holding cash in our house is a grey area. As long as we spend it on necessities and not luxuries, I can justify it after the fact. I have the privilege of being "entitled" to print out copies of our bank statements, mortgage statements, credit card statements, and declare all assets again, at least twice a year to various interested parties. Any misstep in the process triggers automatic cutoffs and a fun round of appeals.
Fun factoid; when we were a lot younger and both worked full time, we cosigned a mortgage for the kids who had good jobs, but not the credit rating. We had to "force" their grandparents into taking that over just to get our names off the mortgage, and then wait the required period of time before my wife could qualify for these "entitlement" programs. Also, I'm required to apply for these same programs at least twice a year, or anytime one of these interested parties demands it, so I can send them a current denial letter for me. I'm so "entitled" I can hardly stand it! (grin)

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May 24, 2013, 06:18:31 PM
 #78

Gah! This thread makes me so angry. It's the same old story. Why the f* can't we get a social safety net to just work? It's the same old cycle, ridiculous burdensome bullshit that exploits taxpayers because we have to prevent the greedy rich antisocial bastards from exploiting the taxpayers. So much rage. So. Much.
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May 24, 2013, 07:24:00 PM
 #79

...Regardless your answer, I'd still choose you for escrow to sell my PS3 to help pay for the next round of oncologist visits while I wait on a response from Medicaid.

pwi, I appreciate the backup and I'm sorry that this issue is still bothering you. The entire reason I raised the issue is because my wife and I are in a temporary catch 22 situation with our local government. If it hasn't become clear by now, we don't have the means financially, or permission under the guidelines of our particular situation, to save money in a bank account for essential expenditure situations that arise from time to time. This puts me in a situation where I have to save fiat currency in a portable fireproof safe to pay for these, or use our single credit card for such emergency purchases, pushing us further into debt. I did not mean for this to become an argument about the legality of these issues. I have no intention of offering proof one way or the other about our situation. It's not important to me one way or the other whether anyone here believes me or not. It won't change the temporary reality we live in. That will take another 7 years. I'm merely looking for a better way to save and spend on things we need than the equivalent of stuffing money in a mattress. The dispute DID remind me, as always, it's more important to me that we stay within the boundaries of our limitations than worrying about incurring debt that can't force us out of it. While I'm still waiting an answer as to the acceptability of Bitcoin as a savings and spending method, I now doubt that it will be allowed. I can probably spend fiat currency on purchasing Bitcoins, and posses them, as long as I don't exchange them back into fiat currency that has to be reported, especially if that earns us income. I am checking on that with the PTB, as there are members of our family that have been frustrated in their inability to help us financially due to those income limitations we are temporarily under. You may have noticed that I added and have left a BTC donation address to my messages. I'm not gonna remove it. No one has sent any there, but it's my little rebellion against the system I am trapped in, and it makes me feel better. If it becomes a problem, I can forget the address and never access it again. If anyone here feels the need to vent about that, feel free. I deal with stuff everyday that just makes a good online chewing out amusing and enlightening. (grin) I've enjoyed watching Bitcoin the same way I enjoyed watching the Internet go from being a weird hobby to changing the world as we know it. I think Bitcoin is doing the same thing. I'd like to participate, but it the PTB say no, Oh well. I'll still watch and it'll still be fun to do so. Life goes on.

I'll conclude by offering my sympathy and empathy for your own situation. Waiting on Medicaid with it's automatic rejections and required legal fight is one of the more ridiculous aspects of our system. Similar to the 24 month waiting period between qualifying for SSD and qualifying for Medicare. Why? "because that's the way the system works". If you've racked up medical debt at hospitals like we were forced to, check with their financial departments about Financial Assistant Programs. It's a lot of paperwork, but I managed to get the medical debt we incurred during those ever so fun 24 months down from $160k to $20k using them. Good luck!

Thanks so much Jim. My support is trivial at best. The aggression displayed by some bothers me for whatever reason. This aggression will not stand. Man.

For the record:  Until my authorities dictate the nature of bitcoins as some intangible or tangible asset, I fail to see the need to report it. I will continue to report gains in and conversions to fiat as income/assets as required by said authorities.

I have a hard enough time explaining Bitcoin to MBA students and local merchants, let alone the kind lady at the desk or on the phone at the local government office. Until they understand and regulate it of their own volition; I fail to see the need to educate and inform them.

Keep fighting the good fight Jim. Those of us that care and understand will continue to do so. Those that do not will remain cold and hardened. All but gweedo; I can dismiss as trolling newbies. I'd expect 'hero' members to exercise virtuous silence if not offering words of support. It just makes for a better community environment. 

Buy my PS3 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=216554.msg2282760#msg2282760

Sign up with campbx:  https://campbx.com/main.php?r=3lo7dSqrLOu Yes it's an affiliate link, but you will not see me touting anything I do not both believe in and make extensive use of myself. Campbx is one of those things.
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May 24, 2013, 11:02:44 PM
 #80

Thanks so much Jim. My support is trivial at best. The aggression displayed by some bothers me for whatever reason. This aggression will not stand. Man.
As I think I mentioned before, I've been participating online since the BBS/Fidonet days. I even had the "fun" of moderating a very volatile "echo". One person's aggression or button is another's sincerely held belief, or casual statement meant without true malice, or mistaken assumption. I take it all as a learning curve. I learn something new about Bitcoin every day here, so it's worth it. Now all I have to do is shoot the guys who came up with...uh I mean, try to figure out what Ripple is and that will be cool. In my day, it was just a really bad, really cheap "wine". (grin)

Quote
For the record:  Until my authorities dictate the nature of bitcoins as some intangible or tangible asset, I fail to see the need to report it. I will continue to report gains in and conversions to fiat as income/assets as required by said authorities.
I don't have any yet, so not a problem. If I do get some, I'll put em in a paper wallet after I create a linux partition on the old XP box my wife uses to play solitaire on again. That's always fun, but I haven't had a reason to play with linux for awhile. Other than the USB stick I boot into to update and run command line utility scans on the connected systems. I'd rather dual boot though for anything more than that. Linux on USB2 just runs too slow for anything other than letting scans run, in my experience. I won't exchange any for fiat currency until we are out of the temporary situation we are in now. If a reporting requirement happens, I don't think even reporting that I "own" something virtual with no actual value until it's exchanged for fiat currency, goods or services will cause a problem for us.

Quote
I have a hard enough time explaining Bitcoin to MBA students and local merchants, let alone the kind lady at the desk or on the phone at the local government office. Until they understand and regulate it of their own volition; I fail to see the need to educate and inform them.
I'm trying to learn enough to explain it to my father the retired CPA. He just looks at me and asks the same question over and over again; "so, that bitcoinATM thingy, what bank supplies the money for that?" (grin)

Quote
Keep fighting the good fight Jim. Those of us that care and understand will continue to do so. Those that do not will remain cold and hardened. All but gweedo; I can dismiss as trolling newbies. I'd expect 'hero' members to exercise virtuous silence if not offering words of support. It just makes for a better community environment. 
Aww, don't stop the newbies from trolling. It's hurts their feelings. "Encourage" them to participate "correctly". Oldbies don't troll. They fight the good fight. Smiley

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