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Author Topic: The True Explanation of Ripple for Bitcoiners  (Read 9918 times)
Blitz­
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May 21, 2013, 03:41:53 AM
 #1

This thread is in response to misterbigg's thread since he decided to delete my following message (why he did that, I don't think there is a purpose to ask) in his self-moderated thread:

"Stop deceiving Bitcoiners. In the Ripple system, Bitcoins can only be held as IOUs, they are subject to counterparty risk. Only Ripples are devoid from counterparty risk, while they also are needed to maintain an account balance and conduct transactions (fee). If the Ripple system becomes the main way to interact with Bitcoin, the market will inevitably begin valuing Ripples higher, as they share all the advantages of Bitcoin with none of the disadvantages. Bitcoin usage would shrink, since it has no purpose really.

Ripple does not complement Bitcoin. Ripple is more of a parasite that feeds off Bitcoin until it can stand on its own.

You have said it yourself in the past. Within Ripple, XRP is superior to BTC.

OpenCoin is trying to apply a spin of coexisting to bootstrap themselves, but make no mistake, their business model is to hold XRP (30% is what they promise) until they appreciate in value. Ripples are not meant as mere tokens, but in the same way as Bitcoin a scarce asset, only without proof of work and its disadvantages.

Stop the intellectual dishonesty and say it like it is.

XRP is a direct competitor to BTC."

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
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cypherdoc
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May 21, 2013, 03:46:59 AM
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he's busy deleting posts of mine as well.  he's a scumbag Ripple shill.
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May 21, 2013, 03:50:43 AM
 #3

i simply asked misterbigg why a bank or financial institution would voluntarily participate as a gateway in the Ripple system when they have the Fed as an enabler?  why would they submit to OpenCoin?

anything less than a bank as a gateway will be considered a money transmitter and have to comply with FinCen regs.
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May 21, 2013, 03:53:00 AM
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I think the PR work OpenCoin is doing is really good, because they are appealing to people's dislike of MtGox's status and naivities of "decentralized exchanges". The main narrative is "we are not here to threaten you, we only want to help Bitcoin". Meanwhile, they are holding on to at least 30% of all Ripples hoping to make money off them in the future, ie have them appreciate in value. It's clever, really.

The truth about the decentralized exchanges is that while Ripple performs a slick unified interface, the exchanges themselves are still just that, centralized market places, subject to theft, legal issues, etc.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
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May 21, 2013, 03:55:38 AM
 #5

i simply asked misterbigg why a bank or financial institution would voluntarily participate as a gateway in the Ripple system when they have the Fed as an enabler?  why would they submit to OpenCoin?

anything less than a bank as a gateway will be considered a money transmitter and have to comply with FinCen regs.

Then Opencoin will have to overhaul their system already, they issue only IOUs, which are legally not enforceable, I am sure people will flock to lend money that way....


Ripple doesn't look like it's created to meet some real needs, it looks like it's created to "look different from Bitcoin and look innovative".

Nothing great was ever achieved without irrational exuberance.
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May 21, 2013, 03:56:35 AM
 #6

I think the PR work OpenCoin is doing is really good, because they are appealing to people's dislike of MtGox's status and naivities of "decentralized exchanges". The main narrative is "we are not here to threaten you, we only want to help Bitcoin". It's clever, really.

The truth about the decentralized exchanges is that while Ripple performs a slick unified interface, the exchanges themselves are still just that, centralized market places, subject to theft, legal issues, etc.

The best part of their PR is they choose the correct audience: you can only find people who control significant amount of money and believe in bullcrap like that at the same time, among Bitcoiners.

Nothing great was ever achieved without irrational exuberance.
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May 21, 2013, 03:56:56 AM
 #7

Mr. Bigg deleted my rantional post in his moderated thread.

He doesnt like anyone who opposed or exposes what Ripple really is. If you disagree with his view you get deleted. Well at least I was...

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May 21, 2013, 03:57:01 AM
 #8

I think the PR work OpenCoin is doing is really good, because they are appealing to people's dislike of MtGox's status and naivities of "decentralized exchanges". The main narrative is "we are not here to threaten you, we only want to help Bitcoin". It's clever, really.

The truth about the decentralized exchanges is that while Ripple performs a slick unified interface, the exchanges themselves are still just that, centralized market places, subject to theft, legal issues, etc.

you're absolutely right about them trying to steal Bitcoiners.

that's why they're here on this forum and had a booth at conference.
misterbigg
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May 21, 2013, 03:57:49 AM
 #9

"Stop deceiving Bitcoiners.

I take umbrage to this - there's no deception going on. This is one reason I deleted your thread. There's no place for personal attacks in my moderated discussion.

Quote
In the Ripple system, Bitcoins can only be held as IOUs, they are subject to counterparty risk.

Yep, and this has been explained numerous times. Another reason why I deleted your post from my thread. There is no place for repeating the same things over and over again like TradeFortress, without engaging in any real discourse.

Quote
Only Ripples are devoid from counterparty risk, while they also are needed to maintain an account balance and conduct transactions (fee).

