Monkeys trading rocks

[BitWhale]

What gives something value...? Some things are easy.

Land: we all need a place to live
Water: we need it to survive
Food: also needed to survive
Oil: we need it to run our rolling monkey-mobiles so we can get to the stores to buy the other things on the list above

But some things aren't as clear cut...

Gold: Sure we can argue it's used in technology, but it was valuable for 1000's of years. Why? It's rare, yes, but what are u going to do with it??? lol
Currency: It's a piece of paper with a stamp on it that says "hey, trust us, this is legal tender now and is now magically worth something because we say so"

Sure, we can't really go back to the barter system, currency makes trade much easier. Before, if you grew corn but the guy selling beans didn't need corn, you would have to trade for something else the guy with beans wanted. Currency helps streamline this transaction, it is a necessary evil, but why is it that us humans are so quick to assume something has value even when it clearly has no value? (other than to maybe warm your family Pablo Escobar style)

The top 1% supposedly owns 80% of the world's currency supply, in a currency that perpetually moves down in value.

Can we really replace it with a new "peoples currency" where the top 1% owns 69% of the world's currency supply, in a currency that perpetually rises in value? Aren't we, in a round about way, solving zero issues by creating the same problems we intended to fix in the first place?

What gives something the perception of value, and why should I trust that tomorrow it will still be perceived as valuable? It's all subjective, "the flavor of the week" if you will.

At the end of the day, I'm starting to feel like we are all just monkeys arbitrarily trading rocks with eachother.

(ancient stone currency)

(monkeys trading rocks)

[1713581590]

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[1713581590]

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[1713581590]

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[west man4]

So this is how you are seeing the crypto world with those on the exchanges trading their rocks ? aka. alt coins.

Very intriguing way to look at it really.

[GreenBits]

What gives something value...? Some things are easy.

Land: we all need a place to live
Water: we need it to survive
Food: also needed to survive
Oil: we need it to run our rolling monkey-mobiles so we can get to the stores to buy the other things on the list above

But somethings aren't as clear cut...

Gold: Sure we can argue it's used in technology, but it was valuable for 1000's of years. Why? It's rare, yes, but what are u going to do with it??? lol
Currency: It's a piece of paper with a stamp on it that says "hey, trust us, this is legal tender now and is now magically worth something because we say so"

Sure, we can't really go back to the barter system, currency makes trade much easier. Before, if you grew corn but the guy selling beans didn't need corn, you would have to trade for something else the guy with beans wanted. Currency helps streamline this transaction, it is a necessary evil, but why is it that us humans are so quick to assume something has value even when it clearly has no value? (other than to maybe warm your family Pablo Escobar style)

The top 1% supposedly owns 80% of the world's currency supply, in a currency that perpetually moves down in value.

Can we really replace it with a new "peoples currency" where the top 1% owns 69% of the world's currency supply, in a currency that perpetually rises in value? Aren't we, in a round about way, solving zero issues by creating the same problems we intended to fix in the first place?

What gives something the perception of value, and why should I trust that tomorrow it will still be perceived as valuable? It's all subjective, "the flavor of the week" if you will.

At the end of the day, I'm starting to feel like we are all just monkeys arbitrarily trading rocks with eachother.

(ancient stone currency)

(monkeys trading rocks)

This is the majority of whats fucked about financial policy right now, to a tee. Bravo good sir. you have hit the nail squarely on its head, so to speak.

specifically associating this with bitcoin, yes, there is absolutely no basis of what provides bitcoin value. I just railed about this in another thread (im on fire today) but the issue still stands. This shit is so much light and sparkles. The price of bitcoin is what the majority of 15-21 year old traders want it to be, we are reaching a price consensus in a market with a majority of inexperienced traders. it shows. show me a real world asset like BCC, for example. 10 bil popped into being overnight, persisted for about 48 hours, and crumbled to dust. thing are ephemeral in this sphere, it is truly 'here today, gone tomorrow".

You get a cookie. Two cookies, what the hell, its the weekend. Gotta let my hair down.

[BitWhale]

Thank you gentlemen for the kind words, I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees things this way. This is something that I've thought about for a long time.

