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Author Topic: The Holy Grail! I wish I could kiss the author of Bitmessage on his face.  (Read 92691 times)
fellowtraveler (OP)
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May 30, 2013, 09:59:33 AM
 #261

My questions are in what I sent to the Open Transactions team a day or two ago:

An issuer creates something that is tradable, but such tradable things should be redeemable.

Indeed. This is true for all currencies except for purely virtual, blockchain-based currencies like BTC and LTC. (No real-world redemption is necessary for such tokens because the token itself is all there is.)

Whereas if a digital currency is "backed" with anything (gold-based, dollar-based, etc) then it becomes inescapable that there must be some form of "issuer" who is holding the gold.

...Which implies counter-party risk.

Open-Transactions was originally meant for such gold-based currencies. The idea was never to eliminate the risk of the issuer, which is impossible, but rather, to devise mechanisms for the distribution of that risk in order to create a user-centric system. This is the same concept, BTW, as the provider-independent Tahoe-LAFS project.

"Tahoe-LAFS is the first Free Software/Open Source storage technology to offer provider-independent security. Provider-independent security means that the integrity and confidentiality of your files is guaranteed by mathematics computed on the client side, and is independent of the servers, which may be owned and operated by someone else."

The original idea with Open-Transactions was to implement this same concept for money.

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In the video, the examples were game tokens and grams of silver.  Redemption obviously means that the holder gives the tradable digital issue back to the issuer in return for... something (game tokens or silver, in this case).  Any reasonable issue is going to identify that for which the digital currency can be redeemed in the contract that defines the issue.  My question is what happens when the issuer fails to honor that contract?

If someone is holding your physical gold, and then he refuses to give you the gold back, then you have lost your gold. This, as I said, is absolutely inescapable except for purely blockchain-based currencies like BTC.

...So what can you do? There's always the "Jim Bell" solution, or the "crappy court system" solution. Or the "insurance" solution. Or the "reputations tracking" solution.

What I settled on with OT was basket currencies. That is, to distribute the risk of a single currency across multiple issuers, such that the loss of a single issuer does not result in the total destruction of value, of that currency.

Another piece to this is jurisdictional arbitrage. Which is to say, these multiple issuers should all be located in different jurisdictions. To their credit, the Ripple team is exploiting this mechanism also, in their own way.

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What I would expect to happen is that the holder of the issued currency sues the issuer in civil court and presents the evidence of the contract in order to have the court decide in their favor.  However, because the system is based on Nyms instead of names, the holder can expect it to be impossible to find the issuer.

I would think that the issuers are more likely to be publicly-known (by their choice), while the users would be the ones more likely to hide their identities.

If you give your gold to an anonymous entity, you are taking a much larger risk than if that entity is publicly-known. Of course, it is your choice to do so, and the free market will have to take its course.

So I ask: why would you choose an issuer who is anonymous, over one who has an agent available to receive service of process?

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The solution to this problem is publication, so is there a mechanism in OT through which a Nym can be tagged as having failed to honor one of its contracts?

There is no such mechanism within OT itself, however, this is outside of the scope of OT.

A certain Nym ID is the same across all OT servers. Thus, there's nothing preventing tracking mechanisms from popping up -- reputation-tracking websites for example, or some form of web-of-trust. But I think it would be better to use software especially suited for this purpose -- perhaps Monkeysphere?

One point though: The OT crypto is currently implemented using OpenSSL, which is able to verify identities through their certificate authority / PKI.

However, all the OT crypto is used through an abstract interface, the OTCrypto class, which is then implemented to use OpenSSL calls in a subclass called OTCrypto_OpenSSL.

It would not be difficult to make another subclass called, say, OTCrypto_GPG, and you could thus entirely swap out OT's crypto (currently based on OpenSSL) to use GPG instead.

I believe web-of-trust is available through GPG?  So that might be one solution that could be built directly into OT itself, with little trouble. Then it could potentially verify the Nym's credentials via web-of-trust instead of CA / PKI.

But otherwise, as I said, it's probably better to track this outside of OT, using some other software which is especially designed to implement such functionality.

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(After reading the thread, I have to add: Any colored coin tied to that issuer, either for the currency itself or for a basket currency that has it as a component, will change in value depending on the perceived likelihood of such an "Issuer default".  And it's never a yes/no black and white thing until the moment that everybody capitulates to the fact that the issued currency is valueless.  Until then, it will go up and down.)

