Recovery Phrase order

[Asteria478]

Hey guys.

Today i was going to update my ledger wallet nano to get the Bitcoin Cash support, but i realized that i somehow fucked up the order of the 24 recovery words.

Is there any tool which could try those words out / switch them until they are in the correct order? The words are 100% correct just the order is not correct....

[efeaydin]

If you have a list of the words but they are in wrong order, you can use brute forcing method to recover your phrase. I'm not sure if there is a tool to do it but you can hire a developer to create a brute forcer.

A developer will probably want $35-50 to do it.

[escrow.ms]

You can use seedrecover from this tool https://github.com/gurnec/btcrecover but I think it will be hard to find a right combination of 24 different words.

I would like to know where did you saved your words and can't you remember from where you have started as no hardware wallet shows seed in random order. If you wrote down your seed you must have done it one by one either vertically or horizontally,however it is possible that you might have misplaced 2-3 words but I doubt it is possible to misplace all words.

[Asteria478]

You can use seedrecover from this tool https://github.com/gurnec/btcrecover but I think it will be hard to find a right combination of 24 different words.

I would like to know where did you saved your words and can't you remember from where you have started as no hardware wallet shows seed in random order. If you wrote down your seed you must have done it one by one either vertically or horizontally,however it is possible that you might have misplaced 2-3 words but I doubt it is possible to misplace all words.

I found out that i did a mistake in the order and started to write it correctly down, but no idea at which point since its 3 years ago.

[DannyHamilton]

So, you have 24 words.

That means that you have 24 possibilities for the word in position number 1.

If you try each of those words in position number 1, that leaves 23 words to try in position number 2.

Try the first word, with each of the other 23 in the second position, then try the second word with each of the other 23 in the second position, then the third word with each of the other 23 in the second position and so on.

When you've done that, you'll have tried:24 X 23 = 552 different possibilities.

Each of those 552 possibilities will have 22 remaining words that you can try in the third position.

So that's:
552 X 22 = 12144 possible combinations of 3 out of the 24 words.
(Notice that's the same as 24 X 23 X 22 = 12144)

Then for each of those 12144 possibilities will have 21 remaining words that you can try in the third position

That's:
12144 X 21 = 255024 possible combinations of 4 out of the 24 words.
(Notice that's the same as 24 X 23 X 22  X 21= 255024)

Perhaps you can see now that as we continue, by the time you try all the 24 word combinations of 24 words, the pattern will repeat all the way to:
24 X 23 X 22 X 21 X 20 X 19 X 18 X 17 X 16 X 15 X 14 X 13 X 12 X 11 X 10 X 9 X 8 X 7 X 6 X 5 X 4 X 3 X 2 X 1 = ?
In maths that pattern is called a "factorial" and is represented as:
24!

If you do that multiplication, you'll find that the total number of combinations you'll have to try will be:
620448401733239439360000

That's about 6.2 X 10²³.

Lets assume that you have enough computing power to try 100 trillion combinations per second.

620448401733239439360000 combinations / 100000000000000 combinatins per second = 6204484017 seconds.

Since there are 60 seconds in a minute, that is:
6204484017 seconds / 60 seconds per minute = 103408066 minutes.

There are 60 minutes in an hour, so:
103408066 minutes / 60 minutes per hour = 1723467 hours.

There are 24 hours in a day...
1723467 hours / 24 hours per day = 71811 days.

There are about 365.25 days per year...
71811 days / 365.25 days per year = 196.6 years.

If you actually had the ability to try 100 trillion combinations per second, then it's going to take you nearly 200 years of trying non-stop 24 hours a day to try all the combinations.

If the number of attempts you can make per second is less, then obviously it's going to take you longer than that.


The only way you are going to be able to find the right combination in your lifetime is if you already have some of the words in the right order, or if you can remember what order some of the words belong in.  Knowing for certain the position of just 1 word reduces the effort required by a factor of 24.  Knowing for certain the position of just 2 words reduces the effort by a factor of 552.

Using our "100 trillion combinations per second" example, knowing for certain the position of 1 word reduces the time required to try all possibilities from 196.6 years to:
196.6 / 24 = 8.2 years.

Knowing for certain the position of 2 words reduces the time required to try all possibilities to:
196.6 / 552 = 0.36 years (about 4.3 months)

[Asteria478]

Im pretty sure i know some of the words since i remember that i wrote them down correctly due the fact i found out that the order was wrong.

The first 4 words should be 100% correct since i found it out at that time, but im not sure if that helps at all?

Is there any other wallet i can try to enter my recovery key? That ledger stick is oudated and not even supported on their website anymore / removed from the product list.

[escrow.ms]

Im pretty sure i know some of the words since i remember that i wrote them down correctly due the fact i found out that the order was wrong.

The first 4 words should be 100% correct since i found it out at that time, but im not sure if that helps at all?

Is there any other wallet i can try to enter my recovery key? That ledger stick is oudated and not even supported on their website anymore / removed from the product list.

