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Author Topic: Why all the bitcoin haters?  (Read 3954 times)
Nagle
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June 22, 2011, 07:58:34 PM
 #21

There's no contradiction between the early adopters getting rich and bitcoin failing to keep its value in the future. All that's required for them to get rich is for the price to go high enough for long enough and with enough BTC-USD trading volume. Once that's been managed, the whole thing can fail spectacularly and they'll still have a small fortune if they've played their cards right. In fact, it's possible the process of them cashing out will be partly what triggers the whole thing to fail spectacularly.

Exactly. That's the way most pump and dump schemes go. There's a good chance it's already gone.

Everyone speculating on Bitcoins needs to read Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. Especially the part on Tulipomania. This book was published in 1852, and reports all the classic make-money-fast schemes in their Version 1 form. 
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June 22, 2011, 08:27:16 PM
 #22

It's unproven. It's actually very reasonable and intelligent to be distrustful of Bitcoin, as long as you don't read into it much. I completely understand why so many people are hating on Bitcoin, you really do have to learn a lot about it to realize why it isn't a definite scam or guaranteed to fail.

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June 22, 2011, 09:18:31 PM
 #23

Since I am skeptical towards bitcoin, I guess that makes me a hater?

I am not afraid of bitcoins. I understand how they work. I have quite a good grasp on economy, mathematics, markets and trading. That is why I am skeptical towards bitcoin. The thing is, bitcoin does have quite a few legitimate skeptical questions surrounding it, and after reading these forums for quite some time before registering, I've seen that the biggest enemy for bitcoin in the "battle" towards becoming a full on currency alternative are the evangelists.

Any skeptical question is immediately shot down with "troll", "you don't know how it works", "get out of here" and other replies in the same tone. Sure, there are a fair share of utter retards posting nonsense here trying to look cool or whatever in bashing bitcoins, but not all of us are being skeptical just to be skeptical.

If I have a question about a problem with bitcoins, and ask it in a normal polite manner, I would expect a normal and polite answer. If I'm wrong and my problems are only perceived problems, then by all means show me what I'm not getting. I would welcome it, since it would give me a chance to learn. But the "oldtimers" very often seem to be in instant attack mode for any skeptics, and don't even bother answer questions properly. That's why, after all my time reading, I'm still skeptical. I don't see anyone actually tackling the problems that bitcoin is having.
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June 22, 2011, 09:42:17 PM
 #24

I don't see anyone actually tackling the problems that bitcoin is having.

What exactly are some of those problems?

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June 22, 2011, 10:20:34 PM
 #25

I don't see anyone actually tackling the problems that bitcoin is having.

What exactly are some of those problems?

1. User friendliness. (which is a *very* large topic, ranging from the banking system to the security built-in in the client). Just one random example: when you are on a website, how do you guarantee that the bitcoin address is valid and redirecting well to your seller? Answer, you don't know.

Nobody seems to work on it.

2. Real market.

Nobody seems to work on it. Every single bitcoin webshop looks like it was designed in 1997 and tested on Netscape 3. Not to mention the fact that there's very few things to buy and that the process is really complicated, you have to understand a lot of things (including escrow) but this goes back to point 1. Well, let be honnes

3. Professionnal look

Between a "Bitcoin show" where you can see people trying to launch skype for 48 minutes or interviewer saying ah… hum… ah… with a non-fonctionnal microphone to anarchists who advertize well that they use drugs and are proud of it, it is difficult to make something look less serious than that. ( http://thebitcoinsun.com/post/2011/05/28/Welcome-To-The-Bitcoin-Community ;-) )

The weusecoins.com was a very good try to tackle that problem.


So, basically, people are very enthusiast because bitcoin *might* be the foundation of something very big. A lot of early bitcoiners are euphoric because of the quick money they did.

But most of us are just uneducated, unexperienced new rich. The MtGox story is just one more example.

We forgot that foundations are not enough. If you don't have the wall, the roof, the window and a shiny layer of paint, nobody want your house.

