The death of Mt Gox will End Bitcoin

[Viceroy]

It's sometimes hard to find the best forum for discussions around here.  If you can contribute meaningfully to the creation of a 'Mt Gox Two Point Oh', please do so here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179147.0

If you'd like to philosophize about things, on the other hand, please post in this thread...  

In case you were not aware the American Government has decided to seize assets of Mt Gox.  
Here's the press:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155933-homeland-security-seizes-account-of-largest-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox
http://www.zdnet.com/us-department-of-homeland-security-issues-court-order-against-mt-gox-7000015389/

I speculate, per this thread category, that shutting down Mt Gox would be meaningless in the long run adoption of bitcoin by the common man.  Like a drug cartel leaders' death, killing gox would only lead to the strengthening of ten smaller exchanges.  Like the world wide drug war against marijuana, going after Mt Gox will NEVER destroy the "coin".


Discuss....

[smoothie]

MTGOX =/= Bitcoin simple as that. Price may be affected, but bitcoin is more than just a price.

[Ares]

I think the death of Mt Gox will usher in a new era of bitcoin success

[BitPirate]

When they shut down Napster and Kazaa, did it end filesharing?

Anyway, the analogy is irrelevant, as nothing has actually been shut down yet, and there is no evidence to suggest it will be.

[Viceroy]

Evidence is strong that the Department of Homeland Security SEIZED ASSETS through Dwolla.  I TOTALLY disagree with your assessment.  My initial assessment is that the founder of Mt Gox goes to jail for about a decade.  Didn't the Napster guy go to jail for a while?  I forget that was like twenty years ago.  These kids don't even know what Napster is Grandpa  


Edit: my later assessment is that the owner(s) of Mt Gox appear to have tried to be compliant so it is possible this will result in no charges.

[BitPirate]

Evidence is strong that the Department of Homeland Security SEIZED ASSETS through Dwolla.  I TOTALLY disagree with your assessment.  My initial assessment is that the founder of Mt Gox goes to jail for about a decade.  Didn't the Napster guy go to jail for a while?  I forget that was like twenty years ago.  These kids don't even know what Napster is Grandpa 

Goes to jail for an oversight on a subsidiary's bank account regarding regulations that are a month old?

Get a grip man.

[evilscoop]

can i get another option on the list....
bitstamp becomes new top exchange :p

[Viceroy]

Goes to jail for an oversight on a subsidiary's bank account regarding regulations that are a month old?

Get a grip man.

Dude, you don't get the significance of this AT ALL.  This is NOT a meaningless situation regarding FINCEN's statement.  This is a criminal investigation involving, as the article puts it:  "Karpeles, in other words, is in violation of some fairly serious banking laws."

What Mt Gox has done is blatantly illegal and violates American laws back to the 1930's 1960's.

[evilscoop]

viceroy, was it not mtgox's middle man (Mutum Sigillum), and not mtgox themselves at fault....
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206308.0;topicseen

thus mtgox are actually the innocent party here, stupid...but innocent

[Viceroy]

not clear to me who the actors are at this time.  I was a little confused too as I always thought Mt Gox to be Japanese and this [] is clearly (certainly appears to be) from Delaware.  If he is their "banker", they are all on the line.  The dude straight lied on the form:

"The warrant that DHS used to seize the funds in Mt. Gox’s Dwolla account has just been published, and it points to a significant problem with the service. As Ars Technica details, when Mt. Gox owner Mark Karpeles opened the Mutum Sigilum account with Wells Fargo, he was asked if Mutum Sigilum LLC was a business engaged in monetary services. From the warrant:

The application asks several questions; to include, “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?” Karpeles answered these questions “no,” indicating that Mutum Sigilum LLC does not deal in or exchange money, and that it does not send funds based on customer instructions. Money transmitting businesses are required by 31 USC section 5330 to register as such with FinCEN. According to FinCEN records on May 6, 2013, neither Mt. Gox nor the subsidiary, Mutum Sigilum LLC, is registered as a Money Service Business.

Whoops."

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155933-homeland-security-seizes-account-of-largest-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox


Great link there, Evil, thanks!

Edit: I had to stop reading here because I am NOT a conspiracy theorist.  the link reads: "I do believe that the US Government [] is frightened of bitcoin"

[evilscoop]

the question is, is this Mutum Sigillum employed by mtgox to act as us rep and to allow trade in the us....
or is Mutum Sigillum an independent sub contractor that failed to meet us banking laws....

If hes a sub contractor....his business is finished....
If hes employed by mtgox they could be in for trouble....but since their not a us company, there aint a lot us can do...

I hate the us thinking they can enforce their laws on everyone....other places work v. differently...youd think ppl would learn after all the pirate bay crap

anyway...i doubt mtgox are stressing it, they will just get another middle man

[notme]

the question is, is this Mutum Sigillum employed by mtgox to act as us rep and to allow trade in the us....
or is Mutum Sigillum an independent sub contractor that failed to meet us banking laws....

If hes a sub contractor....his business is finished....
If hes employed by mtgox they could be in for trouble....but since their not a us company, there aint a lot us can do...

I hate the us thinking they can enforce their laws on everyone....other places work v. differently...youd think ppl would learn after all the pirate bay crap

anyway...i doubt mtgox are stressing it, they will just get another middle man

The same man owns both Mutum Sigillum and the Japanese company that operates MtGox.

[evilscoop]

ahh well then, guess its time for him to make a new llc in us and get banking stuff sorted this time....
still no biggy...

[Viceroy]

I hate the us thinking they can enforce their laws on everyone...

It's not that, it is a step to Protect Americans.  All the banking laws of the USA are designed to protect the citizens.  Mt Gox is violating our law by acting as an exchange/money transmitter without a license.   I bet they probably need a license in Japan and Europe too.  

If they don't want the license, that's fine, but then they cannot take American's money... else this.  FWIW I think he is facing serious jail time.  He appears to be an American based on a Delaware address.  Combine this with the $75 million lawsuit from coinlab Mt Gox is in deep trouble.  

[myrkul]

It's not that, it is a step to Protect Americans.  All the banking laws of the USA are designed to protect the citizens.

*government

[frozen]

What Mt Gox has done is blatantly illegal and violates American laws back to the 1930's.

Exactly which American laws has Mt Gox violated, and how?

[Viceroy]

We have yet to see, all we have at this time is an accusation and a seizure.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206749.msg2164340#msg2164340

[smoothie]

Evidence is strong that the Department of Homeland Security SEIZED ASSETS through Dwolla.  I TOTALLY disagree with your assessment.  My initial assessment is that the founder of Mt Gox goes to jail for about a decade.  Didn't the Napster guy go to jail for a while?  I forget that was like twenty years ago.  These kids don't even know what Napster is Grandpa 

I am curious what LAW did Mark break?

Link? Site? Cite?

[myrkul]

What Mt Gox has done is blatantly illegal and violates American laws back to the 1930's.

Exactly which American laws has Mt Gox violated, and how?

MtGox has violated none. Mutum Sigillum, LLC, in the person of one Mark Karpeles, has violated 18 USC Section 1960.

http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mt-Gox-Dwolla-Warrant-5-14-13.pdf

[Viceroy]

MtGox has violated none.

We do not know that.  And it would appear that Mark IS Mt Gox, so it's kindof all the same thing, no?