The risk of issuer-default is inescapable for any "backed" currency. We cannot entirely eliminate risk; we can only devise better and better systems for the distribution of that risk in a wallet-centric way.

You are entirely correct about this, of course. The market will have to make certain decisions and they will take things such as jurisdiction into account. (As well as posted bonds, insurance, auditing protocols, reputation, etc.)

===> See this article.

Quote
I have some other questions too, one of which is this: If the private key for a Nym is compromised, does OT have a mechanism that (any) holder(s) of that private key can use to mark it as compromised?

I have recently added "credentials" to Nyms, meaning that Nyms can have master credentials, which are able to sign sub-credentials, which are then used for actual transaction signing. I have not yet added API calls for revoking sub-credentials, however they are coming.

If your master credential is based purely on a key pair, and then you lose the private key, well -- you are screwed. (Some would say this is a feature.)

However the idea is that your master credential could instead be based on a cert, issued by a traditional certificate authority. This way you could just get the cert revoked and have a new one issued in such a situation. (The risk, of course, then becomes the certificate authority itself, whom you must trust not to take over your Nym and steal all your money.)

A third concept (my favorite one) is to use the blockchain itself to replace the certificate authority. A certain Bitcoin address could send a transfer (say a satoshi, to anyone) and store a hash in that transfer. (The hash of a master credential...) This way, if you ever wish to revoke that master credential, you just send a new transfer with a new credential hash in it. (The verification process would just look at the hash contained in the most recent transfer for that BTC address.)

This might seem like "turtles all the way down," since the power over that identity just gets transferred to a new private key (your Bitcoin wallet) which again, must be protected against loss. But it does provide a universally-verifiable medium for credentials and revoking.

You might ask, why not use Namecoin instead of Bitcoin, for storing these credential hashes? The answer is because Namecoin names expire, since they must be human-readable. In my case, I don't need human-readable -- just unique. Therefore, I prefer to use a system which does not expire. (Namecoin is still very useful as a DNS replacement, however.)

So my ultimate answer is, I plan to use Bitcoin itself to replace the Certificate Authority.

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Is there a mechanism that allows the assets of a Nym to be available to some kind of "Nym heir," so that the mechanism through which the Nym is marked as compromised will cause its assets to become available to a different Nym?

Currently nothing like this is built-in, but it would be easy to add. You could also secret-share your BTC private key (used for issuing new credentials, in the above example) and then give the shares to various trusted family members. After all, as you noted, you wouldn't want to die and leave your wife destitute and starving on the street.

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May 30, 2013, 10:48:34 AM
 #262

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"A certain Nym ID is the same across all OT servers. Thus, there's nothing preventing tracking mechanisms from popping up -- reputation-tracking websites for example, or some form of web-of-trust. But I think it would be better to use software especially suited for this purpose -- perhaps Monkeysphere?"

Destruction funds utilizing the principals of the nash equilibrium is a MUCH better solution to the trust issue than reputation imo. With a trust based system different liabilities from different people have different values, this makes the asset that corresponds to these liabilities into a heterogeneous good. By utilizing the nash equilibrium we can homogenize these liabilities into a uniform homogeneous good. In order to discover an objectively valid price for a good that good must be made homogenous. Imagine if i asked you what is the price of one acre of land. it would be a ridiculous question because land is a heterogeneous good.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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May 30, 2013, 05:16:39 PM
 #263

I've been meaning to read this thread all week and I finally got time over the last couple of days. I have to say, I'm very impressed!

I know the original post was about BitMessage integration with Open-Transactions, but this is the first time I have read about either technologies. I've read/heard a lot about Ripple (in original and new form), but OT had some how slipped past me so far.

OT has clearly been well thought out. Having read all the posts and found fellowtraveler's comments very helpful, I am now rather excited about this.

The concept of detaching issuers and users from OT servers is brilliant. Having OT servers just acting as blind processing nodes is a great idea and I didn't even realise it was possible!

Detaching issuers from OT servers strips the former of their power to abuse their position. IOUs cannot match this ability.

Detaching users from OT servers strips the latter operators of their power to abuse their position. IOUs cannot match this ability.