We are now at one of the many turning point. Either nobody really invest in Bitcoin and it will die, either someone decide that it worths investing 1 million of $ in this and hire professionnals. He build a complete banking protocol on top of bitcoin, built a network of market maker to stabilize the price and build trust with the traditionnal online merchant, offering for example an API which allow them to accept bitcoin but converting them instantly, at a known rate, to dollars or euros.

If I had 1 million of dollars,  I would do that. This is much needed. Just to give you an idea: I'm a professionnal web hosting maintainer. And I decided to not host any bitcoin related service long ago because, as a professionnal, I knew I was not good enough in security for such critical services. It looks like I was right but that nobody else was. I'm also an usability engineer and I can say that bitcoin is doing *everything* as wrong as it can be in that aspect.

If you have 1 million of dollars to invest in a bitcoin startup that would foster definitely bitcoin, contact me. If not, like me, wait for someone to tackle the problem.

We need walls, we need roof, we need shiny paint.

Blog posts about Bitcoin - 1KdRBbhjo72CqKTrFsQed6s9NMrvwvrUkq
muscles
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June 22, 2011, 10:32:24 PM
 #26

bitcoin is confusing as fuck

Selling these things:
Wireless Cable Modem Gateway: SURFboard SBG900 DOCSIS 2.0: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24518.0 - 3.33BTC
12V DC Car Wet/Dry Vacuum: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24521.0 - 0.6BTC
Flip Cam HD Mino 4GB: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=26628.0
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June 22, 2011, 10:44:16 PM
 #27

I would say the majority is not understanding of Bitcoin in general and is what causes the negativity.

Agreed! Most of the negativity is coming from people who (incorrectly) believe they have no place in the digital currency market because all of their assets are tangible (cash, house, etc). What they don't understand is that if they have savings in the bank...its digitally stored. What they get from an ATM is just a printout (cash in paper bills) of their account.

---
Its not a revolution, digital currency is the future and we're just catching up.
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June 23, 2011, 12:17:38 AM
 #28

They're jelly because they need the hardware to play.
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June 23, 2011, 12:23:42 AM
 #29

nah, those guys hate everything Wink

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June 23, 2011, 12:40:31 AM
 #30

people are afraid mainly because of uncertainty of the market. and there is also the fact that bitcoins are used for illegal trading which deters some people from becoming involved
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June 23, 2011, 01:42:24 AM
 #31

I don't see anyone actually tackling the problems that bitcoin is having.

What exactly are some of those problems?

1. User friendliness. (which is a *very* large topic, ranging from the banking system to the security built-in in the client). Just one random example: when you are on a website, how do you guarantee that the bitcoin address is valid and redirecting well to your seller? Answer, you don't know.

Nobody seems to work on it.

2. Real market.

Nobody seems to work on it. Every single bitcoin webshop looks like it was designed in 1997 and tested on Netscape 3. Not to mention the fact that there's very few things to buy and that the process is really complicated, you have to understand a lot of things (including escrow) but this goes back to point 1. Well, let be honnes

3. Professionnal look

Between a "Bitcoin show" where you can see people trying to launch skype for 48 minutes or interviewer saying ah… hum… ah… with a non-fonctionnal microphone to anarchists who advertize well that they use drugs and are proud of it, it is difficult to make something look less serious than that. ( http://thebitcoinsun.com/post/2011/05/28/Welcome-To-The-Bitcoin-Community ;-) )

The weusecoins.com was a very good try to tackle that problem.


So, basically, people are very enthusiast because bitcoin *might* be the foundation of something very big. A lot of early bitcoiners are euphoric because of the quick money they did.

But most of us are just uneducated, unexperienced new rich. The MtGox story is just one more example.

We forgot that foundations are not enough. If you don't have the wall, the roof, the window and a shiny layer of paint, nobody want your house.

