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Author Topic: First coffe paid with offchain segwit tx using Twitter  (Read 409 times)
Ilsk
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August 24, 2017, 02:45:49 AM
 #1

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

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August 24, 2017, 04:31:29 AM
 #2

Moving off-chain transactions or increasing block size are two valid options to address. Getting a consensus on the concept of a better solution would be difficult enough.
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August 24, 2017, 04:45:38 AM
 #3

Moving off-chain transactions or increasing block size are two valid options to address. Getting a consensus on the concept of a better solution would be difficult enough.

You are right! Getting the consensus needed can be one of the most difficult thing to achieve in the Bitcoin community. We have seen it in the long-raging scaling debate and again we are seeing it now as we are heading to the scheduled November SegWit. The mess (or should I say dynamism) had affected Bitcoin's value in the past and can be affecting it now. Hopefully, by 2018 we can be free of this bickering.


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August 24, 2017, 05:15:06 AM
 #4

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

Well, that's a lot better than paying on the blockchain!  Right now the fee for a standard (within 6 blocks) transaction is ~5.44 USD (https://estimatefee.com/).  Who's going to purchase a cup of coffee with bitcoin at that rate?  It's getting ridiculous!  It's beginning to look like there may be a problem with the bitcoin protocol....something else surely needs to be considered here.
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August 24, 2017, 05:22:18 AM
 #5

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

I don`t understand this "commitment" thing those guys are talking about.What is this?
Two guys are sending each other a bunch of code.It isn`t very user-friendly, i think.
By the way,i don`t see the coffee purchased with this transaction delivered. Grin
Many people have concenrns about offchain transactions security and double spending issues.
Are offchain transactions secure enough?

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August 24, 2017, 05:40:25 AM
 #6

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

I don`t understand this "commitment" thing those guys are talking about.What is this?
Two guys are sending each other a bunch of code.It isn`t very user-friendly, i think.
By the way,i don`t see the coffee purchased with this transaction delivered. Grin
Many people have concenrns about offchain transactions security and double spending issues.
Are offchain transactions secure enough?


No....But it's better than not selling anything at all....or paying twice the price for a single cup of coffee.  The simple answer is that bitcoin is broken....it's not the platform we thought it could be.  The micro-payment markets have been gone for awhile now and the early adopter markets are going fast too lately.  Coffee shops were some of the first main stream markets that adopted bitcoin, but now it's not feasible to use bitcoin in the moderately priced market ranges either.
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August 24, 2017, 05:53:30 AM
 #7

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

Why have transactions off chain, when you can increase the blocksize and accommodate all transactions on chain? If it becomes too difficult to buy a cup of coffee, people might shift to Bitcoin cash or other alt coins.
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August 24, 2017, 06:06:32 AM
 #8

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

Why have transactions off chain, when you can increase the blocksize and accommodate all transactions on chain? If it becomes too difficult to buy a cup of coffee, people might shift to Bitcoin cash or other alt coins.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's already too expensive too use the bitcoin platform to purchase a cup of coffee....Using bitcoin for any transaction under 100 bucks is ridiculous when we can use a VISA card instead.  The fat bitcoin holders better be paying attention here ---> they keep throwing the majority of the network under the bus and they may regret it.
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August 24, 2017, 06:06:53 AM
 #9

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

I don`t understand this "commitment" thing those guys are talking about.What is this?
Two guys are sending each other a bunch of code.It isn`t very user-friendly, i think.
By the way,i don`t see the coffee purchased with this transaction delivered. Grin
Many people have concenrns about offchain transactions security and double spending issues.
Are offchain transactions secure enough?


No....But it's better than not selling anything at all....or paying twice the price for a single cup of coffee.  The simple answer is that bitcoin is broken....it's not the platform we thought it could be.  The micro-payment markets have been gone for awhile now and the early adopter markets are going fast too lately.  Coffee shops were some of the first main stream markets that adopted bitcoin, but now it's not feasible to use bitcoin in the moderately priced market ranges either.

Once SegWit & Lightning Network is working like it should, Bitcoin should perform as promised. The thing is, people tend to forget that Bitcoin has come under severe spam attacks and miner sabotage for years now. Under normal circumstances it would have functioned 100% and it would even handle limited micro transactions.

