[ANN] [10X] 10X - an innovative gambling and trading game based on the Ethereum

[eranl]

I have few questions regarding the 10X game and contract:

1. You are saying that when a player looses and gets 10x tokens at 0.1 ETH rate, it is like an exchange order for buying 10x in 0.1 ETH price.
But this is not true, the contract is paying the tokens from the contract token supply and it has nothing to do with external exchange trading. I don't see how this affect trading prices (and really cannot see how your claim that if i place a sell order for 0.1ETH price in the exchange, when i lose the game i might buy my own sell order)

2. There is the case of the game mode is on and then the ETH supply is running out so the mode is switched back to ICO. When this happens players that are currently active may send bets without knowing that they are not betting but actually contributing more funds to the contract.  How do you prevent this from happening ?

3. Same question as 2 but the other way around - when ICO mode is switched to game mode, there might be contributors that still send ethers to the ICO but instead they will play the game without knowing - again how do you prevent this from happening ?

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[TheWolf666]

I have few questions regarding the 10X game and contract:

1. You are saying that when a player looses and gets 10x tokens at 0.1 ETH rate, it is like an exchange order for buying 10x in 0.1 ETH price.
But this is not true, the contract is paying the tokens from the contract token supply and it has nothing to do with external exchange trading. I don't see how this affect trading prices (and really cannot see how your claim that if i place a sell order for 0.1ETH price in the exchange, when i lose the game i might buy my own sell order)

2. There is the case of the game mode is on and then the ETH supply is running out so the mode is switched back to ICO. When this happens players that are currently active may send bets without knowing that they are not betting but actually contributing more funds to the contract.  How do you prevent this from happening ?

3. Same question as 2 but the other way around - when ICO mode is switched to game mode, there might be contributors that still send ethers to the ICO but instead they will play the game without knowing - again how do you prevent this from happening ?

Your Answers.

1. you are right, the bet is not placed in the trading platform so the relation between the purchase and the sale is not as linked as I described it, I will fix that, my mistake, glad that someone read this . But the fact that tokens are changing hands at 0.1 ether will show up in the buy wall in every exchanges, and will have an influence over the global value of the token per ether, if I am not mistaken. For example if you issue 1000 10X tokens at 0.1 eth per token (and none 10X token are minted of course) this should drive the price of the 10X up considerably, compare with a normal token which has no other traction than the buy/sales of the traders.

2. when we switch in crowdfunding (ICO is not really the word since it can happen anytime), in any case, the state of the game is displayed on the website (not yet, but it will of course). It is very important to place any bet from the website so that the player knows what is happening. The website also display the maximum bet possible which is 1/100 of the bank reserve. The second solution is that we are in manual mode and then we let the game going on at with whatever ETH are in the bank. In that case we might be in a situation that players cannot play more than 0.1 ETH (with 10 ETH in the bank).  All bets above that will be rejected.
If someone send ethers to the contract address blindly, he might get random results depending of the state of the contract. I have no idea how we could possibly warn the player apart from social medias, and our website.

3. same problem, if the player send money without checking our website first, he might be in the situation that you describe. I do not see how I can prevent that. It is a game that needs to be played from the game interface.
For example we can do a special event, where we sell for 1 day 5000 x 10X for 1 ether. Or we can do another event where we sell 500,000 10X max, with 10,000 per 10X, who knows, then of course the player always has to check what are the rules of the game at the time he sent his ethers to the game.

I can refund people in case of error, it is a pita to do, specially if there are many refund to do, but the player responsibility is to check the status of the token before sending anything since this token is a little bit more advanced and can morph into different modes.

[TheWolf666]

Hi,
I have reviewed your contract and it seems fine except for one potential issue - the function addEth() is not onlyOwner - is this done intentionally ?

Well that's a good catch, and I am not sure about that.

Code:

 function addEth() payable external { 

I can do it owned, sure it is probably more consistent and logical, but if someone else decide to send 1000 ether without being the owner, it is not really a liability   welcome!
I will fix that, someone could make a mistake and I have to refund him after, let's avoid this.

I will update the current contract with this change and the new feature: auto pilot on/off (version 1.46). I have decided to run the contract after the ICO at whatever we have in ETH, if it is 10000 great, we will have the first game where people can bet 100 ether and win 1000 (! lucky !)
But if we have 10 (I have enough to fund the bank myself lol) I will run the game with that - which will limit the maximum bet to 0.1. Of course the more ETH we get, the more we can also pay advertising on facebook and the hyper expensive crypto websites - 5 Eth / months for a banner on some websites that I will not tell the name). The more players the bigger the community is, and after a while we will be an army of evangelists to attract people to play.

At the end of the game, if we reach this goal, 2000 ICO 10X tokens will have been transformed into 200 ether: thanks Ethereum and solidity.

[killer520]

So apperently we will not even have a choice to invest at all since the dev is selling out:
Big money is basically stealing all the profits.

"Some  news coming in soon.
1) capital investors may join the team, in consequence we might no do any ICO since the project will be funded. The game will start.
2) very big name in the video game industry join the project... someone who was the CEO of one of the biggest company in Europe.(gewijzigd)
Press release will follow once all the paperworks are signed."

So far for an innovative new project.  

Next time you try to launch a project make sure to not disappoint people
anymore by promising things and then retracting your statements.