We are now at one of the many turning point. Either nobody really invest in Bitcoin and it will die, either someone decide that it worths investing 1 million of $ in this and hire professionnals. He build a complete banking protocol on top of bitcoin, built a network of market maker to stabilize the price and build trust with the traditionnal online merchant, offering for example an API which allow them to accept bitcoin but converting them instantly, at a known rate, to dollars or euros.

If I had 1 million of dollars,  I would do that. This is much needed. Just to give you an idea: I'm a professionnal web hosting maintainer. And I decided to not host any bitcoin related service long ago because, as a professionnal, I knew I was not good enough in security for such critical services. It looks like I was right but that nobody else was. I'm also an usability engineer and I can say that bitcoin is doing *everything* as wrong as it can be in that aspect.

If you have 1 million of dollars to invest in a bitcoin startup that would foster definitely bitcoin, contact me. If not, like me, wait for someone to tackle the problem.

We need walls, we need roof, we need shiny paint.


Very good explanation.
I also think that there are big Problems to solve.
Bitcoin was Designed as anonymous "money", but is now more like an Prepaid Creditcard,
easy to steal with the security number inculsive ;-)

I think it could be changed if the community
spends some Tenthousand Dollars (like an Kickstarter project)
To improve, Security,and usability and maybe to Start Selling things and so on.
every Bitcoin user would spend because this would make BC more worth....

Coinbase - All your money are belong to us  Cheesy -> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us
Ratman2050
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June 24, 2011, 10:37:33 PM
 #32

I don't see anyone actually tackling the problems that bitcoin is having.

What exactly are some of those problems?

1. User friendliness. (which is a *very* large topic, ranging from the banking system to the security built-in in the client). Just one random example: when you are on a website, how do you guarantee that the bitcoin address is valid and redirecting well to your seller? Answer, you don't know.

Nobody seems to work on it.

2. Real market.

Nobody seems to work on it. Every single bitcoin webshop looks like it was designed in 1997 and tested on Netscape 3. Not to mention the fact that there's very few things to buy and that the process is really complicated, you have to understand a lot of things (including escrow) but this goes back to point 1. Well, let be honnes

3. Professionnal look

Between a "Bitcoin show" where you can see people trying to launch skype for 48 minutes or interviewer saying ah… hum… ah… with a non-fonctionnal microphone to anarchists who advertize well that they use drugs and are proud of it, it is difficult to make something look less serious than that. ( http://thebitcoinsun.com/post/2011/05/28/Welcome-To-The-Bitcoin-Community ;-) )

The weusecoins.com was a very good try to tackle that problem.


So, basically, people are very enthusiast because bitcoin *might* be the foundation of something very big. A lot of early bitcoiners are euphoric because of the quick money they did.

But most of us are just uneducated, unexperienced new rich. The MtGox story is just one more example.

We forgot that foundations are not enough. If you don't have the wall, the roof, the window and a shiny layer of paint, nobody want your house.

We are now at one of the many turning point. Either nobody really invest in Bitcoin and it will die, either someone decide that it worths investing 1 million of $ in this and hire professionnals. He build a complete banking protocol on top of bitcoin, built a network of market maker to stabilize the price and build trust with the traditionnal online merchant, offering for example an API which allow them to accept bitcoin but converting them instantly, at a known rate, to dollars or euros.

If I had 1 million of dollars,  I would do that. This is much needed. Just to give you an idea: I'm a professionnal web hosting maintainer. And I decided to not host any bitcoin related service long ago because, as a professionnal, I knew I was not good enough in security for such critical services. It looks like I was right but that nobody else was. I'm also an usability engineer and I can say that bitcoin is doing *everything* as wrong as it can be in that aspect.

If you have 1 million of dollars to invest in a bitcoin startup that would foster definitely bitcoin, contact me. If not, like me, wait for someone to tackle the problem.

We need walls, we need roof, we need shiny paint.