There are alot of things that make zero sense about the current financial state of our world, yet as they say "markets can stay irrational for longer than you can remain solvent".

We'd literally need to overhaul from the ground up, but since I am monkey after all, I honestly can't treally think of a better solution to solve these problems. At the end of the day, it will never make sense to create value out of nothing, or to create a "placeholder" for value that is used for trade.

I often wonder where people think the value to bitcoin comes from, the best answer I can come up with is "2 people decided on a price, other's accepted that as a real trade and made their own trades accordingly, and we keep playing off eachother from there" haha.

A decent idea for a fiat replacement is to have a currency that represents the current top 12 most traded commodities on the market. If one commodity on the list has less volume for a certain amount of time than another commodity, it will be removed from the list and replaced with another commodity in the top 12 volume list. This would make it so each piece of paper you own actually represents something of ACTUAL value to society, which can be traded in at any point for it's portion of the top 12 traded commodities.  Of course, this has it's own issues, mainly that it will cause artificial supply & demand because people will do arbitrage.

This could in theory create a stable currency, because traders will constantly exploit arbitrage opportunities so the currency represents the current market value of the list of commodities... It's also much harder to manipulate 12 things instead of just one (gold, bitcoin, etc). On the flip side, (same argument is being made about ETFs on the stock exchanges), it could cause higher volatility and large flash crashes because if one commodity drops, it's in the currency holders best interest to buy the 12 commodities and trade it into 1 piece of currency and sell it for market price until the currency's price reflects the true market value of it's commodity counterparts.

There is no easy answer basically, everything can be rigged some how lol. I'm surprised the founding fathers figured out half the shit they did +100 years ago, that's a feat i tell you what, especially since the vast majority still is very relevant to today's world.

You get a cookie. Two cookies, what the hell, its the weekend. Gotta let my hair down.

Cookies would make a good currency, they'd definitely be more in demand than supply eh haha.

[illyiller]

At the end of the day, I'm starting to feel like we are all just monkeys arbitrarily trading rocks with eachother.

Very true. But the more important question is, why this rock, rather than that rock? Gold may be limited, but no one knows just how limited. And its general use by populations for store of value and jewelry far surpasses the industrial needs for it.

People are definitely realizing, collectively, that fiat currencies are threatening their future wealth and retirement funds. The next question, then, is which "rock" is next? Will things like gold and oil continue to rule the world, or is Bitcoin going to become a new contender? Or perhaps some other cryptocurrency? I do sometimes wonder what some of the brilliant Core devs might do if they moved on from Bitcoin...

[hatshepsut93]

Can we really replace it with a new "peoples currency" where the top 1% owns 69% of the world's currency supply, in a currency that perpetually rises in value? Aren't we, in a round about way, solving zero issues by creating the same problems we intended to fix in the first place?

If you don't like it, feel free to create your own commie-coin and airdrop it to all people equally and see how it goes. Or create some UBI coin that will be stealing coins from top addresses and paying them to every wallet in the network. Feel free to experiment, comrade.

What gives something the perception of value, and why should I trust that tomorrow it will still be perceived as valuable? It's all subjective, "the flavor of the week" if you will.

At the end of the day, I'm starting to feel like we are all just monkeys arbitrarily trading rocks with eachother.

Congratulations, you have just invented the suvjected theory of value.

[Labay]

So this is how you are seeing the crypto world with those on the exchanges trading their rocks ? aka. alt coins.

Very intriguing way to look at it really.

this show what are the main importance in this job on how we did to know about the importance of our doing.

[BitWhale]

Very true. But the more important question is, why this rock, rather than that rock? Gold may be limited, but no one knows just how limited. And its general use by populations for store of value and jewelry far surpasses the industrial needs for it.

People are definitely realizing, collectively, that fiat currencies are threatening their future wealth and retirement funds. The next question, then, is which "rock" is next? Will things like gold and oil continue to rule the world, or is Bitcoin going to become a new contender? Or perhaps some other cryptocurrency? I do sometimes wonder what some of the brilliant Core devs might do if they moved on from Bitcoin...

