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Author Topic: If the US gov wanted to stop funds going into gox...  (Read 2494 times)
notig
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May 15, 2013, 01:20:33 AM
 #1

There is a "sister" bank that actually holds the funds of gox in New york even though gox is based in Japan. It seems to me that if what they were doing here was simply attacking bitcoin then they would seize this banks funds but they haven't.

This leads me to think that they are just trying to control the ways you put funds into and out of gox.
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May 15, 2013, 01:33:47 AM
 #2

This leads me to think that they are just trying to control the ways you put funds into and out of gox.

My guess, assuming seizure remains limited to that one Dwolla account, is that there is some specific transaction that flowed through Dwolla to Gox that they have an interest in which likely was sourced from "illicit" funds.

If Bitcoin itself was the target, then there would have been a coordinated effort to shut down all entry points, as has been the case in the past with, for instance, coordinated MPAA DNS takedowns.

Look at it from the perspective of someone planning an operation.  You would not give advance notice by executing it piecemeal.  You would liquidate all targets at once.  So I think this is a one-off and possibly a buying opportunity as people overreact to the uncertainty.

Nevertheless, it also should be taken seriously as a dry run because, if someday a coordinated attack on Bitcoin does come, it will likely have similar characteristics, except executed simultaneously at all key chokepoints worldwide including, guaranteed, a joint operation with Japanese authorities in Tokyo to shut down Gox itself.
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May 15, 2013, 01:36:00 AM
 #3

If folks think it's going to stop here; it's not. TPTB do NOT want bitcoin to undermine their fiat powers.

If you think that demand for bitcoin will go DOWN because of regulation and government fighting back, now is the time to sell all of your coins and leave. [sarc]You know, just like demand for P2P torrents went DOWN after government stepped in... just like demand for drugs went DOWN after government stepped in... [/sarc] Big, resounding LOL.

Seriously, WTF did you think would happen? Bitcoin and governments would merrily coexist? For people who think regulation and government opposition would lower demand, why did you buy Bitcoins in the first place? It seems pretty stupid to buy into something that's GUARANTEED by its very nature to be hated by EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT AND LARGE CORPORATION, while holding the opinion that this very hate will cause it to lose value.
So if [you] are one of these folks, please examine your cognitive dissonance. I'm not necessarily trying to make an argument that you are wrong, I'm arguing that if you do hold that opinion, buying bitcoins in the first place was not congruent with the opinion that regulation/opposition will lower demand and thus price. You are buying an asset guaranteed to be opposed/regulated with the opinion that this opposition/regulation will drive price down.
There are a LOT of people who panic sell at the hint of government regulation-related news, and these people just don't understand the epic contradiction they have embodied. Either fix the error or sell your coins. Get it? Got it? Good.
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May 15, 2013, 01:38:09 AM
 #4

If folks think it's going to stop here; it's not. TPTB do NOT want bitcoin to undermine their fiat powers.

If you think that demand for bitcoin will go DOWN because of regulation and government fighting back, now is the time to sell all of your coins and leave. [sarc]You know, just like demand for P2P torrents went DOWN after government stepped in... just like demand for drugs went DOWN after government stepped in... [/sarc] Big, resounding LOL.

Seriously, WTF did you think would happen? Bitcoin and governments would merrily coexist? For people who think regulation and government opposition would lower demand, why did you buy Bitcoins in the first place? It seems pretty stupid to buy into something that's GUARANTEED by its very nature to be hated by EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT AND LARGE CORPORATION, while holding the opinion that this very hate will cause it to lose value.
So if [you] are one of these folks, please examine your cognitive dissonance. I'm not necessarily trying to make an argument that you are wrong, I'm arguing that if you do hold that opinion, buying bitcoins in the first place was not congruent with the opinion that regulation/opposition will lower demand and thus price. You are buying an asset guaranteed to be opposed/regulated with the opinion that this opposition/regulation will drive price down.
There are a LOT of people who panic sell at the hint of government regulation-related news, and these people just don't understand the epic contradiction they have embodied. Either fix the error or sell your coins. Get it? Got it? Good.

I've got the weirdest boner right now.

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BTC Books
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May 15, 2013, 01:46:13 AM
 #5

If folks think it's going to stop here; it's not. TPTB do NOT want bitcoin to undermine their fiat powers.

If you think that demand for bitcoin will go DOWN because of regulation and government fighting back, now is the time to sell all of your coins and leave. [sarc]You know, just like demand for P2P torrents went DOWN after government stepped in... just like demand for drugs went DOWN after government stepped in... [/sarc] Big, resounding LOL.