This is all true.

Quote
If the Ripple system becomes the main way to interact with Bitcoin, the market will inevitably begin valuing Ripples higher, as they share all the advantages of Bitcoin with none of the disadvantages. Bitcoin usage would shrink, since it has no purpose really.

I wouldn't be so sure. In theory, if all the stars line up and all the vendors get on board with Ripple instead of Bitcoin, and there are no gateway defaults, and the government doesn't come cracking down on gateways, etc... then maybe in some distant future Ripple could be a competitor to Bitcoin.

Does this mean that Ripple will "kill" Bitcoin? I hardly think so. Did Apple "kill" Microsoft? Did the Euro "kill" the dollar? Ripple uses a different model of achieving consensus than Bitcoin. I'm sure that the market will value Bitcoin and Ripple appropriately.

But lets pretend for a moment that Ripple is so amazing that it renders Bitcoin totally obsolete (far fetched, but not impossible). Why should we feel bad about this? Clearly it deserves to "win" since it offers superior functionality. Everyone benefits from this scenario.

Quote
Ripple is more of a parasite that feeds off Bitcoin until it can stand on its own.

And this is another reason why I deleted the thread, baseless accusations.

After Bitcoin fell 80% from $266 to $50 and MtGox was under DDoS, there were many cries in the forum for "decentralized exchanges" and getting rid of the "too big to fail exchange" MtGox. Ripple solves these problems and more, and now you're saying Ripple is a parasite? Far from being a parasite, Ripple will enhance the value of Bitcoin.

Ripple even enhances the value of what I consider to be the worthless alt-coins like Litecoin and what not.

Quote
You have said it yourself in the past. Within Ripple, XRP is superior to BTC.

Yeah, I did say that.

Quote
OpenCoin is trying to apply a spin of coexisting to bootstrap themselves

Another reason why I moderated your post. Another personal attack.

Quote
their business model is to hold XRP (30% is what they promise) until they appreciate in value. Ripples are not meant as mere tokens, but in the same way as Bitcoin a scarce asset, only without proof of work and its disadvantages.

This is all true.

Quote
Stop the intellectual dishonesty and say it like it is. XRP is a direct competitor to BTC.

And again a reason why I moderated your post. Yet another personal attack. And a baseless accusation, that XRP is a direct competitor.

Even if it is a competitor, shouldn't people be free to choose the currency they want? By your logic, all alt-coins are competitors and they are "intellectually dishonest" and they are a "parasite on Bitcoin." Do you really believe that? Ripple doesn't take part of Bitcoin's piece of the pie, it makes the pie bigger.

Now I certainly don't mind all of your personal attacks here. Children will be children, after all. But this is where it belongs - and not in my moderated thread which I am managing to keep high in signal and low in noise.

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May 21, 2013, 04:09:13 AM
 #10

Another deleted one. lol. He doesnt like me exposing what he says:




Is price manipulation so bad? They could hold a lot of XRP back and make it go up in value. This could make transactions and new accounts more expensive temporarily, but the validators will just vote to reduce the reserves and fees. So OpenCoin hoarding XRP does not affect users of the system very much.


Bolded above says a lot about said user.

Someone who doesn't think manipulation is so bad is because they are not on the losing end of the trade. Hence his comment.



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May 21, 2013, 04:11:22 AM
 #11

How is this possible? Where do you open a Ripple-enabled checking account?

Well, we hope that one day a bank will operate as a gateway. Hasn't happened yet.

Keep hoping.

lol you are so sold on something that hasn't become a reality and are so sure it will it baffles me lol.

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May 21, 2013, 04:11:38 AM
 #12

Quote
But lets pretend for a moment that Ripple is so amazing that it renders Bitcoin totally obsolete (far fetched, but not impossible). Why should we feel bad about this? Clearly it deserves to "win" since it offers superior functionality. Everyone benefits from this scenario.

I agree. What I have a problem with is that XRP are not marketed as an alternative but something of a byproduct. I suspect that this PR will change once the Ripple system is more widely used, and begin shifting to advertise XRP as a BTC alternative.

Quote
After Bitcoin fell 80% from $266 to $50 and MtGox was under DDoS, there were many cries in the forum for "decentralized exchanges" and getting rid of the "too big to fail exchange" MtGox. Ripple solves these problems and more, and now you're saying Ripple is a parasite? Far from being a parasite, Ripple will enhance the value of Bitcoin.

I don't know, we haven't seen the performance of the internal Ripple market place yet under stress. However, Ripple does not solve natural monopolies and its side effects. As more gateways emerge, we will simply have a new MtGox everyone goes to for the liquidity (which is currently bitstamp, as opposed to weex).

Quote
By your logic, all alt-coins are competitors and they are "intellectually dishonest" and they are a "parasite on Bitcoin."

I do believe they are parasites, but I do not believe they are intellectually dishonest because they market themselves as what they are: an alternative currency. OpenCoin is marketing XRP as nothing at all except a mechanism to prevent network spam by requiring XRP for accounts and transactions. Meanwhile, they plan to make profit with 30% of all Ripples because they know it would acquire value, and this it will probably do so from Bitcoin.