Very true and a great way to put it. The way I see it is, if one rock can build me a home for my family or somehow provide for me, it is worth way more to me personally than a rare rock that's main value comes from it's beauty & the fact that it doesn't tarnish. "Stores of value" are also weird to me because they again are based off of human perception. Gold is seen as a store of value because we've used it as one for 1000s of years, but all it takes is one group of people to decide "hey, this isn't a store of value anymore, it's basically useless wtf". I see no reason why gold should continue being a store of value except for the fact that it's always been considered that way. (and I own gold lol this is just discussion, stuff "that's always bugged me" about human society).

If you don't like it, feel free to create your own commie-coin and airdrop it to all people equally and see how it goes. Or create some UBI coin that will be stealing coins from top addresses and paying them to every wallet in the network. Feel free to experiment, comrade.

What gives something the perception of value, and why should I trust that tomorrow it will still be perceived as valuable? It's all subjective, "the flavor of the week" if you will.

At the end of the day, I'm starting to feel like we are all just monkeys arbitrarily trading rocks with eachother.

Congratulations, you have just invented the suvjected theory of value.

Lol damn man, sorry if I triggered you. I said in my message that I have ZERO clue how to fix this, and my suggestion didn't go that deep. I have zero clue how I'd distribute something, nor do I ever plan on doing so. This is just abstract thought.

Also, commie or capitalist (capitalist myself), WHY should the top 1% own 80% of the currency supply?

There's no good reason for it, but also no way to stop it. This happens nearly every time.

I'm saying no one has the answer, because we are all monkeys trading rocks.

And no i didn't say I invented anything, damn boi you are abrasive.

[pooya87]

What gives something value...? Some things are easy.

Land: we all need a place to live
Water: we need it to survive
Food: also needed to survive
Oil: we need it to run our rolling monkey-mobiles so we can get to the stores to buy the other things on the list above

the reason is always (technically) called "demand" it doesn't have to be a "usage" necessarily. it can be for any reason. like why do we buy jewelry and stuff like that it is not exactly need. but there is a demand that because of the scarce supply of say diamonds they are extra expensive.

Gold: Sure we can argue it's used in technology, but it was valuable for 1000's of years. Why? It's rare, yes, but what are u going to do with it??? lol

there are at least 50 or so, different usages for gold! it is not "just" because it is rare

[BitWhale]

What gives something value...? Some things are easy.

Land: we all need a place to live
Water: we need it to survive
Food: also needed to survive
Oil: we need it to run our rolling monkey-mobiles so we can get to the stores to buy the other things on the list above

the reason is always (technically) called "demand" it doesn't have to be a "usage" necessarily. it can be for any reason. like why do we buy jewelry and stuff like that it is not exactly need. but there is a demand that because of the scarce supply of say diamonds they are extra expensive.

Gold: Sure we can argue it's used in technology, but it was valuable for 1000's of years. Why? It's rare, yes, but what are u going to do with it??? lol

there are at least 50 or so, different usages for gold! it is not "just" because it is rare

I agree with you honestly, but I bet diamonds were fairly common until one of us monkeys picked one up and decided to show the world how pretty it is. Technically, we can make diamonds now for any sort of industrial need, yet De Beurs keeps the supply low and the demand high with their xmas "propose to her today" advertisements haha.

and I didn't realize gold had that many uses, it was probably a bad example but you get my point. I'll go look this up now because I'm curious.

Edit: definitely a few more uses than I led on to believe, I stand corrected. Electronics, space crafts, dentistry, medication, making stuff pretty, etc. I just don't like how some people treat the financial side of gold, I feel like that's played out, a 1000+ year old fallacy, yet something that will more than likely never end for as long as humans exist.

Diamonds are definitely the better example. Why are Diamonds the most pretty? I think Opal is fairly pretty, why not that? or something else? What's pretty one day might change tomorrow, why should I trust it's still relevant and pretty? haha

[pooya87]

I agree with you honestly, but I bet diamonds were pretty common until one of us monkeys picked it up and decided to show the world how pretty it is. Technically, we can make diamonds now for any sort of industrial need, yet de beurs keeps the supply low and the demand high with their xmas "propose to her today" advertisements haha.

well the process of making synthetic diamonds is an easy thing to just put in carbon and click a button to receive pure awesome with no impurity or crystallographic defects. it is costly too. and it needs high tech equipment. in other words they are not exactly "keeping the supply low".