I like the way no new currency internal OT currency is needed either, with Bitcoins providing a useful store of value at the core. This seems to be building on top of what already works well.

It will be interesting to see how readily people will leave Bitcoins or colored coins within the OT system. I can certainly see people trusting OT far more than current exchanges. Considering how users and issuers are also detached from OT, this would further encourage trust.
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May 31, 2013, 12:16:06 AM
Last edit: May 31, 2013, 08:23:03 AM by fellowtraveler
 #264

The Holy Grail in 7 easy steps:

1. Imagine an issuer, who issues a Euro-based currency in the form of colored-coins on the blockchain. (Hereafter, let's refer to these as "Eurocoins.")

2. This issuer buys and sells his own Eurocoins, in return for Euro bank wires. These wires can be fully AML/KYC compliant -- and most users will never have to deal with the issuer directly anyway. Why not?

-- Because as long as the issuer serves as the "redeemer of last resort" then users will rarely have to sell Eurocoins back to the issuer, because instead, they can sell and buy them directly from each other.

3. Users then upload Eurocoins (and Bitcoins) to Open-Transactions servers. Except the coins don't go directly to the server -- instead, they go into a multi-sig voting pool on the blockchain itself.

-- This way, the OT server can issue units based on those Bitcoins and Eurocoins, but cannot steal those coins from the pool. (Also, internally, the OT server is unable to change balances or forge receipts.)

4. Notice that the Eurocoin issuer is now entirely divorced from the transaction server where those coins are traded. That is, the issuer may not even be aware of all the servers that are trading around his Eurocoins. (Just as the Federal Reserve has no liability for what happens to individual dollars once they have been released into the wild.)

5. Once Bitcoins and Eurocoins are issued as units inside Open-Transactions, users can safely trade them on markets, as well as use financial instruments--cheques, cash, basket currencies, smart contracts (including escrow), etc. Instant clearing can happen here. All the normal OT capabilities.

6. Since OT can perform escrow, for example, Alice can send Eurocoin units (inside Open-Transactions) to Jorg, in return for a SEPA transfer from Jorg to Alice's legacy Euro bank account.

-- Notice that Jorg is not an issuer, and he does not operate any servers. He is merely another user, who buys and sells colored coins (via OT escrow.) He does not hold any money on behalf of anyone else. This is in contrast to Ripple, where the gateway also operates a server, *and* also issues credit (or holds money on behalf of those who do.)

7. The integration of Bitmessage as a discovery layer, makes possible the wiring of units from one OT server to another, in addition to cross-server discovery for the purposes of market exchange or fiat transfer. (See the original post in this thread.)



Now what capabilities do we gain, as a result of all this?

--- We have currency issuers who do not process any transactions, and in fact are entirely divorced from any transaction processing. These entities can be entirely KYC / AML compliant.

--- We have users who can convert any currency into any other currency, on OT markets.

--- Our users can then convert in/out of legacy banks without dealing with the issuers directly, since they can just buy/sell colored coins directly from other users.

--- We have transaction servers who can operate anonymously, yet who cannot disappear with the funds, and who cannot forge the receipts.

--- We have cross-server trading, and wiring of funds.


May a million currencies bloom!

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May 31, 2013, 01:20:33 AM
 #265

The first step that I'm skeptical of is where an issuer issues colored coins and promises to redeem them on demand, but without tracking the identities of their owners as ownership changes via the blockchain.  Wouldn't regulators argue that colored coin issuers are legally required to do this?  Aren't they otherwise essentially issuing bearer bonds, which seem to be de facto illegal now?  The functional similarities between such an issuer and, say, Liberty Reserve are somewhat discomforting.

Also, it seems by your logic that the only thing protecting the OT token issuers themselves from falling under regulation is potential anonymity provided by the blockchain's obfuscation of the colored coin owners.  But the above argument seems to suggest that the OT token issuer's identity must be known by the colored coin issuer for them to remain in compliance with regulation, and so the OT token issuer isn't "entirely divorced" from the colored coin issuer at all.
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May 31, 2013, 01:54:58 AM
 #266

With this idea the exchanges are still centralized right? still points of failure. There is no reason why we couldn't have this totally decentralized.