Seriously, WTF did you think would happen? Bitcoin and governments would merrily coexist? For people who think regulation and government opposition would lower demand, why did you buy Bitcoins in the first place? It seems pretty stupid to buy into something that's GUARANTEED by its very nature to be hated by EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT AND LARGE CORPORATION, while holding the opinion that this very hate will cause it to lose value.
So if [you] are one of these folks, please examine your cognitive dissonance. I'm not necessarily trying to make an argument that you are wrong, I'm arguing that if you do hold that opinion, buying bitcoins in the first place was not congruent with the opinion that regulation/opposition will lower demand and thus price. You are buying an asset guaranteed to be opposed/regulated with the opinion that this opposition/regulation will drive price down.
There are a LOT of people who panic sell at the hint of government regulation-related news, and these people just don't understand the epic contradiction they have embodied. Either fix the error or sell your coins. Get it? Got it? Good.

I've got the weirdest boner right now.

Weird?  Yes.

That's probably because BitcoinAshley is by no stretch of the imagination a 22 year old female.  Probably a 40ish, male, professional trader who understands that in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

Or, put another way; in an overwhelmingly male, totally geek community - dominated by nothing but inexperienced greed and fueled by Jolt Cola and Modafinil - a female of desirable age will be listened to.

Dankedan: price seems low, time to sell I think...
fitty
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May 15, 2013, 02:00:24 AM
 #6

If folks think it's going to stop here; it's not. TPTB do NOT want bitcoin to undermine their fiat powers.

If you think that demand for bitcoin will go DOWN because of regulation and government fighting back, now is the time to sell all of your coins and leave. [sarc]You know, just like demand for P2P torrents went DOWN after government stepped in... just like demand for drugs went DOWN after government stepped in... [/sarc] Big, resounding LOL.

Seriously, WTF did you think would happen? Bitcoin and governments would merrily coexist? For people who think regulation and government opposition would lower demand, why did you buy Bitcoins in the first place? It seems pretty stupid to buy into something that's GUARANTEED by its very nature to be hated by EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT AND LARGE CORPORATION, while holding the opinion that this very hate will cause it to lose value.
So if [you] are one of these folks, please examine your cognitive dissonance. I'm not necessarily trying to make an argument that you are wrong, I'm arguing that if you do hold that opinion, buying bitcoins in the first place was not congruent with the opinion that regulation/opposition will lower demand and thus price. You are buying an asset guaranteed to be opposed/regulated with the opinion that this opposition/regulation will drive price down.
There are a LOT of people who panic sell at the hint of government regulation-related news, and these people just don't understand the epic contradiction they have embodied. Either fix the error or sell your coins. Get it? Got it? Good.

I've got the weirdest boner right now.

Weird?  Yes.

That's probably because BitcoinAshley is by no stretch of the imagination a 22 year old female.  Probably a 40ish, male, professional trader who understands that in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

Or, put another way; in an overwhelmingly male, totally geek community - dominated by nothing but inexperienced greed and fueled by Jolt Cola and Modafinil - a female of desirable age will be listened to.

Oh I didn't listen to a word she said. I was too busy thinking about having a GF who would be into a roleplay where I was the dirty fiat banker and she was the angst driven teen, runaway from home, living off Bitcoin. Eventually she can't resist the dirty fiat banker, she must submit. Her body betrays her...she likes it. Fast forward 3 months she has 5k in credit card debit and the sex just isn't the same. Wait what?

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QuantPlus
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May 15, 2013, 02:05:48 AM
 #7

This leads me to think that they are just trying to control the ways you put funds into and out of gox.

Nevertheless, it also should be taken seriously as a dry run because, if someday a coordinated attack on Bitcoin does come, it will likely have similar characteristics, except executed simultaneously at all key chokepoints worldwide including, guaranteed, a joint operation with Japanese authorities in Tokyo to shut down Gox itself.


The US DOJ would simply file criminal charges...
Against the CEO and principals of MtGox...
Exactly the way it was done against Full Tilt Poker in 2011.

MtGox would be shut down in 5 minutes...
And it would take years to sort it out.

The DOJ spent 3 years investigating FTP...
And have probably been investigating MtGox for a while...
Whether the charges would hold up in court is unimportant...
But they would center on the 1000s of US Customers.

That's why it's important to have small exchanges distributed globally.
BTC Books
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May 15, 2013, 02:07:54 AM
 #8

If folks think it's going to stop here; it's not. TPTB do NOT want bitcoin to undermine their fiat powers.

If you think that demand for bitcoin will go DOWN because of regulation and government fighting back, now is the time to sell all of your coins and leave. [sarc]You know, just like demand for P2P torrents went DOWN after government stepped in... just like demand for drugs went DOWN after government stepped in... [/sarc] Big, resounding LOL.