Diamonds is definitely the better example. Why are Diamonds the most pretty? I think Opal is fairly pretty, why not that? or something else? What's pretty one day might change tomorrow, why should I trust it's still relevant and pretty? haha

yeah it is a better example but let me be a dick and say it: diamonds have more usages too. probably not as many as gold but still
for example i know 3 usages which also have used:
we use diamond paste for polishing metals, like in crystallography.
they are used in drills and stuff like that for cutting certain materials.
since they have the highest hardness in Mohs scale they are used in hardness test

there are some more weird stuff here too: http://www.heartsonfire.com/history-of-diamonds/unusual-diamond-uses.aspx

[BitWhale]

I agree with you honestly, but I bet diamonds were pretty common until one of us monkeys picked it up and decided to show the world how pretty it is. Technically, we can make diamonds now for any sort of industrial need, yet de beurs keeps the supply low and the demand high with their xmas "propose to her today" advertisements haha.

well the process of making synthetic diamonds is an easy thing to just put in carbon and click a button to receive pure awesome with no impurity or crystallographic defects. it is costly too. and it needs high tech equipment. in other words they are not exactly "keeping the supply low".

Diamonds is definitely the better example. Why are Diamonds the most pretty? I think Opal is fairly pretty, why not that? or something else? What's pretty one day might change tomorrow, why should I trust it's still relevant and pretty? haha

yeah it is a better example but let me be a dick and say it: diamonds have more usages too. probably not as many as gold but still
for example i know 3 usages which also have used:
we use diamond paste for polishing metals, like in crystallography.
they are used in drills and stuff like that for cutting certain materials.
since they have the highest hardness in Mohs scale they are used in hardness test

there are some more weird stuff here too: http://www.heartsonfire.com/history-of-diamonds/unusual-diamond-uses.aspx

Haha, you have me laughing man don't worry, sometimes the truth hurts, you aren't being a dick.

From my understanding (correct me if i'm wrong) they can create their own diamonds for most industrial needs now, which are the diamonds used for sawing/polishing/etc correct? Are there any industrial uses for natural diamonds that artificial diamonds can't replace?

It's the diamonds found in nature that are cut to make look shiney and sold as jewelry, again from my understanding.

I was saying basically that the only reason nice looking natural diamonds are expensive is because we perceive them as pretty. For industrial needs, we can now create as many as we want within reason, correct? The reason natural diamonds are "rare" is because people hunt them out and now all of the low hanging fruit has been found & locked up in De Beur's vault whom only releases so many per year in order to keep the price high.

There's no reason to believe that tomorrow someone will find enough diamonds to crash the market, or that public perception of diamonds will change, but, again the value is inflated because we see it as "pretty". (and no i'm not saying it will change, I'm just asking what stops it from changing?)

[pooya87]

Haha, you have me laughing man don't worry, sometimes the truth hurts, you aren't being a dick.

From my understanding (correct me if i'm wrong) they can create their own diamonds for most industrial needs now, which are the diamonds used for sawing/polishing/etc correct? Are there any industrial uses for natural diamonds that artificial diamonds can't replace?

It's the diamonds found in nature that are cut to make look shiney and sold as jewelry, again from my understanding.

it is different sizes, different qualities and different uses. for example the "diamond dust" is used for polishing,... and the artificial (bigger sizes) are used for industrial usages such as machining, drilling,...
i don't think there are any usages that they can't replace each other though.

and funny thing is, the synthetic diamond is with least defects! because you know it is made by the man in the laboratory under controlled environment. but in nature (the natural diamond) is subjected to variable environment and it actually has more defects. they use this to figure out if it is real or artificial. in other words real one sucks

I was saying basically that the only reason nice looking natural diamonds are expensive is because we perceive them as pretty. For industrial needs, we can now create as many as we want within reason, correct? The reason natural diamonds are "rare" is because people hunt them out and now all of the low hanging fruit has been found & locked up in De Beur's vault whom only releases so many per year in order to keep the price high.