Either way, I do not wish to buy in at the top of a pyramid scheme.
And there would be no point for anybody else either to.
And I'll make sure to tell anybody I know not to play it either.

Good luck.

-- Update --

Site officially down and ICO disbanded. "http://10x.bz/" is now down.

Dev confirmed for scammer.

[TheWolf666]

So apperently we will not even have a choice to invest at all since the dev is selling out:

"Some  news coming in soon.
1) capital investors may join the team, in consequence we might no do any ICO since the project will be funded. The game will start.
2) very big name in the video game industry join the project... someone who was the CEO of one of the biggest company in Europe.(gewijzigd)
Press release will follow once all the paperworks are signed."

So far for an innovative new project.  

Next time you try to launch a project make sure to not disappoint people
anymore by promising things and then retracting your statements.

Either way, I do not wish to buy in at the top of a pyramid scheme.
And there would be no point for anybody else either to.

Good luck

The deal with the capital investors has been cancelled. It would have changed the project too much. I probably miss a LOT of money, but here is the details of the story:

In June I spent about 1 month dealing with capital investors, doing white paper after white papers, I decided to dump all of them nicely to do everything myself, because time is money.

This month same story. I could have raised a lot outside the ICO BUT, they asked to wait November.
We would have made a video in an office with 'peoples', add brand names to the projects in exchange of a lot of tokens, have a 40 pages audit with a lot of capital investors delicacy, the website redesigned professionally, you know the whole thing.

After reflexion, I decided to impose the ICO date, and I told them that we can do something later (due to the flexibility of the contract, many things are possible) but I will do this ICO regardless.
This had left them flabbergasted and they finally decided to talk later because they are in the investor trip, they have a lot of relations in the press, tv etc.. but in August everyone is in holiday. Ok let's talk in September then  

The bad thing is that this project has been initially conceived together with someone who is very famous in the video game industry for having been the CEO of one of the biggest company in Europe (was valuated +350 M Euro at the time), and I would have loved put both our faces on this project, but for a lot of reasons that I cannot explain here - and that are personal - he refuses to show his name publically. So we will continue with TheWolf, and well the investors are not really happy about that  

To conclude, the ICO will happen and the game will exist without institutional investors. We have saved several millions of 10X tokens in the process that would have been issued for them which is a good thing

[TheWolf666]

About the problem with the website, it is just something to do with our ISP. Do not rush too quick to conclusions.
Just be patient and the website will come back.

 

[killer520]

Then please refrain from posting confusing stuff in your discord. Either way there is one thing I do not understand in the entire concept. When people loose will they buy Tokens on the exchange at a price of 0.1ETH or will new tokens be minted at a price of 0.1ETH. If they are minted at such at that price there is no reason for people to buy it really. Since people will dump immediately for gainz. What point would holding do good? Not a lot of people would be holding since just having the tokens would not really do anything and more tokens will be created over time.

Now if people where to buy the tokens at the exchanges for 0.1ETH a piece...

And filling all the sell orders this would make more sense to me.

I apologize for my rash behavior but do try to post consistent news.

The rest of the project seems very solid to me, I just do not see how minting tokens at 0.1ETH a piece would drive up the price.

[TheWolf666]

Then please refrain from posting confusing stuff in your discord. Either way there is one thing I do not understand in the entire concept. When people loose will they buy Tokens on the exchange at a price of 0.1ETH or will new tokens be minted at a price of 0.1ETH. If they are minted at such at that price there is no reason for people to buy it really. Since people will dump immediately for gainz. What point would holding do good? Not a lot of people would be holding since just having the tokens would not really do anything and more tokens will be created over time.

Now if people where to buy the tokens at the exchanges for 0.1ETH a piece...

And filling all the sell orders this would make more sense to me.

I apologize for my rash behavior but do try to post consistent news.

The rest of the project seems very solid to me, I just do not see how minting tokens at 0.1ETH a piece would drive up the price.

>Then please refrain from posting confusing stuff in your discord.
I apologize for that, I just keep people tuned about what is happening behind the scene, and I agree sometime it is confusing even for me.

> minted or not.
These tokens are not minted. 20,000,000 tokens are created at the contract creation and owned by the contract.
A maximum of 10,000,000 will be sold at the ICO. What is left stay in the contract and are used to be delivered when the player lose his bet.
Because we deliver 10 time the bet, the price of the token that the player actually paid is 0.1 ether / 10X tokens.

Nobody will pay 0.1 ether per 10X, but the player does, without having the choice, it is just a rule of the game. In another game he would have nothing.
Now his token can be sold in the exchange at the current price of the 10x. If he is not into trading, he will probably keep these tokens and do nothing with them.
But the number of token in circulation has not changed, some tokens have been purchased at xxxx% more than the current trading price, and there is a new token holder who own these tokens and has a good chance to be a pure newbie.

I don't know how this will show up in the exchange, but because tokens change hands at 0.1 ether, and no tokens were minted, it should show up as a buy at 0.1 ether in the buy wall.
I am really curious to see what will be the comments of the traders about that. When they will realize what is happening, it will be very interesting.

In my opinion this system should drive the price of the token up considerably.

If you see something wrong in the business model, I am interested to debate about it.

[DylanJones]

10X by a newbie?

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of of folks have been lurking here for a long time.

[TheWolf666]

10X by a newbie?

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of of folks have been lurking here for a long time.