Seriously, WTF did you think would happen? Bitcoin and governments would merrily coexist? For people who think regulation and government opposition would lower demand, why did you buy Bitcoins in the first place? It seems pretty stupid to buy into something that's GUARANTEED by its very nature to be hated by EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT AND LARGE CORPORATION, while holding the opinion that this very hate will cause it to lose value.
So if [you] are one of these folks, please examine your cognitive dissonance. I'm not necessarily trying to make an argument that you are wrong, I'm arguing that if you do hold that opinion, buying bitcoins in the first place was not congruent with the opinion that regulation/opposition will lower demand and thus price. You are buying an asset guaranteed to be opposed/regulated with the opinion that this opposition/regulation will drive price down.
There are a LOT of people who panic sell at the hint of government regulation-related news, and these people just don't understand the epic contradiction they have embodied. Either fix the error or sell your coins. Get it? Got it? Good.

I've got the weirdest boner right now.

Weird?  Yes.

That's probably because BitcoinAshley is by no stretch of the imagination a 22 year old female.  Probably a 40ish, male, professional trader who understands that in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

Or, put another way; in an overwhelmingly male, totally geek community - dominated by nothing but inexperienced greed and fueled by Jolt Cola and Modafinil - a female of desirable age will be listened to.

Oh I didn't listen to a word she said. I was too busy thinking about having a GF who would be into a roleplay where I was the dirty fiat banker and she was the angst driven teen, runaway from home, living off Bitcoin. Eventually she can't resist the dirty fiat banker, she must submit. Her body betrays her...she likes it. Fast forward 3 months she has 5k in credit card debit and the sex just isn't the same. Wait what?

Mmmph.  Didn't you forget her destitute aunt, about to be evicted?  [ / curls mustache... ]

Dankedan: price seems low, time to sell I think...
pwi
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May 15, 2013, 02:10:35 AM
 #9

If folks think it's going to stop here; it's not. TPTB do NOT want bitcoin to undermine their fiat powers.

If you think that demand for bitcoin will go DOWN because of regulation and government fighting back, now is the time to sell all of your coins and leave. [sarc]You know, just like demand for P2P torrents went DOWN after government stepped in... just like demand for drugs went DOWN after government stepped in... [/sarc] Big, resounding LOL.

Seriously, WTF did you think would happen? Bitcoin and governments would merrily coexist? For people who think regulation and government opposition would lower demand, why did you buy Bitcoins in the first place? It seems pretty stupid to buy into something that's GUARANTEED by its very nature to be hated by EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT AND LARGE CORPORATION, while holding the opinion that this very hate will cause it to lose value.
So if [you] are one of these folks, please examine your cognitive dissonance. I'm not necessarily trying to make an argument that you are wrong, I'm arguing that if you do hold that opinion, buying bitcoins in the first place was not congruent with the opinion that regulation/opposition will lower demand and thus price. You are buying an asset guaranteed to be opposed/regulated with the opinion that this opposition/regulation will drive price down.
There are a LOT of people who panic sell at the hint of government regulation-related news, and these people just don't understand the epic contradiction they have embodied. Either fix the error or sell your coins. Get it? Got it? Good.

I've got the weirdest boner right now.

Weird?  Yes.

That's probably because BitcoinAshley is by no stretch of the imagination a 22 year old female.  Probably a 40ish, male, professional trader who understands that in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

Or, put another way; in an overwhelmingly male, totally geek community - dominated by nothing but inexperienced greed and fueled by Jolt Cola and Modafinil - a female of desirable age will be listened to.

I just spit my Starbucks into my Adderall bottle while reading this.

Buy my PS3 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=216554.msg2282760#msg2282760

Sign up with campbx:  https://campbx.com/main.php?r=3lo7dSqrLOu Yes it's an affiliate link, but you will not see me touting anything I do not both believe in and make extensive use of myself. Campbx is one of those things.
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May 15, 2013, 02:16:42 AM
 #10

The government might actually be giving people a little warning trying to deflate everything before they go in for the kill.  I mean, if your just interested in a single transaction flowing to GOX, then why shut the entire thing down?  Why not work with gox to go after the specific transaction they are after.  This was definitely target at GOX.  Some sort of lashing for the coinbase deal going bad?  Some big time investor calls in a favor at the DOJ?  Let the conspiracy theories flow. 

