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Author Topic: Is There A Good Reason To Still Be Calling BTC Money/Currency?  (Read 5801 times)
Bit_Happy
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June 22, 2011, 07:17:06 PM
 #1

For the moment, at least, bitcoin is recognized (legally) as more of a product or commodity....

"Product or commodity" gives BTC a much better chance of being legal in many countries, so why does our official site/wiki still call it money/currency?
Another option could be "trading units" or anything else related to barter.

Is There A Good Reason To Still Be Calling BTC Money/Currency?

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Jaime Frontero
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June 22, 2011, 07:21:49 PM
 #2

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade

^^ that.
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June 22, 2011, 07:24:49 PM
 #3


Right "trade" / "trading units" / Barter == Legal
Money/ Currency == Illegal.

My point exactly.

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June 22, 2011, 07:30:20 PM
 #4

Until it is widely accepted in lieu of national currencies, "virtual commodity" sounds best to me. It is, after all, limited (unlike USD evidently) and inherently deflationary (unlike USD, again). Plus a commodity avoids the aforementioned regulatory issues.
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June 22, 2011, 08:39:24 PM
 #5

It behaves as a commodity and I was inclined since the very beginning I learned about it to call it a commodity.

I agree with the OP, I'd rather we'd call it a commodity then a currency.

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June 22, 2011, 08:46:00 PM
 #6

It behaves as a commodity and I was inclined since the very beginning I learned about it to call it a commodity.

I agree with the OP, I'd rather we'd call it a commodity then a currency.

I've seen some of your other posts and respect your opinion, thanks for up-vote, hazek.

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June 22, 2011, 08:58:09 PM
 #7

It would be a commodity except for the fact that people use it to buy things.  If buying things with bitcoins were impossible, then I would agree that it was merely a commodity.  But it is trading like a currency on currency exchanges, and people are using it to buy things.  

What YOU call it is irrelevant anyhow.  It's what lawyers/judges/juries call it that ultimately matters.

Money is generally considered to be a currency which is backed by something -- such as gold, silver, etc.  I would never call a bitcoin 'money'.  But it is a currency, because it facilitates trade, and is not and 'end unto itself'.  People who want bitcoins want them for their ability to facilitate trade.  Not because they are nice to mount on the wall, on top the television, or anything like that.

If I go to you with a pig and ask to trade it for your chicken, we're engaged in barter.  It's barter because the items being traded are desired by each party as an end unto themselves.  They intend to eat the pig/chicken, or such.  Currencies, on the other hand, are an unconsumed facilitator of trading -- which is exactly what bitcoins do.


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June 22, 2011, 09:05:44 PM
 #8


Right "trade" / "trading units" / Barter == Legal
Money/ Currency == Illegal.

My point exactly.

Alternative currencies are not ilegal.
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June 22, 2011, 09:11:21 PM
 #9


Right "trade" / "trading units" / Barter == Legal
Money/ Currency == Illegal.

My point exactly.

Alternative currencies are not ilegal.

Maybe I'm wrong hugolp, but Gov has a monopoly on "legal tender/money." Surely you know the Liberty Dollar guy was convicted?
I would enjoy the experience of being taught otherwise*, thanks.

*I'm not being sarcastic, I don't always come up with the right words.

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June 22, 2011, 09:16:37 PM
 #10

Surely you know the Liberty Dollar guy was convicted?
I would enjoy the experience of being taught otherwise*, thanks.

It's my understanding Liberty Dollars got raided because the owner printed currency, and then encouraged people to pass it off as USD. Unless some idiot makes a BTC greenback and passes it off to unsuspecting people, BTC is not likely to catch this type of attention.

^_^
hazek
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June 22, 2011, 09:17:10 PM
 #11

Well let's look at what the dictionaries say(top 3 google results for "currency dictionary"):

(I will underline what I think describes Bitcoins)

cur·ren·cy 
[kur-uhn-see, kuhr-]  Show IPA
–noun, plural -cies.
1. something that is used as a medium of exchange; money.
2. general acceptance; prevalence; vogue.
3. a time or period during which something is widely accepted and circulated.

com·mod·i·ty   
[kuh-mod-i-tee]  Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
1. an article of trade or commerce, especially a product as distinguished from a service.
2. something of use, advantage, or value.
3. Stock Exchange . any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals.

mon·ey 
[muhn-ee]  Show IPA
noun, plural mon·eys, mon·ies, adjective
–noun
1. any circulating medium of exchange, including coins, paper money,  and demand deposits.
2. paper money.
3. gold, silver, or other metal in pieces of convenient form stamped by public authority and issued as a medium of exchange and measure of value.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

cur·ren·cy (kûrn-s, kr-)
n. pl. cur·ren·cies
1. Money in any form when in actual use as a medium of exchange, especially circulating paper money.
2. Transmission from person to person as a medium of exchange; circulation: coins now in currency.
3. General acceptance or use; prevalence: the currency of a slang term.
4. The state of being current; up-to-dateness: Can you check the currency of this address?