I am a newbie at bitcointalk, true. I am not into talking in forums, I like the shadows.
This forum is great, I regret to not have subscribed before.

[killer520]

Then please refrain from posting confusing stuff in your discord. Either way there is one thing I do not understand in the entire concept. When people loose will they buy Tokens on the exchange at a price of 0.1ETH or will new tokens be minted at a price of 0.1ETH. If they are minted at such at that price there is no reason for people to buy it really. Since people will dump immediately for gainz. What point would holding do good? Not a lot of people would be holding since just having the tokens would not really do anything and more tokens will be created over time.

Now if people where to buy the tokens at the exchanges for 0.1ETH a piece...

And filling all the sell orders this would make more sense to me.

I apologize for my rash behavior but do try to post consistent news.

The rest of the project seems very solid to me, I just do not see how minting tokens at 0.1ETH a piece would drive up the price.

>Then please refrain from posting confusing stuff in your discord.
I apologize for that, I just keep people tuned about what is happening behind the scene, and I agree sometime it is confusing even for me.

> minted or not.
These tokens are not minted. 20,000,000 tokens are created at the contract creation and owned by the contract.
A maximum of 10,000,000 will be sold at the ICO. What is left stay in the contract and are used to be delivered when the player lose his bet.
Because we deliver 10 time the bet, the price of the token that the player actually paid is 0.1 ether / 10X tokens.

Nobody will pay 0.1 ether per 10X, but the player does, without having the choice, it is just a rule of the game. In another game he would have nothing.
Now his token can be sold in the exchange at the current price of the 10x. If he is not into trading, he will probably keep these tokens and do nothing with them.
But the number of token in circulation has not changed, some tokens have been purchased at xxxx% more than the current trading price, and there is a new token holder who own these tokens and has a good chance to be a pure newbie.

I don't know how this will show up in the exchange, but because tokens change hands at 0.1 ether, and no tokens were minted, it should show up as a buy at 0.1 ether in the buy wall.
I am really curious to see what will be the comments of the traders about that. When they will realize what is happening, it will be very interesting.

In my opinion this system should drive the price of the token up considerably.

If you see something wrong in the business model, I am interested to debate about it.

Well yes, if the player where to buy these tokens from other people on exchanges at 0.1ETH a piece it all makes sense.

But if you just hand over these tokens through a contract (the additional 10,000,000) nobody could sell anything. There are just more tokens now and nobody has managed to sell his tokens.

In this fashion it would even make more sense if you put no number on what people bought the tokens at. They buy the tokens at the lowest price that is asked on all the exchanges. Once they bought up that they will proceed to buy at the next lowest price, ... Since people are greedy by nature they will keep undercutting each other anyway. So you will not have people who are selling it for 999ETH a piece. Becausse somebody would be happy selling it at 998ETH a piece, ... The lowest price that people are willing to sell it is at the price they bought . They people who bought will not get 10 tokens but they will get the tokens they could afford at such a price. It's an infinite pyramid scheme this way. Quite brilliant I would say. It would only fall apart if no more people where playing.

Meanwhile the house makes profits by holding it's 10X tokens and slowly selling them off over a certain period. (Not all at once since that would ruin the concept)

[ardentvolcanoes]

10X by a newbie?

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of of folks have been lurking here for a long time.

I am a newbie at bitcointalk, true. I am not into talking in forums, I like the shadows.
This forum is great, I regret to not have subscribed before.

well its not late yet just make sure to be precise with your answer and be honest about this project even you are a newbie but if you got something to
offer I think that's already a good basis to support you just keep updating the community maybe there's already some big investors which reading and
assessing this project, good luck to you dev.

[TheWolf666]

Then please refrain from posting confusing stuff in your discord. Either way there is one thing I do not understand in the entire concept. When people loose will they buy Tokens on the exchange at a price of 0.1ETH or will new tokens be minted at a price of 0.1ETH. If they are minted at such at that price there is no reason for people to buy it really. Since people will dump immediately for gainz. What point would holding do good? Not a lot of people would be holding since just having the tokens would not really do anything and more tokens will be created over time.

Now if people where to buy the tokens at the exchanges for 0.1ETH a piece...

And filling all the sell orders this would make more sense to me.

I apologize for my rash behavior but do try to post consistent news.

The rest of the project seems very solid to me, I just do not see how minting tokens at 0.1ETH a piece would drive up the price.

>Then please refrain from posting confusing stuff in your discord.
I apologize for that, I just keep people tuned about what is happening behind the scene, and I agree sometime it is confusing even for me.

> minted or not.
These tokens are not minted. 20,000,000 tokens are created at the contract creation and owned by the contract.
A maximum of 10,000,000 will be sold at the ICO. What is left stay in the contract and are used to be delivered when the player lose his bet.
Because we deliver 10 time the bet, the price of the token that the player actually paid is 0.1 ether / 10X tokens.

Nobody will pay 0.1 ether per 10X, but the player does, without having the choice, it is just a rule of the game. In another game he would have nothing.
Now his token can be sold in the exchange at the current price of the 10x. If he is not into trading, he will probably keep these tokens and do nothing with them.
But the number of token in circulation has not changed, some tokens have been purchased at xxxx% more than the current trading price, and there is a new token holder who own these tokens and has a good chance to be a pure newbie.