There's no reason to believe that tomorrow someone will find enough diamonds to crash the market, or that public perception of diamonds will change, but, again the value is inflated because we see it as "pretty". (and no i'm not saying it will change, I'm just asking what stops it from changing?)

yeah, of course. we are the ones giving things their value. and if we stop it (blood diamonds) the value falls. also if diamonds grew on trees we would have used them to throw at cars like apples.

[AGD]

You forgot the most valuable and timeless trading asset in history: Sex

[freebutcaged]

With gold and or diamond or both combined you could enter heavens repeatedly and weekly, believe me, just buy a gold bracelet for her and she'll

Spread for you wide open. gold also has unique molecular structure and making females horny is one of it's many properties mate. diamond is forged

From billions of tones of pressure and extreme heat for millions of years in a timely process and it can cut through anything and everything, sure someone

Picked some of it and said; hey look how pretty this is just like when in ancient China they bathed in mercury which is a toxic liquid metal. Bitcoin uses

Equal electricity as a country like Iceland consumes, I don't call that easily obtained, yes the early miners and adopters are the current supply holders

But they started to mine when it was easy, however ever since thousands of people have tried to do the same thing and failed, because there are no

Big investors with billions of dollars continually investing and supporting them, first put a few billions on the table for other people to take and then

Many will come for the same money while building a supportive community in doing so, what are we doing here? we're here for our gains but at the same

Time we're helping the Bitcoin's biggest whales to get even bigger without them giving anything any more since they've already done so. actually if you want

To compare us with the rich BTC owners, they're like giant galaxies, after them there are other whales which we could compare them with small galaxies.

And down to the tiny creatures and members, we stand representing a cell in a body, and believe me when I tell you that there are even atoms and

Sub atomic particles(shitposters, posting for a few bucks a week) without the big bodies we couldn't exist while the big bodies are made from the same

Tiny particles, it is a circle of life and matter. only those who'd come and take whatever all of us worked hard to build and they use it wherever needed

And then transfer it to others.
Us government has sanctioned a large company, said company is unable to conduct business using any centralized banking system, so they see that there
Is something called a decentralized currency(which all of us community members+miners+admins+investors made it reality and we're the ones providing The means for it to exist) called Bitcoin and there are already millions of people willing to pay cash for it worldwide, that company starts buying as many as Possible or needed and then bypasses all of the sanctions and does their business with no fuss then sees the opportunity and joins the community to become A big star among all the galaxies(which doing that automatically gives value and increases the price of Bitcoin). so there is still so much to do with BTC, we
Haven't explored it completely yet, that's why we're not ready to do all of the things that we've done for BTC so far for another coin. we're still working hard
To improve it to see the results and earn big money for our future, this is a work in progress, we can't just leave it unfinished and move to a new coin(fork).

[ekoice]

Its the demand which gives value to bitcoin and the increasing demand due to which we believe that bitcoin value would exist tomorrow also.Bitcoin is got by solving mathematical algorithms a a result of which transactions are confirmed,the process which is called as mining.Bitcoin is far better than the paper currencies which is just a piece of paper which we believe has value since government says that it would pay the value in exchange and which is printed without any limits thus devaluing it.Also,bitcoin could not be devalued suddenly just as indian government did in high value notes.Thats why people prefer to hold than paper currency.

[hatshepsut93]

Also, commie or capitalist (capitalist myself), WHY should the top 1% own 80% of the currency supply?

There's no good reason for it, but also no way to stop it. This happens nearly every time.

I'm saying no one has the answer, because we are all monkeys trading rocks.

How can you be "capitalist" if you think that distribution of value via voluntary exchange is flawed because it leads to inequality?

People are not equal, some can create huge amounts of value and sell it for money, others produce very small amounts of value with their simple work. There's nothing wrong with X% of people owning Y % of economy, as long as the market is 100% free. Socialists who cry about top 1% just have a very childish understanding of fairness.

I'm saying no one has the answer, because we are all monkeys trading rocks.