Sometimes it is just convenient to forget about these attacks and to blame Bitcoin for these high fees. We hope with SegWit activated, we would see less attacks, but miners can still move their hash power to BCC or another Alt coin to make these attacks more effective. ^grrrrrrrr^

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August 24, 2017, 10:59:18 AM
 #10

I don`t understand this "commitment" thing those guys are talking about.What is this?
Two guys are sending each other a bunch of code.It isn`t very user-friendly, i think.
By the way,i don`t see the coffee purchased with this transaction delivered. Grin
Many people have concenrns about offchain transactions security and double spending issues.
Are offchain transactions secure enough?


The commitments are in fact transactions that can be pushed on the blockchain in case the counterparty tries to scam you. So if you want to close tha payment channel but the other party disappears, you can broadcast the last commitment and both get the money according to the last state of the channel.
If one of the parties tries to broadcast a commitment transaction that represents an older state of the channel, using the hashes and the preimages you can block him and punish him for the scam attempt.

It is a different security model than Bitcoin since you have to be online to check you don't get scammed, or you have to delegate someone to monitor the blockchain for you (can be done without trust), but still it's a pretty solid security model since it is build on top of the blockchain.

Bitcoin is like a beautiful woman, difficult to understand but easy to love.
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August 24, 2017, 11:54:39 AM
 #11

Off-chain transactions have their big advantages, like being instant and having 0 fees. But, to be honest, they have always scared me away for security reasons.
And I really don't see the point in using btc to pay for a coffee
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August 24, 2017, 11:58:56 AM
 #12

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

Well, that's a lot better than paying on the blockchain!  Right now the fee for a standard (within 6 blocks) transaction is ~5.44 USD (https://estimatefee.com/).  Who's going to purchase a cup of coffee with bitcoin at that rate?  It's getting ridiculous!  It's beginning to look like there may be a problem with the bitcoin protocol....something else surely needs to be considered here.

Almost 2 cups of coffee again just for the transaction fee. Hell I would not use that too.
Why it is the damn coffee that is always use for experiments? Where are the lab rats?  Grin
Why not some valuable thing that is worth the pay. But truly, changes should be made on how much a fee should really be, specially when the transaction is just a low amount of satoshis.  Undecided

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neurotypical
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August 24, 2017, 12:02:51 PM
 #13

Moving off-chain transactions or increasing block size are two valid options to address. Getting a consensus on the concept of a better solution would be difficult enough.

The thing is, that on-chain transactions will never be viable for coffee type transactions. They were viable back then, because back then nobody was using bitcoin so you could even afford the risk of 0 confirmation transactions. This is a basic and easy to understand concept that big blockers like Roger Ver choose to not understand, so they keep parroting their propaganda.

There is no way to solve the puzzle. On-chain transactions are only viable for bigger transactions, unless you want to centralize the network.
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August 24, 2017, 12:03:59 PM
 #14

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

Well done Core devs, this is a huge step forward.
I have high hopes that soon enough this procedure becomes something used by everybody at a daily basis. Cheap and fast Bitcoin payments, wow.
And this will also help - hopefully - to decrease or at least avoid the tx spam we are facing for quite some time now.

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August 24, 2017, 12:07:54 PM
 #15

Here there is a cool experiment, using a Bitcoin bidirectional payment channel to do transactions off-chain and exchanging secrets and commitment transaction on Twitter.

Have a look at this thread: https://twitter.com/FedericoTenga/status/900541985790078976

Well, that's a lot better than paying on the blockchain!  Right now the fee for a standard (within 6 blocks) transaction is ~5.44 USD (https://estimatefee.com/).  Who's going to purchase a cup of coffee with bitcoin at that rate?  It's getting ridiculous!  It's beginning to look like there may be a problem with the bitcoin protocol....something else surely needs to be considered here.

Almost 2 cups of coffee again just for the transaction fee. Hell I would not use that too.
Why it is the damn coffee that is always use for experiments? Where are the lab rats?  Grin
Why not some valuable thing that is worth the pay. But truly, changes should be made on how much a fee should really be, specially when the transaction is just a low amount of satoshis.  Undecided
LOL because coffee is the elixir that gives the developers the power to code all night long and produce awesome inventions like the blockchain technology. 
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