I don't know how this will show up in the exchange, but because tokens change hands at 0.1 ether, and no tokens were minted, it should show up as a buy at 0.1 ether in the buy wall.
I am really curious to see what will be the comments of the traders about that. When they will realize what is happening, it will be very interesting.

In my opinion this system should drive the price of the token up considerably.

If you see something wrong in the business model, I am interested to debate about it.

Well yes, if the player where to buy these tokens from other people on exchanges at 0.1ETH a piece it all makes sense.

But if you just hand over these tokens through a contract (the additional 10,000,000) nobody could sell anything. There are just more tokens now and nobody has managed to sell his tokens.

In this fashion it would even make more sense if you put no number on what people bought the tokens at. They buy the tokens at the lowest price that is asked on all the exchanges. Once they bought up that they will proceed to buy at the next lowest price, ... Since people are greedy by nature they will keep undercutting each other anyway. So you will not have people who are selling it for 999ETH a piece. Becausse somebody would be happy selling it at 998ETH a piece, ... The lowest price that people are willing to sell it is at the price they bought . They people who bought will not get 10 tokens but they will get the tokens they could afford at such a price. It's an infinite pyramid scheme this way. Quite brilliant I would say. It would only fall apart if no more people where playing.

Meanwhile the house makes profits by holding it's 10X tokens and slowly selling them off over a certain period. (Not all at once since that would ruin the concept)

I think that the exchange take all the balances of the contract and calculates the value of the coin relatively to how many coins are owned and at what price.
That's why a purchase on one exchange shows up in another exchange.

So I think (but I am not sure) that a purchase done by the contract should be visible in all the exchanges since it is an operation done using the ERC20 protocol and that the balances have changed.
In that case the contract is a mini exchange, selling 10X tokens at 0.1 ether per 10X...


>They buy the tokens at the lowest price that is asked on all the exchanges.
This is not wanted technically. Well it would ask me to use Oraclize to get the current price of the token which would be a mess and open the token to possible problems in case of Oraclize is not working for example. I want to avoid using it so that the token is 100% managed by the the Ethereum blockchain.

>Meanwhile the house makes profits by holding it's 10X tokens and slowly selling them off over a certain period.
I do not want the token to manipulate the price to this extend, I think that giving a little advantage the way it does now is enough to drive the price up and motivate the traders to play with it.
The trading part of the game is that every time a player lose and inject this money in the coin value, someone will take advantage of it (because the price goes up for example).
Smart traders will make gains, others will not. Who is going to get these 0.1 ether / 10X in his pocket is another part of the game.

[eranl]

I have few questions regarding the 10X game and contract:

1. You are saying that when a player looses and gets 10x tokens at 0.1 ETH rate, it is like an exchange order for buying 10x in 0.1 ETH price.
But this is not true, the contract is paying the tokens from the contract token supply and it has nothing to do with external exchange trading. I don't see how this affect trading prices (and really cannot see how your claim that if i place a sell order for 0.1ETH price in the exchange, when i lose the game i might buy my own sell order)

2. There is the case of the game mode is on and then the ETH supply is running out so the mode is switched back to ICO. When this happens players that are currently active may send bets without knowing that they are not betting but actually contributing more funds to the contract.  How do you prevent this from happening ?

3. Same question as 2 but the other way around - when ICO mode is switched to game mode, there might be contributors that still send ethers to the ICO but instead they will play the game without knowing - again how do you prevent this from happening ?

Your Answers.

1. you are right, the bet is not placed in the trading platform so the relation between the purchase and the sale is not as linked as I described it, I will fix that, my mistake, glad that someone read this . But the fact that tokens are changing hands at 0.1 ether will show up in the buy wall in every exchanges, and will have an influence over the global value of the token per ether, if I am not mistaken. For example if you issue 1000 10X tokens at 0.1 eth per token (and none 10X token are minted of course) this should drive the price of the 10X up considerably, compare with a normal token which has no other traction than the buy/sales of the traders.

2. when we switch in crowdfunding (ICO is not really the word since it can happen anytime), in any case, the state of the game is displayed on the website (not yet, but it will of course). It is very important to place any bet from the website so that the player knows what is happening. The website also display the maximum bet possible which is 1/100 of the bank reserve. The second solution is that we are in manual mode and then we let the game going on at with whatever ETH are in the bank. In that case we might be in a situation that players cannot play more than 0.1 ETH (with 10 ETH in the bank).  All bets above that will be rejected.
If someone send ethers to the contract address blindly, he might get random results depending of the state of the contract. I have no idea how we could possibly warn the player apart from social medias, and our website.

3. same problem, if the player send money without checking our website first, he might be in the situation that you describe. I do not see how I can prevent that. It is a game that needs to be played from the game interface.
For example we can do a special event, where we sell for 1 day 5000 x 10X for 1 ether. Or we can do another event where we sell 500,000 10X max, with 10,000 per 10X, who knows, then of course the player always has to check what are the rules of the game at the time he sent his ethers to the game.

I can refund people in case of error, it is a pita to do, specially if there are many refund to do, but the player responsibility is to check the status of the token before sending anything since this token is a little bit more advanced and can morph into different modes.