Subjective theory of value is the answer. Marxists base their theory on presumption that labor and resources have some intrinsic value. If you understand that value is subjective, than you should advocate for 100% free unregulated markets.

[Przemax]

Money is basicly backed up by blood, sweat and tears. That what you have in your wallets, either its electronic or normal ones.

I know its gross. Its a lot less clean than trading rocks. You are basicly trading that someone need to hate their life having to wake up very early in the monday morning, to stand in the car traffic, then get abused by their employers, either verbaly or physicly in order for you to buy btc.

Thats the reality. Yeah I know, its not always that bad. Not every employer is abusive, not everyone hates their job. You can always be self employed. But most of the employers go bancrupt if they are not evil enough most of the time. So sometimes the cost of money is suicide of those that fail badly at entepreneurship, because they feel shame of failing with a tons of debts on their accounts.

If money is blood, sweat and tears - it does not change this fact if 20% of debt base currency is free from sweat and tears. Most of it is just a structural violence.

[oblivi]

Thank you gentlemen for the kind words, I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees things this way. This is something that I've thought about for a long time.

There are alot of things that make zero sense about the current financial state of our world, yet as they say "markets can stay irrational for longer than you can remain solvent".

We'd literally need to overhaul from the ground up, but since I am monkey after all, I honestly can't treally think of a better solution to solve these problems. At the end of the day, it will never make sense to create value out of nothing, or to create a "placeholder" for value that is used for trade.

I often wonder where people think the value to bitcoin comes from, the best answer I can come up with is "2 people decided on a price, other's accepted that as a real trade and made their own trades accordingly, and we keep playing off eachother from there" haha.

A decent idea for a fiat replacement is to have a currency that represents the current top 12 most traded commodities on the market. If one commodity on the list has less volume for a certain amount of time than another commodity, it will be removed from the list and replaced with another commodity in the top 12 volume list. This would make it so each piece of paper you own actually represents something of ACTUAL value to society, which can be traded in at any point for it's portion of the top 12 traded commodities.  Of course, this has it's own issues, mainly that it will cause artificial supply & demand because people will do arbitrage.

This could in theory create a stable currency, because traders will constantly exploit arbitrage opportunities so the currency represents the current market value of the list of commodities... It's also much harder to manipulate 12 things instead of just one (gold, bitcoin, etc). On the flip side, (same argument is being made about ETFs on the stock exchanges), it could cause higher volatility and large flash crashes because if one commodity drops, it's in the currency holders best interest to buy the 12 commodities and trade it into 1 piece of currency and sell it for market price until the currency's price reflects the true market value of it's commodity counterparts.

There is no easy answer basically, everything can be rigged some how lol. I'm surprised the founding fathers figured out half the shit they did +100 years ago, that's a feat i tell you what, especially since the vast majority still is very relevant to today's world.

You get a cookie. Two cookies, what the hell, its the weekend. Gotta let my hair down.

Cookies would make a good currency, they'd definitely be more in demand than supply eh haha.

Precisely because of that that we are still dealing with evolved monkeys, we need tools like money to establish of the game. I can't see any other way but capitalism to put societies in order and let them prosper into something. There's always going to be people that owns a lot, unless you want to control the money supply and limit everything.

Bitcoin has fair rules for everyone since day 1. The big Bitcoin whales were smart people, they didn't kill anyone and conquer any lands by force, unlike the current system.

The Bitcoin system is open source, and has a limited supply, everything is crystal clear for everyone to evaluate and participate, unlike the current system.

I think that is why Bitcoin is a step forwards in evolution: It sets decentralized, open source rules for everyone. The game is still the same, the rules get improved.

[BitWhale]

Also, commie or capitalist (capitalist myself), WHY should the top 1% own 80% of the currency supply?

There's no good reason for it, but also no way to stop it. This happens nearly every time.

I'm saying no one has the answer, because we are all monkeys trading rocks.

How can you be "capitalist" if you think that distribution of value via voluntary exchange is flawed because it leads to inequality?

People are not equal, some can create huge amounts of value and sell it for money, others produce very small amounts of value with their simple work. There's nothing wrong with X% of people owning Y % of economy, as long as the market is 100% free. Socialists who cry about top 1% just have a very childish understanding of fairness.

