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RoyalKingdomEnterprise (OP)
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August 08, 2017, 04:02:12 PM
 #1

Hi BitcoinTalk!

Opening an official thread for our project, distributed exchange called Tomorrow Exchange.



Tomorrow Exchange is a distributed cryptocurrency exchange, a sweet spot between centralized and decentralized (non-existent at all yet) exchanges, combining security and usability of both.

Have questions? Ask away.

Website: https://tomorrowex.com

White paper: https://buildsecureapps.com/articles/on-secure-cryptocurrency-exchange

Video Review:


ICO thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2052334.0 (closing on 11 Aug)

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August 08, 2017, 07:20:16 PM
 #2

Reserved.

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August 08, 2017, 07:51:02 PM
 #3

Don't you guys have web version something like browser extension, I personally don't like to download anything on first glance. Is it something similar to bitsquare or offers something different.

Will go through whitepaper shortly, sound interesting.

 
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RoyalKingdomEnterprise (OP)
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August 08, 2017, 08:05:43 PM
 #4

Don't you guys have web version something like browser extension, I personally don't like to download anything on first glance
Hi amacar2,

If you need a web version, centralized exchanges provide that. Our exchange being a downloadable Open Source client is the most crucial security feature.

Quote
Is it something similar to bitsquare or offers something different.
Well, the video explains this, and white paper mentions bitsquare, but to explain quickly, bitsquare is a decentralized marketplace, like Local Bitcoins; and Tomorrow Exchange is a distributed exchange - with central order book, automatic matching, charts (soon), etc. and yet it's more secure than currently existing centralized exchanges.

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Will go through whitepaper shortly, sound interesting.
And there is also an option of watching the video, cause it's shorter.

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August 08, 2017, 11:41:05 PM
 #5

Will this platform includes Bitcoin Cash with private key storing options ?
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August 09, 2017, 12:14:40 AM
 #6

Will this platform includes Bitcoin Cash with private key storing options ?
The next planned crypto to add is exactly Bitcoin Cash. We're on it.

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August 09, 2017, 02:41:41 PM
 #7

At first will RKC  only be available to trade on the Tomorrow Exchange?
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August 09, 2017, 02:43:28 PM
 #8

At first will RKC  only be available to trade on the Tomorrow Exchange?
Please ask questions about RKC in the RKC thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2052334.new#new

We are communicating with several exchanges. At this moment, we are positive that at list Bittrex will list us.

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August 09, 2017, 02:54:58 PM
 #9

The concept is nice.
However, in the video you do not explain what happen to coins currently linked to pending orders.
It is clear that coins not on orders are store in private wallets on user's pc...
but pending orders?
Are the coins tied to the pending orders sent somewhere? hence the "distributed" nature?


thanks
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August 09, 2017, 03:14:02 PM
 #10

The concept is nice.
However, in the video you do not explain what happen to coins currently linked to pending orders.
It is clear that coins not on orders are store in private wallets on user's pc...
but pending orders?
Are the coins tied to the pending orders sent somewhere? hence the "distributed" nature?

Exactly. The coins are sent to our nodes to perform the exchange. But even this situation is better than the order on the centralized exchange.

For each order, you get a cryptographically signed guarantee before sending anything to the nodes. It ensures that your money will not just disappear, and that we cannot just change your order willy-nilly, for example, to get you the price worse than you asked for, stealing the difference.

So, at each point in time, both passive and active funds are accounted for. Passive (not on the orders) is safe on your computer, and for active (on the orders) you get a crypto guarantee.

So only money on the orders is at risk, but:

1) Users can hold us accountable, because they know and can prove exactly how much they've sent (if you have an insured centralized exchange, you can't provably claim your money, you have to trust their compromised database);
2) In the next versions we plan to only keep the top of the orders, not the whole order book;
3) We have more ideas on security that we are testing right now.

But even the current setup is already much safer than centralized exchanges.

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August 09, 2017, 03:25:34 PM
 #11

Always excited to see more competition and innovation for decentralized exchanges, but your whitepaper seems (at least in places) poorly researched, notably Blocknet has working and verifiable atomic swaps functioning already.

The concept is nice.
However, in the video you do not explain what happen to coins currently linked to pending orders.
It is clear that coins not on orders are store in private wallets on user's pc...
but pending orders?
Are the coins tied to the pending orders sent somewhere? hence the "distributed" nature?

Exactly. The coins are sent to our nodes to perform the exchange. But even this situation is better than the order on the centralized exchange.

For each order, you get a cryptographically signed guarantee before sending anything to the nodes. It ensures that your money will not just disappear, and that we cannot just change your order willy-nilly, for example, to get you the price worse than you asked for, stealing the difference.

So, at each point in time, both passive and active funds are accounted for. Passive (not on the orders) is safe on your computer, and for active (on the orders) you get a crypto guarantee.