Thanks for your answers
Regarding the 10x tokens I am doubt about its exchange value will be influenced by the game rate of 0.1 ETH per 1 10x - you need buyers to be willing to pay for these tokens but one of the disadvantages of your design is that the 10x token has no value or use case in the game itself. I really think that you need to add some option to use 10x tokens in the game itself to get some benefits. For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH (in the rate of the exchanges) or maybe offer users the option to double their win by paying some 10x tokens in addition to the bet

Regarding the mode switching and preventing the users from doing mistakes, even when using the game UI, there is still a probability of race condition. I think a more appropriate solution will be to separate the payable functions - one for each mode - and refuse the payment when the function is called when its corresponding mode is off. So the UI play and contribute buttons are actually calling different functions

[TheWolf666]

I have few questions regarding the 10X game and contract:

1. You are saying that when a player looses and gets 10x tokens at 0.1 ETH rate, it is like an exchange order for buying 10x in 0.1 ETH price.
But this is not true, the contract is paying the tokens from the contract token supply and it has nothing to do with external exchange trading. I don't see how this affect trading prices (and really cannot see how your claim that if i place a sell order for 0.1ETH price in the exchange, when i lose the game i might buy my own sell order)

2. There is the case of the game mode is on and then the ETH supply is running out so the mode is switched back to ICO. When this happens players that are currently active may send bets without knowing that they are not betting but actually contributing more funds to the contract.  How do you prevent this from happening ?

3. Same question as 2 but the other way around - when ICO mode is switched to game mode, there might be contributors that still send ethers to the ICO but instead they will play the game without knowing - again how do you prevent this from happening ?

Your Answers.

1. you are right, the bet is not placed in the trading platform so the relation between the purchase and the sale is not as linked as I described it, I will fix that, my mistake, glad that someone read this . But the fact that tokens are changing hands at 0.1 ether will show up in the buy wall in every exchanges, and will have an influence over the global value of the token per ether, if I am not mistaken. For example if you issue 1000 10X tokens at 0.1 eth per token (and none 10X token are minted of course) this should drive the price of the 10X up considerably, compare with a normal token which has no other traction than the buy/sales of the traders.

2. when we switch in crowdfunding (ICO is not really the word since it can happen anytime), in any case, the state of the game is displayed on the website (not yet, but it will of course). It is very important to place any bet from the website so that the player knows what is happening. The website also display the maximum bet possible which is 1/100 of the bank reserve. The second solution is that we are in manual mode and then we let the game going on at with whatever ETH are in the bank. In that case we might be in a situation that players cannot play more than 0.1 ETH (with 10 ETH in the bank).  All bets above that will be rejected.
If someone send ethers to the contract address blindly, he might get random results depending of the state of the contract. I have no idea how we could possibly warn the player apart from social medias, and our website.

3. same problem, if the player send money without checking our website first, he might be in the situation that you describe. I do not see how I can prevent that. It is a game that needs to be played from the game interface.
For example we can do a special event, where we sell for 1 day 5000 x 10X for 1 ether. Or we can do another event where we sell 500,000 10X max, with 10,000 per 10X, who knows, then of course the player always has to check what are the rules of the game at the time he sent his ethers to the game.

I can refund people in case of error, it is a pita to do, specially if there are many refund to do, but the player responsibility is to check the status of the token before sending anything since this token is a little bit more advanced and can morph into different modes.

Thanks for your answers
Regarding the 10x tokens I am doubt about its exchange value will be influenced by the game rate of 0.1 ETH per 1 10x - you need buyers to be willing to pay for these tokens but one of the disadvantages of your design is that the 10x token had no use in the game itself. I really think that you need to add some option to use 10x tokens in the game itself to get some benefits. For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH (in the rate of the exchanges) or maybe offer users the option to double their win by paying some 10x tokens in addition to the bet

Regarding the mode switching and preventing the users from doing mistakes, even when using the game UI, there is still a probability of race condition. I think a more appropriate solution will be to separate the payable functions - one for each mode and refuse the payment when the function is called when is corresponding mode is off. So the UI play and contribute buttons are actually calling different functions

>Regarding the 10x tokens I am doubt about its exchange value will be influenced by the game rate of 0.1 ETH per 1 10x - you need buyers to be willing to pay for these tokens but one of the disadvantages of your design is that the 10x token had no use in the game itself. I really think >that you need to add some option to use 10x tokens in the game itself to get some benefits. For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH (in the rate of the exchanges) or maybe offer users the option to double their win by paying some 10x tokens in addition >to the bet

I understand your point of view, since it is something that haven't been tested I agree that one can doubt about the relationship between the contract issuing tokens and its value on the market, I think that [https://www.cryptotraders.eu/what-is-the-erc20-ethereum-token-standard/](https://www.cryptotraders.eu/what-is-the-erc20-ethereum-token-standard/) is a good reading.
The standard ERC20 gives the possibility to check all the balances of a token and from that calculate the value of this token. Since the contract can add more address and new balances, these will be scanned by all the exchanges we will deal with, and if something change it will be reflected in their walls, and change the global value of the coin.
If it was not working like this, different exchanges would have different prices.
Even if no one trade this coin, every time the contract will have any activity it will be reflected in the exchanges as soon as it changes the balances inside the contract.