currency [ˈkʌrənsɪ]
n pl -cies
1. (Economics, Accounting & Finance / Currencies) a metal or paper medium of exchange that is in current use in a particular country
2. general acceptance or circulation; prevalence the currency of ideas
3. the period of time during which something is valid, accepted, or in force
4. the act of being passed from person to person
5. (Economics, Accounting & Finance / Currencies) Austral (formerly) the local medium of exchange, esp in the colonies, as distinct from sterling
6. (Social Science / Peoples) Austral slang (formerly) the native-born Australians, as distinct from the British immigrants
[from Medieval Latin currentia, literally: a flowing, from Latin currere to run, flow]

com·mod·i·ty  (k-md-t)
n. pl. com·mod·i·ties
1. Something useful that can be turned to commercial or other advantage: "Left-handed, power-hitting third basemen are a rare commodity in the big leagues" (Steve Guiremand).
2. An article of trade or commerce, especially an agricultural or mining product that can be processed and resold.
3. Advantage; benefit.
4. Obsolete A quantity of goods.

commodity [kəˈmɒdɪtɪ]
n pl -ties
1. (Economics) an article of commerce
2. something of use, advantage, or profit
3. (Economics) Economics an exchangeable unit of economic wealth, esp a primary product or raw material
4. Obsolete
a.  (Economics) a quantity of goods
b.  convenience or expediency
[from Old French commodité, from Latin commoditās suitability, benefit; see commodious]


mon·ey  (mn)
n. pl. mon·eys or mon·ies
1. A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
2. The official currency, coins, and negotiable paper notes issued by a government.
3. Assets and property considered in terms of monetary value; wealth.
4.
a. Pecuniary profit or loss: He made money on the sale of his properties.
b. One's salary; pay: It was a terrible job, but the money was good.
5. An amount of cash or credit: raised the money for the new playground.
6. Sums of money, especially of a specified nature. Often used in the plural: state tax moneys; monies set aside for research and development.
7. A wealthy person, family, or group: to come from old money; to marry into money.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/

cur·ren·cy noun \ˈkər-ən(t)-sē, ˈkə-rən(t)-\
plural cur·ren·cies
Definition of CURRENCY

1
a : circulation as a medium of exchange
b : general use, acceptance, or prevalence <a story gaining currency>
c : the quality or state of being current : currentness
2
a : something (as coins, treasury notes, and banknotes) that is in circulation as a medium of exchange
b : paper money in circulation
c : a common article for bartering
d : a medium of verbal or intellectual expression
 See currency defined for English-language learners »
See currency defined for kids »
Examples of CURRENCY

A new currency has been introduced in the foreign exchange market.
They were paid in U.S. currency.
Furs were once traded as currency.
The word has not yet won widespread currency.
I'm not sure about the accuracy and currency of their information.

com·mod·i·ty noun \kə-ˈmä-də-tē\
plural com·mod·i·ties
Definition of COMMODITY

1
: an economic good: as
a : a product of agriculture or mining
b : an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment <commodities futures>
c : a mass-produced unspecialized product <commodity chemicals> <commodity memory chips>
2
a : something useful or valued <that valuable commodity patience>; also : thing, entity
b : convenience, advantage
3
obsolete : quantity, lot
4
: a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (as brand name) other than price
5
: one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market <stars as individuals and as commodities of the film industry — Film Quarterly>
 See commodity defined for English-language learners »
See commodity defined for kids »
Examples of COMMODITY

agricultural commodities like grain and corn
Oil is a commodity in high demand.
Patience is a rare commodity
.

1mon·ey noun, often attributive \ˈmə-nē\
plural moneys or mon·ies
Definition of MONEY

1
: something generally accepted as a medium of exchange, a measure of value, or a means of payment: as
a : officially coined or stamped metal currency
b : money of account
c : paper money
2
a : wealth reckoned in terms of money
b : an amount of money
c plural : sums of money : funds
3
: a form or denomination of coin or paper money
4
a : the first, second, and third place winners (as in a horse or dog race) —usually used in the phrases in the money or out of the money
b : prize money <his horse took third money>
5
a : persons or interests possessing or controlling great wealth
b : a position of wealth <born into money>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/


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June 22, 2011, 09:17:15 PM
 #12

Maybe I'm wrong hugolp, but Gov has a monopoly on "legal tender/money." Surely you know the Liberty Dollar guy was convicted?
I would enjoy the experience of being taught otherwise*, thanks.

*I'm not being sarcastic, I don't always come up with the right words.

He was convicted on counterfeiting charges -- his coins were confusingly similar to legal tender coins.  I don't agree with the Jury's decision in his case, but he was playing a game by rearanging the "In God We Trust" into "Trust in God".  