So only money on the orders is at risk, but:

1) Users can hold us accountable, because they know and can prove exactly how much they've sent (if you have an insured centralized exchange, you can't provably claim your money, you have to trust their compromised database);
2) In the next versions we plan to only keep the top of the orders, not the whole order book;
3) We have more ideas on security that we are testing right now.

But even the current setup is already much safer than centralized exchanges.

That's not really decentralized, is it?
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August 09, 2017, 03:32:08 PM
 #12

The concept is nice.
However, in the video you do not explain what happen to coins currently linked to pending orders.
It is clear that coins not on orders are store in private wallets on user's pc...
but pending orders?
Are the coins tied to the pending orders sent somewhere? hence the "distributed" nature?

Exactly. The coins are sent to our nodes to perform the exchange. But even this situation is better than the order on the centralized exchange.

For each order, you get a cryptographically signed guarantee before sending anything to the nodes. It ensures that your money will not just disappear, and that we cannot just change your order willy-nilly, for example, to get you the price worse than you asked for, stealing the difference.

So, at each point in time, both passive and active funds are accounted for. Passive (not on the orders) is safe on your computer, and for active (on the orders) you get a crypto guarantee.

So only money on the orders is at risk, but:

1) Users can hold us accountable, because they know and can prove exactly how much they've sent (if you have an insured centralized exchange, you can't provably claim your money, you have to trust their compromised database);
2) In the next versions we plan to only keep the top of the orders, not the whole order book;
3) We have more ideas on security that we are testing right now.

But even the current setup is already much safer than centralized exchanges.

Hm... then that's totally putting trust on you... that's exactly the problem....

It's really not a good way to present yourself when you bash other projects when you yourself aren't truly trustless and decentralized.   
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August 09, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
Last edit: August 09, 2017, 04:05:07 PM by RoyalKingdomEnterprise
 #13

Always excited to see more competition and innovation for decentralized exchanges
Oh hey stormingj! I remember you from the Blocknet slack. Always nice to have a cross-team conversation!

Quote
That's not really decentralized, is it?
Yeah, we are highlighting this property everywhere in our marketing materials. It still has a server to match the orders, but it's much more secure than current centralized approaches. The word "decentralized" is so overused and abused right now. The community doesn't want decentralization, it wants security first. Decentralization comes after it.

For what it's worth, we could claim that it's still decentralized in a sense that passive funds are stored in a decentralized manner, or in a sense that we'd have more than one server (and some startups do exactly that), but we don't want any confusion over it or misleading statements. So "distributed" it is.

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Blocknet has working and verifiable atomic swaps functioning already.
Yeah, I know, on testnet, not production-ready, without a UI, without users, without any external code review for vulnerabilities. Listen, as I said both in the video and the paper, your path (atomic swaps) is the best right now and it certainly trumps DEXes outright lying about decentralization. But when are you going to release it already? The only problem I have with you is timing (you're working on it since 2014). And the community needs a more secure solution right now.

And if you will not make your DEX release in half a year, we are just going to do it ourselves and connect atomic swaps functionality to Tomorrow Exchange as an option. And we're not stealing anything, because the atomic swaps algorithm does not belong to Blocknet, it was proposed long before it.

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but your whitepaper seems (at least in places) poorly researched
All feedback is welcome. How's your white paper going by the way?

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August 09, 2017, 03:52:51 PM
 #14

Hm... then that's totally putting trust on you...
There is always some level of trust when it comes to crypto, even when someone tells you otherwise (do you trust him on that?)

Our job is to minimize that trust to the minimum level possible.

Quote
It's really not a good way to present yourself when you bash other projects when you yourself aren't truly trustless and decentralized.  
We bash other projects because they're outright lying about being trustless and decentralized.

We say up-front that's not the case with us. Can you find any statements that we're "trustless and decentralized"?

But we also explain that the trust is minimized and it's much less than the one required on current centralized exchanges.

If you're still not okay with that, well, do you know any real DEX I can use right now? That's the point.

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August 09, 2017, 04:06:08 PM
 #15

The concept is nice.
However, in the video you do not explain what happen to coins currently linked to pending orders.
It is clear that coins not on orders are store in private wallets on user's pc...
but pending orders?
Are the coins tied to the pending orders sent somewhere? hence the "distributed" nature?

Exactly. The coins are sent to our nodes to perform the exchange. But even this situation is better than the order on the centralized exchange.


Thank you for the quick answer Smiley
As you can imagine, after BTCe there is a lot of hype on decentralized/distributed exchange.

I have further questions:

coins on orders are sent in advance?
Meaning:
current btc price 1 dollar.
I place a sell order at 2 dollars for 2 btc.
My 2 BTC are sent in advance to the server nodes... till order is execute?
(meaning severs will store my BTC for an hour or a day or a week... depending on when price meet my target).