Very good explanation.
I also think that there are big Problems to solve.
Bitcoin was Designed as anonymous "money", but is now more like an Prepaid Creditcard,
easy to steal with the security number inculsive ;-)

I think it could be changed if the community
spends some Tenthousand Dollars (like an Kickstarter project)
To improve, Security,and usability and maybe to Start Selling things and so on.
every Bitcoin user would spend because this would make BC more worth....


The user friendliness example doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me. If you are using Bitcoins at a restaurant by the time you grab a drink the cashier checks his wallet and sees that you have successful paid the restaurant. I guess for web based stuff, to automate the process, email confirmations can be sent out when a bitcoin is successfully added to their wallet.

There isn't a real large competing market, and I guess it's not as professional as some say, but then again I'd say that's more of a cosmetic issue.

I think people need to have a general grasp at the security of things. Take for example a debit card, the bank mails you this card, anyone can easily steal the card from your mailbox. Similarly anyone can steal a debit card, the same way anyone can steal bitcoins. If people just treated bitcoins like debit cards and put their wallet on a USB drive they would be fine.

Or if they encrypted their data and made backups to make sure everything was secure, I think the bitcoin client should have an auto encrypt feature for protection. I guess bitcoins are not as easy as getting a debit card mailed to your house, but similarly enough there is something called bitbills which serves as the same function.

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ploum
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June 24, 2011, 11:07:15 PM
 #33

The user friendliness example doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me.

You are a geek. You simply cannot understand. I know, I'm fighting this every single day since the last 10 years.

Do you know the difference between the Ipod and all the other MP3 players that were on the market 2 years before the Ipod? The Ipod is more expansive. And is user friendly.

Same goes for the Iphone and everything else.

1% of the geek population care about effectiveness, security and stuffs like that. (they are using Linux for example). 99% want something easy. Or very cool. Paying will never be cool. As long as bitcoin is not usable by brain dead morons, no chance to seeing taking of.

(And as I said somewhere else, I have the complete plan written to make Bitcoin user friendly. But I believe that developing everything I describe in that document will cost something like 20 or 30 man/months. I cannot afford that, unfortunately)

Blog posts about Bitcoin - 1KdRBbhjo72CqKTrFsQed6s9NMrvwvrUkq
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June 24, 2011, 11:08:51 PM
 #34

In my personal opinion many people think they missed the boat on something potentially big so they slam it because they weren't aware. I also think the security reasons are another big factor, but we'll see what happens with Bitcoin soon.

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This forum sucks.


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June 24, 2011, 11:50:14 PM
 #35

There are lots of uninteresting reasons why people might hate Bitcoin, ranging from pure jealousy to healthy skepticism.
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June 25, 2011, 02:06:50 AM
 #36

Forums..make me nervous..

So I'll just apologize now..in advance for the irritation I may cause to..anyone.

Sorry if I'm "Doing It Wrong".

Truly.

Anyway.."An Answer" to:

"Why All The Super Enraged Propaganda And Madness Against Bitcoin"? (Paraphrased obviously)

As a "Progressive"..and "Country Boy" (aka "Obedience? What's That?")..I gotta say:

1) "These Are people Who..'Instinctively'..loathe and despise: 'AUTONOMY'!"

Autonomy is not merely a "Threat" to..well..frankly a terrifyingly large number of "Humans"..but is viewed..as a straight up "Personal Attack Against Them..um..Personally". I'm absolutely serious here people. This is real "Psychology" we're dealing with. Especially in current ra "America" a veritable "Culture" of Confrontation and Control.

Primary Threat: The "Threat" of an Autonomous Financial "Instrument" is VERY Real. I have Already Read and Heard..I repeat.."Already"..the words "Terrorism" used Dozens of times over the course of the last 6 months while referring to "BTC".

2) As stated above.."Confusion".

Yeah..good old: "Feeling Frustrated At Not Understanding The Concept, And It Not Being 'Plug n' Play'." Has MANY Folks "Angry" as in straight-up.."Road Rage" Angry.Genuine..Real..Anger. Y'know..Angry. Fer Reals.