I actually DID recently develop a concept that can be used to create decentralized exchanges.  It's very similar in structure to Bitcoin.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwUFHE6KYsM0ZkxLVmFwbXQ3ck0/edit?usp=sharing

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May 31, 2013, 02:10:51 AM
 #267

With this idea the exchanges are still centralized right? still points of failure. There is no reason why we couldn't have this totally decentralized.


I actually DID recently develop a concept that can be used to create decentralized exchanges.  It's very similar in structure to Bitcoin.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwUFHE6KYsM0ZkxLVmFwbXQ3ck0/edit?usp=sharing

But it is just a concept, right? There are tons of P2P exchange 'concepts' out there .... code, or it didn't happen.

Besides when you have 50 or 100 identical exchange servers performing identical signatory tasks ... is that really still centralized? I don't see how.

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May 31, 2013, 02:18:15 AM
 #268

With this idea the exchanges are still centralized right? still points of failure. There is no reason why we couldn't have this totally decentralized.


I actually DID recently develop a concept that can be used to create decentralized exchanges.  It's very similar in structure to Bitcoin.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwUFHE6KYsM0ZkxLVmFwbXQ3ck0/edit?usp=sharing

But it is just a concept, right? There are tons of P2P exchange 'concepts' out there .... code, or it didn't happen.

Besides when you have 50 or 100 identical exchange servers performing identical signatory tasks ... is that really still centralized? I don't see how.

you obviously didn't read the paper.

a detailed discussion can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212841.msg2280478#msg2280478

of course it's not centralized, it's peer to peer.  You could for instance run a currency from your cell phone.  Many of the claims made on this thread re. OT don't really make much sense, and the discussions appear distorted- seems to be common whenever the subject is Open Transactions.  It's almost as if there is a internet marketing(spam) expert behind all this.  Adding Bitmessage to OT does not make it Peer-To-Peer.

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May 31, 2013, 02:57:18 AM
 #269

With this idea the exchanges are still centralized right? still points of failure. There is no reason why we couldn't have this totally decentralized.


I actually DID recently develop a concept that can be used to create decentralized exchanges.  It's very similar in structure to Bitcoin.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwUFHE6KYsM0ZkxLVmFwbXQ3ck0/edit?usp=sharing

There's nothing at that link.

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May 31, 2013, 03:18:21 AM
Last edit: May 31, 2013, 03:43:28 AM by bluemeanie1
 #270

With this idea the exchanges are still centralized right? still points of failure. There is no reason why we couldn't have this totally decentralized.


I actually DID recently develop a concept that can be used to create decentralized exchanges.  It's very similar in structure to Bitcoin.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwUFHE6KYsM0ZkxLVmFwbXQ3ck0/edit?usp=sharing

There's nothing at that link.

are you sure?  seems to work for others.

you can also download it here:  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bitcoinx/oAERXr17zII/5O5EDkkWcpwJ

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May 31, 2013, 05:17:27 AM
 #271


A third concept (my favorite one) is to use the blockchain itself to replace the certificate authority. A certain Bitcoin address could send a transfer (say a satoshi, to anyone) and store a hash in that transfer. (The hash of a master credential...) This way, if you ever wish to revoke that master credential, you just send a new transfer with a new credential hash in it. (The verification process would just look at the hash contained in the most recent transfer for that BTC address.)


I've thought about the possibility of using the blockchain to contain the structure of a self-governing web of trust. Have you given any thought to this?

My idea is that you'd start off with a large odd-numbered founding group who would all prove their real world ID to each other and then they would initiate smaller groups by "passing the baton" (or issuing a cert) of some kind to them so that they could then initiate other groups, always being sponsored by previously validated groups, and so on and so on.

The "baton" could be a password/key, or colored coins, released through a voting mechanism. I understand that Bitcoin also has many latent features for doings all sorts of interesting transaction types which amount basically to contracts and/or mini programs. And since Namecoin purports to do stuff like this, I imagine you can just use the original - Bitcoin.

I was thinking of a cell structure for the WoT where only a handful of people in the network would have access to your ID and it takes a vote of those trustees to reveal it to another member who prevails in a case against you. There would be a public organizational tree on the blockchain so that a plaintiff could apply to your sponsor group to file a complaint. This sort of action would be a last resort and only used to deal with the real bad actors after other mechanisms failed. The ultimate sanction would be to blacklist your real ID from the network. The knowledge of this backstop of accountability to one's peers will motivate everyone to play nice and safeguard their reputation - because ultimately it's YOU and not some dime-a-dozen pseudonym that's vulnerable to being exposed.