Yes
ADVANCED PROCEDURE TO IMPORT YOUR LEDGER BACKUP IN ANOTHER BITCOIN WALLET
 
You can manually generate all keys on https://www.ledgerwallet.com/support/bip39-standalone.html
 
Remember to always enter your mnemonic in lowercase - typing it in uppercase would generate a different but valid seed.

More details:
http://support.ledgerwallet.com/knowledge_base/topics/how-to-restore-my-backup-without-a-ledger-wallet

[cr1776]

Im pretty sure i know some of the words since i remember that i wrote them down correctly due the fact i found out that the order was wrong.

The first 4 words should be 100% correct since i found it out at that time, but im not sure if that helps at all?

Is there any other wallet i can try to enter my recovery key? That ledger stick is oudated and not even supported on their website anymore / removed from the product list.

Knowing the first 4 words will help significantly.  If you look at Danny's message above (at the bottom where he sums up the math), you will see that even known 2 words helps, and 4 even more so.

[DannyHamilton]

Knowing the first 4 words will help significantly.  If you look at Danny's message above (at the bottom where he sums up the math), you will see that even known 2 words helps, and 4 even more so.

Unfortunately, it's unlikely that you'll be able to try "100 trillion combinations per second".  That number was chosen as an extreme example.

The more words you are absolutely certain about, the more likely it is that you'll be able to get access to enough computing power to find the proper order in a reasonable amount of time.

Note, that if there are positions that you don't know the exact word, but you know that it must be one of a set of a few words, that knowledge also reduces the effort needed.

It's important to be correct though.  If you *think* a certain word (or set of words) belongs in a certain position, and you are wrong, then you'll waste all your computing time and effort checking combinations that have no chance of succeeding.  Then when you've exhausted all those possibilities and still haven't found it, you'll have to start all over trying all the other possibilities.

[warningsigns]

I'm absolutely amazed and baffled when I read how 24 words can turn one misstep into a mathematical (and financial) nightmare. These computational complexities underscore the high level of security in bitcoin technology. It's mathematics and finance married and merged to perfection. While financial markets can be unpredictable, mathematics on the other hand is precise and unforgiving.

Beautiful but also scary explanation there, Danny. Thank you.

When setting up a bitcoin wallet, one should be 100% awake, sober and conscious.

[Asteria478]

Okay guys, im back in my wallet, at least i guess so lol.

I used a selfmade tool which swapped the words until i could continue the recovery, but now my balance on bitcoin | bitcoin cash is 0 and i got no transaction history.

So i tought i could check if its really my wallet when i send some bitcoins from it and use my security card from ledger, which is needed to send the transactions. So if i enter a random password it wont let me send any coins, if its the right one it will indeed send the coins, so i guess its really my old wallet?

I tested the stick on 2 PCs, both wont show any transaction history from the past, is there any way to recover it / to another wallet maybe if ledger is unable to detect my history?

[Maum]

Okay guys, im back in my wallet, at least i guess so lol.

I used a selfmade tool which swapped the words until i could continue the recovery, but now my balance on bitcoin | bitcoin cash is 0 and i got no transaction history.

So i tought i could check if its really my wallet when i send some bitcoins from it and use my security card from ledger, which is needed to send the transactions. So if i enter a random password it wont let me send any coins, if its the right one it will indeed send the coins, so i guess its really my old wallet?

I tested the stick on 2 PCs, both wont show any transaction history from the past, is there any way to recover it / to another wallet maybe if ledger is unable to detect my history?

I guess, you didn't recover successfully, because you don't see any history. So you wan't be able to detect your history on another wallet. There is no other possibility, you must get your correct 24 word seed.

[Asteria478]

Okay guys, im back in my wallet, at least i guess so lol.

I used a selfmade tool which swapped the words until i could continue the recovery, but now my balance on bitcoin | bitcoin cash is 0 and i got no transaction history.

So i tought i could check if its really my wallet when i send some bitcoins from it and use my security card from ledger, which is needed to send the transactions. So if i enter a random password it wont let me send any coins, if its the right one it will indeed send the coins, so i guess its really my old wallet?

I tested the stick on 2 PCs, both wont show any transaction history from the past, is there any way to recover it / to another wallet maybe if ledger is unable to detect my history?

I guess, you didn't recover successfully, because you don't see any history. So you wan't be able to detect your history on abother wallet. There is no other possibility, you must get your correct 24 word seed.

I doubt that, the recovery phrase from my orignal one is like 2 words are changed, someone else must have over 90% of the same words then as i do in the same order.

//

Is there any way to verify that my old addresses which i still know are linked to that pass phrase / wallet at all?

[HCP]

I doubt that, the recovery phrase from my orignal one is like 2 words are changed, someone else must have over 90% of the same words then as i do in the same order.
//
Is there any way to verify that my old addresses which i still know are linked to that pass phrase / wallet at all?

If you are getting 0 balance and history... then you have simply created a different valid seed by using your 24 words in a different order. Not all combinations of your words will generate a valid seed, but it is indeed possible that different combinations will generate a valid wallet.

As an example, both of these seeds use the exact same 12 words... but in a different order and are valid BIP39 seeds:

auction squirrel behind veteran series pass major donor melody orient speak animal
speak pass auction behind series major squirrel donor veteran animal melody orient