If so, I see a problem in that.
Trading activity means place different orders in advance.
If coins are actually sent for each pending order... there is no difference between any other exchange.
People always tell that "you must not store your coins on a exchange".
But they fail to understand that most of the people that stored coins on exchanges... had these coins in pending orders.
Not passively sitting on the online wallet.

Possible solutions:
send the coins only when the transaction is closed.
Not in advance.
The nodes take care of all the administrative exchange and book order... and only when a sell order meet a buy order... coins are sent.
Therefore, till the last second users will have the coins on their private wallets.

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1) Users can hold us accountable,

users hold MtGox accountable ...
we are holding BTCe accountable ...
This does not provide any additional guarantee, unfortunately :\
Neither the crypto signature.
Take BTCe for example. The problem is not the amount of money or coins we had... even if there was a crypto signature for BTCe... it will have make no difference.

The value of hold you accountable, depends upon your reputation and solidity.
And, as history told us, reputation and solidity are not the solution.

Just my two cents, obliviously Smiley


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August 09, 2017, 04:09:53 PM
 #16

Hm... then that's totally putting trust on you...
There is always some level of trust when it comes to crypto, even when someone tells you otherwise (do you trust him on that?)

Our job is to minimize that trust to the minimum level possible.

Quote
It's really not a good way to present yourself when you bash other projects when you yourself aren't truly trustless and decentralized.  
We bash other projects because they're outright lying about being trustless and decentralized.

We say up-front that's not the case with us. Can you find any statements that we're "trustless and decentralized"?

But we also explain that the trust is minimized and it's much less than the one required on current centralized exchanges.

If you're still not okay with that, well, do you know any real DEX I can use right now? That's the point.

Then you haven't done your research before you started this project....  Here are videos to show you what truly TRUSTLESS, DECENTRALIZED and ATOMIC swap working is like... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCDBoR9fHb21bLH7FGvFrQg
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August 09, 2017, 04:13:37 PM
 #17

To test the trade, take the coin MARYCOIN, clone BTC
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1929459.0

мoжнo пoлнocтью пpoтecтиpoвaть вce вaши нoвыe идeи бeз pиcкa пoтepять BTC

YENTEN - YescryptR16 - NO PREMINE - ASIC RESISTANT - WALLET MINING - COMMUNITY MANAGED - ADULT MALES
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August 09, 2017, 04:15:40 PM
 #18

coins on orders are sent in advance?
(meaning severs will store my BTC for an hour or a day or a week... depending on when price meet my target).
I've already mentioned this - it's only like this in the current version. We are going to gradually have more and more security features, and ICO money will help us greatly in this.

Answering your question, we only want to keep the top orders, and only tell the client to send the order when the price meets the target.

Quote
People always tell that "you must not store your coins on a exchange".
But they fail to understand that most of the people that stored coins on exchanges... had these coins in pending orders.
Not passively sitting on the online wallet.
You would be surprised how many did. Because the system does not incentivize them to store them off-wallet. We would need a poll or something to find out, but I suspect that many just stored the money there out of convenience, .

Quote
send the coins only when the transaction is closed.
Not in advance.
Exactly. One of the planned features.

Quote
users hold MtGox accountable ...
we are holding BTCe accountable ...
This does not provide any additional guarantee, unfortunately :\
Yeah, this only provides security from
1) Silently stealing orders from people
2) Not being sure about insolvency (we plan to broadcast incidents like this P2P so that clients temporarily try to recover money asap when even one order is not executed)

It's already a lot, but not a complete security from theft of the order book. But as I said, we will gradually getting there as well.

Quote
Just my two cents, obliviously Smiley
Thank you for your good questions!

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August 09, 2017, 04:17:14 PM
 #19

Then you haven't done your research before you started this project....  Here are videos to show you what truly TRUSTLESS, DECENTRALIZED and ATOMIC swap working is like... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCDBoR9fHb21bLH7FGvFrQg

Oh I had a hunch that you're from Blocknet side as well. Please read the reply to stormingj above.

I said I don't have any problem with Blocknet (which in theory should be what it is when it's actually released), except timing. If you release "trustless, decentralized and atomic swap" before us and develop a UI and finally publish the white paper and get its security reviewed and widely used and stuff - good luck. But I suspect we might have to wait for 2050 with your speed.

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August 09, 2017, 04:19:09 PM
 #20

To test the trade, take the coin MARYCOIN, clone BTC
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1929459.0
It's a marketplace, not an exchange, right?

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мoжнo пoлнocтью пpoтecтиpoвaть вce вaши нoвыe идeи бeз pиcкa пoтepять BTC
Бeз pиcкa? Cepьeзнo? A чтo ecли мeня cocкaмят нa плoщaдкe?
And let's speak English here anyway.

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