Nobody said that bitcoins were legal tender money.  They are obviously not.  They're an electronic currency which can be converted into legal tender currencies.

Go to disneyland and you have a good chance of acquiring Disney Dollars.  Those are a type of currency that is not legal tender.  And go to an arcade where you get 8 game tokens for $1.  Those tokens are also a currency.



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hazek
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June 22, 2011, 09:17:32 PM
 #13

Conclusion: Both words can describe Bitcoins it's just that the they are being mostly used right now I'd say Bitcoins are better described as a commodity than a currency.

EDIT: and it can even be called money.

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June 22, 2011, 09:18:36 PM
 #14


Right "trade" / "trading units" / Barter == Legal
Money/ Currency == Illegal.

My point exactly.

Alternative currencies are not ilegal.

Maybe I'm wrong hugolp, but Gov has a monopoly on "legal tender/money." Surely you know the Liberty Dollar guy was convicted?
I would enjoy the experience of being taught otherwise*, thanks.

*I'm not being sarcastic, I don't always come up with the right words.

alternative currencies that could be easily mistaken for legal tender are.

being as bitcoin bears no resemblance to US dollars or any other world currency, they are legal.

i personally legally classify bitcoin as a community currency, like canadian tire money and similar.

IANAL, IANYL, TINLA.
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June 22, 2011, 09:20:34 PM
 #15

Alternative currencies are not ilegal.

Maybe I'm wrong hugolp, but Gov has a monopoly on "legal tender/money." Surely you know the Liberty Dollar guy was convicted?
I would enjoy the experience of being taught otherwise*, thanks.

*I'm not being sarcastic, I don't always come up with the right words.

1. Legal tender laws dont forbid other currencies. Legal tender law forces you to accept dollars (or the currency of the government of each country) to settle all debts. This is actually attacking your right to a contract. F.e. Imagine you sign a contract stating that you will do X in exchange for an amount of silver. You do X and when it comes to pay you the person refuses and offers dollars. You dont accept since you want the conditions of the contract. The courts will rule that he/she can pay you in dollars instead of silver because its legal tender, and therefore good to settle any debt.

This is why (almost) nobody signs a contract in anything that is not dollars in the USA. If you do it does not matter because the other person can settle in dollars anyway, so everybody ends up using dollars.

2. The government does not forbid compiting currencies directly. What it does is give tremendous advantges to the dollar, basically legal tender laws and forcing everybody to pay taxes only in dollars. This is enough to create a de facto monopolly, but it looks nicer and less facist.

3. Liberty Dollar was taken down because it was accused of copying the government money. They said he wanted to fool people into believing that the Liberty dollars were Federal Reserve Notes. They were not charged for operating an alternative currency, since its legal. The acussation is obviously an excuse to take down a competing currency that was starting to take off. Its one more prove that they will do anything to impose a monopolly on money, but they will try to do it in the nicest way so they can say that they are not imposing the dollar.
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June 22, 2011, 09:21:04 PM
 #16


Right "trade" / "trading units" / Barter == Legal
Money/ Currency == Illegal.

My point exactly.

Alternative currencies are not ilegal.

Maybe I'm wrong hugolp, but Gov has a monopoly on "legal tender/money." Surely you know the Liberty Dollar guy was convicted?
I would enjoy the experience of being taught otherwise*, thanks.

*I'm not being sarcastic, I don't always come up with the right words.

hugo is right, alternative currencies are not illegal so log as they don't try to imitate legal tender which what they hanged Liberety dollar on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_currency

I think a cool description of Bitcoin could be a local globally used currency Smiley)

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June 22, 2011, 09:29:16 PM
 #17

They're an electronic currency which can be sold or bought for legal tender currencies.

FYP

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June 22, 2011, 09:35:36 PM
 #18

They're an electronic currency which can be sold or bought for legal tender currencies.

FYP

Converted / Sold / Exchanged.  The point is still the same.  They're not an end unto themselves, they simply facilitate trade.

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June 22, 2011, 09:39:09 PM
 #19

They're an electronic currency which can be sold or bought for legal tender currencies.

FYP

Converted / Sold / Exchanged.  The point is still the same.  They're not an end unto themselves, they simply facilitate trade.

Facilitating trade is not an end unto itself? Wink
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June 22, 2011, 09:43:06 PM
 #20

Facilitating trade is not an end unto itself? Wink

Nope.  I thought I made myself clear on that point.  They're a medium of exchange.  They're desired because they facilitate trade.  They're not desired because someone wants to place them on their lawn, atop their TV, eat them, etc.  Some weirdo might have a goal to accumulate them without EVER using them to facilitate a trade for SOMETHING ELSE -- but I have yet to run into such a person.  And I doubt that you have either.


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