Again.."Psychology" is very..nay..scratch that..Tragically...real in this instance.

Its "New"..and Is..Frankly..Complicated and.."Free".

And 'Aye There's The Rub". Free in all the "Worst Ways" to the Lock Step Minds of People whom..have a umm..how shall I say.."Low Tolerance for Independence". The Kind Of People Who Go On A Talk Show And Say "Autonomy is Not A Right!" Etc..

This is "Free Will Monetized" and guess what? THAT..ain't spose'd to be happening. Again..this is simply Reality. Its a Threat.

I have been somewhat surprised to notice the..Lack..of interest in "Suddenness" of the Attacks against BTC. "Day's" after FBI is given Green Light for "Expanded Operational Guidelines"..Shazam! Many "True Privacy" Person to Person (Face to Face) Sites G-o-n-e! (bitcoin-trade?)And Mt Gox "Attacked". Coincidence? Or "Free Reign, Go Get Em Boy's And Make An Example Of Em!" (?)

Also..lastly..there has been a slew..rash.. of "Can Anyone 'Lend Me' Their User Name and Password Because I Cannot Get Into (site xyz)..whine..whimper..blink-blink (all innocent intentions and 'Keen Kid' Big Crying Eye's).."

What We're All Involved In Here? It's Under Attack Because Its Autonomous And lacks Centralized Authoritarian Control Mechanisms. The Hierarchical Top-Down Power Structure has Spent Decades  making absolutely certain "This Sort Of Thing"..Doesn't Happen. Oops!

Anyway..that's my PerSop.
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June 25, 2011, 04:03:20 AM
 #37

The user friendliness example doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me.

You are a geek. You simply cannot understand. I know, I'm fighting this every single day since the last 10 years.

Do you know the difference between the Ipod and all the other MP3 players that were on the market 2 years before the Ipod? The Ipod is more expansive. And is user friendly.

Same goes for the Iphone and everything else.

1% of the geek population care about effectiveness, security and stuffs like that. (they are using Linux for example). 99% want something easy. Or very cool. Paying will never be cool. As long as bitcoin is not usable by brain dead morons, no chance to seeing taking of.

(And as I said somewhere else, I have the complete plan written to make Bitcoin user friendly. But I believe that developing everything I describe in that document will cost something like 20 or 30 man/months. I cannot afford that, unfortunately)

I understand what you mean now. Yes it is pretty user unfriendly then. Gives me food for thought..

In my personal opinion many people think they missed the boat on something potentially big so they slam it because they weren't aware. I also think the security reasons are another big factor, but we'll see what happens with Bitcoin soon.

People shouldn't slam it that hard yet..I mean it's only just claimed its fame. People are just pissed they didn't cash out at the penny prices per BTC. But I believe there is still money to be made.

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June 25, 2011, 07:39:59 AM
 #38

There's no contradiction between the early adopters getting rich and bitcoin failing to keep its value in the future. All that's required for them to get rich is for the price to go high enough for long enough and with enough BTC-USD trading volume. Once that's been managed, the whole thing can fail spectacularly and they'll still have a small fortune if they've played their cards right. In fact, it's possible the process of them cashing out will be partly what triggers the whole thing to fail spectacularly.

Exactly. That's the way most pump and dump schemes go. There's a good chance it's already gone.


I hope so. Because the price is still $17. If the "dump" is over, then great. That means we can get on with it.
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June 25, 2011, 07:55:19 AM
 #39

Everybody always loves the status quo, you know...

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June 25, 2011, 08:03:58 AM
 #40

It takes far too much reading to understand bitcoin. Like anything that you didn't grow up with it is hard to integrate it into a world view. There is always resistance to change and given the complexity of bitcoin it is going to be ridiculed until it has laid down a solid track record and shown itself resistant to continuous and real attack.

There are problems with it so smart people have reason to be wary. Given the potential for freeing the world from centralized economic control it is bound to be attacked with the full force of the current world order once they fully understand how to best do that.

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