I'm saying no one has the answer, because we are all monkeys trading rocks.

Subjective theory of value is the answer. Marxists base their theory on presumption that labor and resources have some intrinsic value. If you understand that value is subjective, than you should advocate for 100% free unregulated markets.

Never said it was flawed, said it was inevitable. I'm not trying to fix stupid, that's impossible, but I do try to use this to my advantage to make trading decisions. You keep implying I'm trying to fix things.

If we want to argue flaws, both sides are flawed, at the end of the day these problems exist for both systems. Arguing with a hardcore Capitalist is just as bad as arguing with a hardcore Socialist, neither will reason and meet in the middle. There's no reason to label eachother when labels are half the problem, everyone is free to their opinion right? It's not like I'm trying to force these changes on you... it's a friendly discussion.

"100% free unregulated markets", apparently Bitcoin has already failed that, guess we will add that to the list of things we "wanted" for bitcoin, but no longer can "acheive".

Is it socialist of me because I don't trust your currency will be worth something tomorrow because it's backed by nothing but pipe-dreams and hash rates? How much of the current bitcoin marketcap do you think is actually represented by fiat value? or to put it another way: If we all were to cash out right now, what percentage would we get of it's current worth in fiat value?

Yes value is subjective, we can get into the diamond/water paradox if you want, but at the end of the day, I simply chose to base my value around things I can actually use, which means *to me* Bitcoin isn't backed by anything. I'm very sorry my opinion differs from yours...

"It's decentralized, for the people by the people"... ya ya, but when can I use it to buy groceries for my family? put gas in my car? and I mean actually use it, not use a company that exchanges my Bitcoin to Fiat for a fee and then lets me pump gas with it... when is Bitcoin going to be more to me than a "investment vehicle" that I use to profit from?

And when are we going to stop pretending that the vast majority of users aren't here for fiat gains? It seems to me each time bitcoin rises, we get a fresh flood of hungry noobs that pile ontop of the already giant pile of people looking to profit. It's only the hardcore 20% that push the bitcoin narrative.

You act like Bitcoin is a free unregulated market, yet I see exchanges losing money to regulation left and right. I see exchanges excluding states & countries because of rules & sanctions. I see exchanges blacklisting coins from Money Laundering, Heists, & Gambling. Is that what you call a 100% free unregulated market? Lol.

I have to exchange to fiat to do much good with my bitcoin, so technically I'M STILL USING FIAT... "but you can buy a Tesla from Bitpremier, or some Alpaca socks on OpenBazaar"...   and let's not pretend like if we suddenly had a bitcoin-only economy there would be no regulation LOL. Let's not be delusional now...

So far, all I see is a bunch of monkeys, including myself, buying rocks and talking about how in the future these rocks will take over the world. It doesn't bother me to look at it and say "hey, this really isn't all that sane, there's alot of holes in this story"... I am an unbiased outsider looking in (for the last 6 years), it's what allows me to get out in time and not be clouded by grandiose dreams of private islands & million-dollar bitcoins.

All I am asking is why? I never said I wanted to fix it, I said it was something that is inevitable with all types of currency. Lol All I asked is how people can sit there and say "bitcoin is so much better" when it clearly has the same issues traditional fiat currencies have, such as being created out of thin air, regulated out the ass, useful only to a specific group of people, & being distributed to & controlled by the people highest up on the foodchain.

It won't ever get fixed, you can look at ANY economy using any type of currency (socialist or capitalist) and they have the same issues, because we are monkeys trading rocks and monkeys will always be greedy.

If it makes me a Socialist to point out the obvious holes in this story, than by all means, I am a Socialist haha.

At least Bitcoin is an improvement in the "controlled by people for the people" department. I like that I can send from my own living room directly to anyone in the world without a middleman (kind of) within 10 minutes for about $3 or less. It's a great system that is extremely innovative and deserves an applause, but I don't believe bitcoin should be worth as much as it is. If it needed to support billions of dollars in daily-life transactions, I can definitely see it being more expensive...

Right now though, we are just playing the "hoarding game". Who can collect the most bitrocks?