>Regarding the mode switching and preventing the users from doing mistakes, even when using the game UI, there is still a probability of race condition. I think a more appropriate solution will be to separate the payable functions - one for each mode and refuse the payment when the >function is called when is corresponding mode is off. So the UI play and contribute buttons are actually calling different functions

I cannot split the contract in 2 addresses (did I understand your question well?). The balances of the token owners must be attached to the contract itself. I cannot move the money of the shareholders elsewhere or it would disappear from their wallet, and I cannot duplicate it because the token is attached to the contract address. I have thought about this solution at the very beginning of the development of this project, but had quickly to forget it for the reasons I mention before.  Also think about this, if another contract on a different address could interfere with the 10X contract, and the source code is public, what could stop anyone to steal all the balances?
In the case of talk about 2 different contracts on the same address, then it seems that you suppose that the UI will generate the transfer with the press of a button, but this is not possible. The player needs to log into his wallet, we cannot do it for him. So he needs to send money the same way he would participate the an ICO.

>For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH
>
I thought about it too in the course of the development. Receiving payment in a token value is a complex task to do both for the player and for the contract. Sending 10X would add confusion to an already complicated lottery system. Also the contract is not interested in getting 10X back, it wants Ethers. The decision was taken to keep the lottery as simple as possible (bet 1 get 10 if you win) and use the exchange for dealing with the token.

[eranl]

I have few questions regarding the 10X game and contract:

1. You are saying that when a player looses and gets 10x tokens at 0.1 ETH rate, it is like an exchange order for buying 10x in 0.1 ETH price.
But this is not true, the contract is paying the tokens from the contract token supply and it has nothing to do with external exchange trading. I don't see how this affect trading prices (and really cannot see how your claim that if i place a sell order for 0.1ETH price in the exchange, when i lose the game i might buy my own sell order)

2. There is the case of the game mode is on and then the ETH supply is running out so the mode is switched back to ICO. When this happens players that are currently active may send bets without knowing that they are not betting but actually contributing more funds to the contract.  How do you prevent this from happening ?

3. Same question as 2 but the other way around - when ICO mode is switched to game mode, there might be contributors that still send ethers to the ICO but instead they will play the game without knowing - again how do you prevent this from happening ?

Your Answers.

1. you are right, the bet is not placed in the trading platform so the relation between the purchase and the sale is not as linked as I described it, I will fix that, my mistake, glad that someone read this . But the fact that tokens are changing hands at 0.1 ether will show up in the buy wall in every exchanges, and will have an influence over the global value of the token per ether, if I am not mistaken. For example if you issue 1000 10X tokens at 0.1 eth per token (and none 10X token are minted of course) this should drive the price of the 10X up considerably, compare with a normal token which has no other traction than the buy/sales of the traders.

2. when we switch in crowdfunding (ICO is not really the word since it can happen anytime), in any case, the state of the game is displayed on the website (not yet, but it will of course). It is very important to place any bet from the website so that the player knows what is happening. The website also display the maximum bet possible which is 1/100 of the bank reserve. The second solution is that we are in manual mode and then we let the game going on at with whatever ETH are in the bank. In that case we might be in a situation that players cannot play more than 0.1 ETH (with 10 ETH in the bank).  All bets above that will be rejected.
If someone send ethers to the contract address blindly, he might get random results depending of the state of the contract. I have no idea how we could possibly warn the player apart from social medias, and our website.

3. same problem, if the player send money without checking our website first, he might be in the situation that you describe. I do not see how I can prevent that. It is a game that needs to be played from the game interface.
For example we can do a special event, where we sell for 1 day 5000 x 10X for 1 ether. Or we can do another event where we sell 500,000 10X max, with 10,000 per 10X, who knows, then of course the player always has to check what are the rules of the game at the time he sent his ethers to the game.

I can refund people in case of error, it is a pita to do, specially if there are many refund to do, but the player responsibility is to check the status of the token before sending anything since this token is a little bit more advanced and can morph into different modes.

Thanks for your answers
Regarding the 10x tokens I am doubt about its exchange value will be influenced by the game rate of 0.1 ETH per 1 10x - you need buyers to be willing to pay for these tokens but one of the disadvantages of your design is that the 10x token had no use in the game itself. I really think that you need to add some option to use 10x tokens in the game itself to get some benefits. For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH (in the rate of the exchanges) or maybe offer users the option to double their win by paying some 10x tokens in addition to the bet

Regarding the mode switching and preventing the users from doing mistakes, even when using the game UI, there is still a probability of race condition. I think a more appropriate solution will be to separate the payable functions - one for each mode and refuse the payment when the function is called when is corresponding mode is off. So the UI play and contribute buttons are actually calling different functions

>Regarding the 10x tokens I am doubt about its exchange value will be influenced by the game rate of 0.1 ETH per 1 10x - you need buyers to be willing to pay for these tokens but one of the disadvantages of your design is that the 10x token had no use in the game itself. I really think >that you need to add some option to use 10x tokens in the game itself to get some benefits. For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH (in the rate of the exchanges) or maybe offer users the option to double their win by paying some 10x tokens in addition >to the bet

I understand your point of view, since it is something that haven't been tested I agree that one can doubt about the relationship between the contract issuing tokens and its value on the market, I think that [https://www.cryptotraders.eu/what-is-the-erc20-ethereum-token-standard/](https://www.cryptotraders.eu/what-is-the-erc20-ethereum-token-standard/) is a good reading.
The standard ERC20 gives the possibility to check all the balances of a token and from that calculate the value of this token. Since the contract can add more address and new balances, these will be scanned by all the exchanges we will deal with, and if something change it will be reflected in their walls, and change the global value of the coin.
If it was not working like this, different exchanges would have different prices.
Even if no one trade this coin, every time the contract will have any activity it will be reflected in the exchanges as soon as it changes the balances inside the contract.