And this is my main problem with the "spin" and why I call it intellectually dishonest.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
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May 21, 2013, 04:12:04 AM
 #13

I think the PR work OpenCoin is doing is really good, because they are appealing to people's dislike of MtGox's status and naivities of "decentralized exchanges". The main narrative is "we are not here to threaten you, we only want to help Bitcoin". It's clever, really.

The truth about the decentralized exchanges is that while Ripple performs a slick unified interface, the exchanges themselves are still just that, centralized market places, subject to theft, legal issues, etc.

you're absolutely right about them trying to steal Bitcoiners.

that's why they're here on this forum and had a booth at conference.

+1 plain as day.

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May 21, 2013, 04:14:27 AM
 #14

Another deleted one. lol. He doesnt like me exposing what he says:




Is price thread manipulation so bad? They could hold a lot of XRP back and make it go up in value. This could make transactions and new accounts more expensive temporarily, but the validators will just vote to reduce the reserves and fees. So OpenCoin hoarding XRP does not affect users of the system very much.


Bolded above says a lot about said user.

Someone who doesn't think manipulation is so bad is because they are not on the losing end of the trade. Hence his comment.




my own color on the situation added.
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May 21, 2013, 04:15:25 AM
 #15

Another deleted one. lol. He doesnt like me exposing what he says:




Is price thread manipulation so bad? They could hold a lot of XRP back and make it go up in value. This could make transactions and new accounts more expensive temporarily, but the validators will just vote to reduce the reserves and fees. So OpenCoin hoarding XRP does not affect users of the system very much.


Bolded above says a lot about said user.

Someone who doesn't think manipulation is so bad is because they are not on the losing end of the trade. Hence his comment.




my own color on the situation added.

given he has deleted every post I've made in his thread...yup that too.


misterbigg
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May 21, 2013, 04:17:27 AM
 #16

I don't know, we haven't seen the performance of the internal Ripple market place yet under stress.

A fair point. It is still beta after all.

Quote
However, Ripple does not solve natural monopolies and its side effects. As more gateways emerge, we will simply have a new MtGox everyone goes to for the liquidity (which is currently bitstamp, as opposed to weex).

Well that's not quite right. There will always be a "most popular gateway", where popularity is measured by the amount of funds on deposit. But since anyone can be a "liquidity provider", competition will create the situation where it doesn't much matter which gateway you deposit your funds at, or which order books you use to get your bitcoins.

A future version of the reference client will show order books that are a composite of multiple issuers, so when you buy Bitcoins using your USD balance your order can be filled from multiple exchanges at the same time.

Ripple's pathfinding algorithm already looks through multiple books today, so when you send a payment it doesn't matter which gateway the receiver trusts - all order books will be evaluated to find the cheapest conversions.

Quote
OpenCoin is marketing XRP as nothing at all except a mechanism to prevent network spam by requiring XRP for accounts and transactions. Meanwhile, they plan to make profit with 30% of all Ripples because they know it would acquire value...this is my main problem with the "spin" and why I call it intellectually dishonest.

I think that's actually a fair point. For sure, Ripple could have been presented better. It's quite confusing as it is.

Perhaps you could contribute some improvements to the presentation and explanations?



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May 21, 2013, 04:20:24 AM
 #17

Another deleted one. lol. He doesnt like me exposing what he says:




Is price thread XRP manipulation so bad? They could hold a lot of XRP back and make it go up in value. This could make transactions and new accounts more expensive temporarily, but the validators will just vote to reduce the reserves and fees. So OpenCoin hoarding XRP does not affect users of the system very much.


Bolded above says a lot about said user.

Someone who doesn't think manipulation is so bad is because they are not on the losing end of the trade. Hence his comment.




my own color on the situation added.

given he has deleted every post I've made in his thread...yup that too.



might as well spell them all out.
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May 21, 2013, 04:21:01 AM
 #18

I get a really uneasy vibe from the overabundance of "It's ok bitcoiners, ripple is your frriiieeennnddd" posted all over their website and on this forum.

mBTC 18CANSXmA3ymSRwhPMarmhUQPepburGkWA
cypherdoc
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May 21, 2013, 04:21:02 AM
 #19

Another deleted one. lol. He doesnt like me exposing what he says:




Is price thread XRP manipulation so bad? They could hold a lot of XRP back and make it go up in value. This could make transactions and new accounts more expensive temporarily, but the validators will just vote to reduce the reserves and fees. So OpenCoin hoarding XRP does not affect users of the system very much.


Bolded above says a lot about said user.

Someone who doesn't think manipulation is so bad is because they are not on the losing end of the trade. Hence his comment.




my own color on the situation added.

given he has deleted every post I've made in his thread...yup that too.



might as well spell them all out.
misterbigg
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May 21, 2013, 04:21:57 AM
 #20

Why is it that Blitz can act like a civil human, but smoothie and cypherdoc act like asshats? Is this what happens when teenagers take to the forums?

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