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Author Topic: Ripple explained for Bitcoiners!  (Read 17706 times)
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AceCoin
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May 31, 2013, 10:25:41 AM
 #101

OpenCoin company expects making profits by manipulating XRP prices in future, when Ripple trading becomes common and widely adopted.

Am I correct ?


we cannot foresee that this will happen for sure, but that's the risk.
Sukrim
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May 31, 2013, 11:57:14 AM
 #102

[...] IOUs issued by pre-approved vendors named "Gateways".[...]

Well, anyone can issue IOUs on Ripple who has a handful of XRP, there is no real centralized or decentralized "approval" process. Other than that you gave a fairly correct overview on how Ripple operates or will/might operate.

https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.
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bytemaster
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July 16, 2013, 01:59:33 AM
 #103

I have a question about the operation of Ripple for the purpose of cross-chain-trading.

Suppose I have BTC in my wallet and want to send it to someone 'conditionally' on them sending me Bitstamp.BTC  without having to trust any other party other than BitStamp once the transaction is complete.

I don't want to go first because I don't trust them.  They don't want to go first because they don't trust me. 

So I want to implement atomic cross-chain trading with Ripple.    Is this possible and what would be involved?

https://fractally.com - the next generation of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
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July 23, 2013, 10:43:06 PM
 #104

Ripple doesn't know anything about the bitcoin block chain and transactions therein.

This means, you will always have to use a gateway or service of some sorts, as there is no way in Ripple or Bitcoin to create a transaction that relies on a certain external event without trusting an oracle to track this event or using a conversion service.

If I understand you correctly, you have e.g. 1 BTC in a Bitcoin address that you control and 0 BTC (just some XRP) in your Ripple account. You want to end up with 1 BTC.Bitstamp in your Ripple account and 0 BTC in your Bitcoin address. You do however trust Bitstamp that they are honest people and if you send them your 1 BTC IOU, they will then send 1 BTC on the Bitcoin network to an address of your choosing. Also, if you send them 1 BTC, they would credit you 1 BTC.Bitstamp.

In this case (you trust Bitstamp + have 1 BTC) you don't need a third party, all you need to do is to deposit your BTC in the Bitcoin network to Bitstamp and withdraw it from there to your Ripple account. And if you don't trust Bitstamp anyways, why would you use their IOUs?

In the more abstract case (e.g. you want Bitstamp USD and Bitstamp does not offer any Bitcoin trading/deposits at all) you would need at least oracles that track the Ripple ledger/Bitcoin block chain + probably also something along the lines of the NashX idea where you risk more by being fraudulent than staying honest. I'd still recommend in this case to find a gateway you trust, get some BTC IOUs from them and trade them for whatever other IOU you want to have. You counterparty can facilitate this by offering a direct path to the IOU of your choice, in case there is none or only bad ones so far.

Trading Cross-Chain doesn't even really work with Altcoins so far, and these are not even IOUs (IOUs make it actually easier to trade, as you can see above) and based on Bitcoin code. I'm not sure if atomic trading between chains/currencies and even for IOUs is very desirable, it seems so simple at the first glance but as soon as you think about race conditions, you run into a lot of things that can go wrong and that seem to be very hard to solve just algorithmically.

Maybe try OpenTransactions and building a way in there to represent not only (colored) Bitcoins but also Ripple IOUs, then it might work that both partners create OT blinded tokens and exchange + redeem them atomically.

https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.
https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.
bytemaster
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July 24, 2013, 12:00:10 AM
 #105

Ripple doesn't know anything about the bitcoin block chain and transactions therein.

This means, you will always have to use a gateway or service of some sorts, as there is no way in Ripple or Bitcoin to create a transaction that relies on a certain external event without trusting an oracle to track this event or using a conversion service.

If I understand you correctly, you have e.g. 1 BTC in a Bitcoin address that you control and 0 BTC (just some XRP) in your Ripple account. You want to end up with 1 BTC.Bitstamp in your Ripple account and 0 BTC in your Bitcoin address. You do however trust Bitstamp that they are honest people and if you send them your 1 BTC IOU, they will then send 1 BTC on the Bitcoin network to an address of your choosing. Also, if you send them 1 BTC, they would credit you 1 BTC.Bitstamp.

In this case (you trust Bitstamp + have 1 BTC) you don't need a third party, all you need to do is to deposit your BTC in the Bitcoin network to Bitstamp and withdraw it from there to your Ripple account. And if you don't trust Bitstamp anyways, why would you use their IOUs?

In the more abstract case (e.g. you want Bitstamp USD and Bitstamp does not offer any Bitcoin trading/deposits at all) you would need at least oracles that track the Ripple ledger/Bitcoin block chain + probably also something along the lines of the NashX idea where you risk more by being fraudulent than staying honest. I'd still recommend in this case to find a gateway you trust, get some BTC IOUs from them and trade them for whatever other IOU you want to have. You counterparty can facilitate this by offering a direct path to the IOU of your choice, in case there is none or only bad ones so far.

Trading Cross-Chain doesn't even really work with Altcoins so far, and these are not even IOUs (IOUs make it actually easier to trade, as you can see above) and based on Bitcoin code. I'm not sure if atomic trading between chains/currencies and even for IOUs is very desirable, it seems so simple at the first glance but as soon as you think about race conditions, you run into a lot of things that can go wrong and that seem to be very hard to solve just algorithmically.

Maybe try OpenTransactions and building a way in there to represent not only (colored) Bitcoins but also Ripple IOUs, then it might work that both partners create OT blinded tokens and exchange + redeem them atomically.

To get straight to the point:  does Ripple support anything like multi-sig or conditional transfers?

https://fractally.com - the next generation of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
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July 25, 2013, 12:53:46 PM
Last edit: July 26, 2013, 09:10:43 PM by Sukrim
 #106

https://ripple.com/wiki/Transactions, especially https://ripple.com/wiki/Transactions#Sign_.289.29 - MultiSig seems to be at least planned/in the works.

Conditional transfers might be more difficult, but can be emulated with Multisig I guess (e.g. require signatures from 9/10 public oracles + your signature, 11 in total, as soon as 10 of these sign, your condition is met).

Edit: you might want to look into https://ripple.com/wiki/Contracts... not sure how much of that stuff is already available/possible though.

https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.
https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.
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