Hi forum: 1DDpiEt36VTJsiJunyBc3XtG6CcSAnsQ4p
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May 15, 2013, 02:19:20 AM
 #11

Mmmph.  Didn't you forget her destitute aunt, about to be evicted?  [ / curls mustache... ]

And the boner is gone. However, I like how you think.  Grin


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May 15, 2013, 02:19:53 AM
 #12

The government might actually be giving people a little warning trying to deflate everything before they go in for the kill.  I mean, if your just interested in a single transaction flowing to GOX, then why shut the entire thing down?  Why not work with gox to go after the specific transaction they are after.  This was definitely target at GOX.  Some sort of lashing for the coinbase deal going bad?  Some big time investor calls in a favor at the DOJ?  Let the conspiracy theories flow. 

Aren't the Winklevii talking about backing a new exchange?

Dankedan: price seems low, time to sell I think...
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May 15, 2013, 03:48:03 AM
 #13

[sarc]You know, just like demand for P2P torrents went DOWN after government stepped in... just like demand for drugs went DOWN after government stepped in... [/sarc] Big, resounding LOL.


I dont think bitcoin is in the same category as either of these. P2P torrents did not go down after governments stepped in, because they cannot be blocked easily by government . Drugs also are very addictive and cannot be easily blocked, however they would be used alot more if it wasn't for government regulation. Bitcoin however can be easily blocked by government, by blocking bank transfers to exchanges. Any illegalization would also prevent any legitimate business from transacting in Bitcoin, resulting in no 'mass adoption'.

It's a nice comparison you're making in theory, but in practice it doesn't work.
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May 15, 2013, 03:57:28 AM
 #14

You would liquidate all targets at once.  

The only problem with your theory is that probably all of bitcoin-related things revolve around MtGox. There are no other "real targets".

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May 15, 2013, 04:26:04 AM
 #15

I'm suprised they would go after gox though. Gox has very stringent verification processes and such. You would think the DHS would prefer to have 90% of the transactions accounted for properly. Now where is everybody going to trade?!

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May 15, 2013, 05:24:06 AM
 #16

[sarc]You know, just like demand for P2P torrents went DOWN after government stepped in... just like demand for drugs went DOWN after government stepped in... [/sarc] Big, resounding LOL.


I dont think bitcoin is in the same category as either of these. P2P torrents did not go down after governments stepped in, because they cannot be blocked easily by government . Drugs also are very addictive and cannot be easily blocked, however they would be used alot more if it wasn't for government regulation. Bitcoin however can be easily blocked by government, by blocking bank transfers to exchanges. Any illegalization would also prevent any legitimate business from transacting in Bitcoin, resulting in no 'mass adoption'.

It's a nice comparison you're making in theory, but in practice it doesn't work.

tax minimization is more compelling that drugs or gambling

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May 15, 2013, 05:40:05 AM
 #17

A government wishes to control its own government-issued currency.  This should not surprise anyone.

Jeff Garzik, Bloq CEO, former bitcoin core dev team; opinions are my own.
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joesmoe2012
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May 15, 2013, 05:40:55 AM
 #18

A government wishes to control its own government-issued currency.  This should not surprise anyone.


Not only control, but monitor the movement of.

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May 15, 2013, 05:59:24 AM
 #19

You guys don't really understand the world. Let me spell it out for you. The US has complete and utter control of the world financial system. It doesn't matter if you are in Japan, Iran,Switzerland or any other country the US can make you grovel.

I suggest you guys read about the oldest bank in Switzerland and how it got taken to court by the US even though it had no US operations.

Or read about how the US pressured Belgium based SWIFT to cut off Iranian banks from the world financial system. Iran has to go to extreme lengths to repatriate its export earnings. For instance Iran now has to convert earnings from natural gas exports to Turkey into physical gold and courier it across the border. In other countries it has to do barter!

So the point is that if the US wants to take down Gox it doesn't need Gox to have any US operations. Japan is America's bitch and it will gladly raid Gox's offices for it.

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May 15, 2013, 07:26:00 AM
 #20

The basic problem which the BTC community needs to resolve is how to set up a clean, legal, trustworthy system of moving fiat into and out of BTC quickly and easily.

Such a system, if existing, would enable the price of BTC against fiat to be truly responsive to the closest we can get to a frictionless free market.

Certainly, the US is a big player and needs to be taken into account, but its powers are not unlimited and as with all bureaucracies - there are huge inefficiencies and delays in governments attempting to exercise power - particularly in any morally suspect manner.

Ideally a number of distributed p2p exchanges would be the best solution - but we are still quite far from seeing that - as the interface between fiat and BTC always needs access to the worlds banking systems.

Perhaps the only option at present is to place one's trust in the only country which can and does stand up to the US - Russia - welcome  BTC-E!

I have no problem with governments and prefer a world with them rather than without - its just that there needs to be a balance of powers to limit the excesses and abuse of powers which governments in history have been prone to.

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