>Regarding the mode switching and preventing the users from doing mistakes, even when using the game UI, there is still a probability of race condition. I think a more appropriate solution will be to separate the payable functions - one for each mode and refuse the payment when the >function is called when is corresponding mode is off. So the UI play and contribute buttons are actually calling different functions

I cannot split the contract in 2 addresses (did I understand your question well?). The balances of the token owners must be attached to the contract itself. I cannot move the money of the shareholders elsewhere or it would disappear from their wallet, and I cannot duplicate it because the token is attached to the contract address. I have thought about this solution at the very beginning of the development of this project, but had quickly to forget it for the reasons I mention before.  Also think about this, if another contract on a different address could interfere with the 10X contract, and the source code is public, what could stop anyone to steal all the balances?
In the case of talk about 2 different contracts on the same address, then it seems that you suppose that the UI will generate the transfer with the press of a button, but this is not possible. The player needs to log into his wallet, we cannot do it for him. So he needs to send money the same way he would participate the an ICO.

>For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH
>
I thought about it too in the course of the development. Receiving payment in a token value is a complex task to do both for the player and for the contract. Sending 10X would add confusion to an already complicated lottery system. Also the contract is not interested in getting 10X back, it wants Ethers. The decision was taken to keep the lottery as simple as possible (bet 1 get 10 if you win) and use the exchange for dealing with the token.

I meant two different payable functions not two different contracts. I am not sure it is possible since I am quite new to Solidity, but i do see that your code already have two different payable functions in addition to the fallback one (the addEth() and makeTokens()) so it seems to me like it is possible

As for the tokens, I will not participate in the ICO as I am still not convinced the tokens will gain too much value over time but I am curious to see what will happen. I still think that it would be much better model if the tokens were useful or at least required in order to play, but I see how it makes the contract much more complicated due to the need to deal with both ETH and tokens transactions in the same contract

[TheWolf666]

I have few questions regarding the 10X game and contract:

1. You are saying that when a player looses and gets 10x tokens at 0.1 ETH rate, it is like an exchange order for buying 10x in 0.1 ETH price.
But this is not true, the contract is paying the tokens from the contract token supply and it has nothing to do with external exchange trading. I don't see how this affect trading prices (and really cannot see how your claim that if i place a sell order for 0.1ETH price in the exchange, when i lose the game i might buy my own sell order)

2. There is the case of the game mode is on and then the ETH supply is running out so the mode is switched back to ICO. When this happens players that are currently active may send bets without knowing that they are not betting but actually contributing more funds to the contract.  How do you prevent this from happening ?

3. Same question as 2 but the other way around - when ICO mode is switched to game mode, there might be contributors that still send ethers to the ICO but instead they will play the game without knowing - again how do you prevent this from happening ?

Your Answers.

1. you are right, the bet is not placed in the trading platform so the relation between the purchase and the sale is not as linked as I described it, I will fix that, my mistake, glad that someone read this . But the fact that tokens are changing hands at 0.1 ether will show up in the buy wall in every exchanges, and will have an influence over the global value of the token per ether, if I am not mistaken. For example if you issue 1000 10X tokens at 0.1 eth per token (and none 10X token are minted of course) this should drive the price of the 10X up considerably, compare with a normal token which has no other traction than the buy/sales of the traders.

2. when we switch in crowdfunding (ICO is not really the word since it can happen anytime), in any case, the state of the game is displayed on the website (not yet, but it will of course). It is very important to place any bet from the website so that the player knows what is happening. The website also display the maximum bet possible which is 1/100 of the bank reserve. The second solution is that we are in manual mode and then we let the game going on at with whatever ETH are in the bank. In that case we might be in a situation that players cannot play more than 0.1 ETH (with 10 ETH in the bank).  All bets above that will be rejected.
If someone send ethers to the contract address blindly, he might get random results depending of the state of the contract. I have no idea how we could possibly warn the player apart from social medias, and our website.

3. same problem, if the player send money without checking our website first, he might be in the situation that you describe. I do not see how I can prevent that. It is a game that needs to be played from the game interface.
For example we can do a special event, where we sell for 1 day 5000 x 10X for 1 ether. Or we can do another event where we sell 500,000 10X max, with 10,000 per 10X, who knows, then of course the player always has to check what are the rules of the game at the time he sent his ethers to the game.

I can refund people in case of error, it is a pita to do, specially if there are many refund to do, but the player responsibility is to check the status of the token before sending anything since this token is a little bit more advanced and can morph into different modes.

Thanks for your answers
Regarding the 10x tokens I am doubt about its exchange value will be influenced by the game rate of 0.1 ETH per 1 10x - you need buyers to be willing to pay for these tokens but one of the disadvantages of your design is that the 10x token had no use in the game itself. I really think that you need to add some option to use 10x tokens in the game itself to get some benefits. For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH (in the rate of the exchanges) or maybe offer users the option to double their win by paying some 10x tokens in addition to the bet

Regarding the mode switching and preventing the users from doing mistakes, even when using the game UI, there is still a probability of race condition. I think a more appropriate solution will be to separate the payable functions - one for each mode and refuse the payment when the function is called when is corresponding mode is off. So the UI play and contribute buttons are actually calling different functions

>Regarding the 10x tokens I am doubt about its exchange value will be influenced by the game rate of 0.1 ETH per 1 10x - you need buyers to be willing to pay for these tokens but one of the disadvantages of your design is that the 10x token had no use in the game itself. I really think >that you need to add some option to use 10x tokens in the game itself to get some benefits. For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH (in the rate of the exchanges) or maybe offer users the option to double their win by paying some 10x tokens in addition >to the bet

I understand your point of view, since it is something that haven't been tested I agree that one can doubt about the relationship between the contract issuing tokens and its value on the market, I think that [https://www.cryptotraders.eu/what-is-the-erc20-ethereum-token-standard/](https://www.cryptotraders.eu/what-is-the-erc20-ethereum-token-standard/) is a good reading.
The standard ERC20 gives the possibility to check all the balances of a token and from that calculate the value of this token. Since the contract can add more address and new balances, these will be scanned by all the exchanges we will deal with, and if something change it will be reflected in their walls, and change the global value of the coin.
If it was not working like this, different exchanges would have different prices.
Even if no one trade this coin, every time the contract will have any activity it will be reflected in the exchanges as soon as it changes the balances inside the contract.

>Regarding the mode switching and preventing the users from doing mistakes, even when using the game UI, there is still a probability of race condition. I think a more appropriate solution will be to separate the payable functions - one for each mode and refuse the payment when the >function is called when is corresponding mode is off. So the UI play and contribute buttons are actually calling different functions

I cannot split the contract in 2 addresses (did I understand your question well?). The balances of the token owners must be attached to the contract itself. I cannot move the money of the shareholders elsewhere or it would disappear from their wallet, and I cannot duplicate it because the token is attached to the contract address. I have thought about this solution at the very beginning of the development of this project, but had quickly to forget it for the reasons I mention before.  Also think about this, if another contract on a different address could interfere with the 10X contract, and the source code is public, what could stop anyone to steal all the balances?
In the case of talk about 2 different contracts on the same address, then it seems that you suppose that the UI will generate the transfer with the press of a button, but this is not possible. The player needs to log into his wallet, we cannot do it for him. So he needs to send money the same way he would participate the an ICO.

>For example you can add the option to bet on 10x tokens instead of ETH
>
I thought about it too in the course of the development. Receiving payment in a token value is a complex task to do both for the player and for the contract. Sending 10X would add confusion to an already complicated lottery system. Also the contract is not interested in getting 10X back, it wants Ethers. The decision was taken to keep the lottery as simple as possible (bet 1 get 10 if you win) and use the exchange for dealing with the token.

I meant two different payable functions not two different contracts. I am not sure it is possible since I am quite new to Solidity, but i do see that your code already have two different payable functions in addition to the fallback one (the addEth() and makeTokens()) so it seems to me like it is possible

As for the tokens, I will not participate in the ICO as I am still not convinced the tokens will gain too much value over time but I am curious to see what will happen. I still think that it would be much better model if the tokens were useful or at least required in order to play, but I see how it makes the contract much more complicated due to the need to deal with both ETH and tokens transactions in the same contract

I hope that you will change your mind with time. Thanks for taking the time to review my project.

[TheWolf666]

There is a problem, after a long conversation with G_O in discord, and after thinking about eranl said, it seems that there is a technical problem to update the value of the token at the stock market.

I was supposing that the exchanges are reading the contract and scanning all the owners and how much they own. The ERC20 protocol being used to transfer, authorize, buy, sell.

But how the exchanges are interacting with the contract? and how they know the buy/sell orders from other exchanges? is there a protocol, an api that allows all the exchanges to share their buys?

[eranl]

One last thing I can suggest you is to promise to buy back tokens from users from time to time (according to your profits)
This does not require you to change the contract and it can definitely influence the token value. Maybe you need to mint less tokens in the first place and once the game tokens supply is over you buy more tokens from users from exchanges and move it to the contract
You will be the main first buyer that pushes the price up and when users will see it really happens they will gain more trust and start bidding for the tokens in the exchanges

Eran

[TheWolf666]

One last thing I can suggest you is to promise to buy back tokens from users from time to time (according to your profits)
This does not require you to change the contract and it can definitely influence the token value. Maybe you need to mint less tokens in the first place and once the game tokens supply is over you buy more tokens from users from exchanges and move it to the contract
You will be the main first buyer that pushes the price up and when users will see it really happens they will gain more trust and start bidding for the tokens in the exchanges

Eran

Yes exactly I came to the exact same solution. I will open an account at one exchange partner (have many to choose from) and this account will be used to sell the ETH that are above the threshold value needed to run the game at current market price.

For example I could keep 200 ether to insure that the bank cannot be insolvable and the game can run as designed with a maximum bet of 1 ETH
Then all ETH above this number will be placed at buys at market price within this partner exchange.
Traders will then wait that I dump these ETH and make gains.. I am a day trader, I will be in the line to collect these bonuses!

I could add a "bonus delivery warning" in a mailing list and on the website with a counter, so that people rush trading when this happen. It is even more fun that it was designed before!

  What do you think? I think it will do the trick right?

I might need to consider changing the game into a x5 instead of 10x so more ETH will be collected more easily. X5 from 10 chance is still very high compared with the very popular local lottery here that are giving about the same but with a draw that can be 1-100.