The potential for self-governing mechanisms with open P2P and crypto are really fascinating. I think a WoT is the best solution for carrying on serious free-flowing commerce long term. There's nothing like the threat of WKWYL (We Know Where You Live) to force people to play nice. The ability to have trusted certification of an ID, even if it's just vouching for the fact that some pseudonym reflects a unique real person who was validated and can only register once, is a very powerful way to ensure the success of a network of traders, IMO.

Are there any real technical barriers to encoding a WoT on the Bitcoin blockchain and/or OT?


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May 31, 2013, 06:10:42 AM
 #272

of course it's not centralized, it's peer to peer.  You could for instance run a currency from your cell phone.  Many of the claims made on this thread re. OT don't really make much sense, and the discussions appear distorted- seems to be common whenever the subject is Open Transactions...

I suggest people take "bluemeanie1" with a grain of salt.

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May 31, 2013, 06:29:19 AM
 #273

The first step that I'm skeptical of is where an issuer issues colored coins and promises to redeem them on demand, but without tracking the identities of their owners as ownership changes via the blockchain.

-- Then again, remember that this issuer can remain fully AML/KYC compliant.

-- Meaning they can demand the same information for all bailments in/out, that MtGox demands.

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Wouldn't regulators argue that colored coin issuers are legally required to do this?  Aren't they otherwise essentially issuing bearer bonds, which seem to be de facto illegal now?  The functional similarities between such an issuer and, say, Liberty Reserve are somewhat discomforting.

Well this is a good point, and only a lawyer and/or test case will tell for sure. It might depend on the jurisdiction.

This also might apply to miners. After all, they are also releasing a currency into circulation which is traded as "bearer". In fact, FinCen has already stated that people who create virtual currency and sell it for money -- must register as money transmitters.

This also applies to BTC exchanges. After all, exchanges are also expected to follow "know your customer" regulations for all bailments in/out of the system. Yet they also do not track ownership changes for bitcoins that circulate outside of their system, even though they follow KYC/AML for bailments in/out.

Quote
Also, it seems by your logic that the only thing protecting the OT token issuers themselves from falling under regulation is potential anonymity provided by the blockchain's obfuscation of the colored coin owners.

...Until they go to the issuer for redemption, at which point they must identify themselves according to KYC/AML regulations.

Quote
But the above argument seems to suggest that the OT [transaction server]'s identity must be known by the colored coin issuer for them to remain in compliance with regulation, and so the OT [transaction server] isn't "entirely divorced" from the colored coin issuer at all.

The colored coin issuer doesn't issue onto the transaction server, he issues onto the blockchain. So by your logic, he must know the identities of all the miners who process that system. In fact, by that logic, all miners must know the identities of all other miners, in order to stay compliant.

In my own scenario, it's the users who issue the colored coins onto OT transaction servers. I say that the currency issuer is "entirely divorced" because he hasn't issued the coins onto any transaction servers at all -- although he has no way of preventing others from doing so.

I think you have raised some good points, although I think if they are true, they will also apply to Bitcoin miners, Bitcoin exchanges in general, and even the Federal Reserve itself. It will be interesting to see how the courts, and the various jurisdictions, deal with all of this.

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May 31, 2013, 06:33:47 AM
 #274

This is in contrast to Ripple, where the issuer also operates a server, *and* also issues credit.

This is not true, I think. Technically you can issue a currency without either operating a server or issuing credit.

ROI is not a verb, the term you're looking for is 'to break even'.
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May 31, 2013, 06:43:01 AM
 #275

This is in contrast to Ripple, where the issuer also operates a server, *and* also issues credit.

This is not true, I think. Technically you can issue a currency without either operating a server or issuing credit.

Sorry, I meant to say "gateway"...

The post is now fixed:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212490.msg2324287#msg2324287

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May 31, 2013, 06:44:58 AM
Last edit: May 31, 2013, 07:04:02 AM by mmeijeri
 #276

It's likely that gateways will run their own servers, but technically they don't have to. They do issue credit, by definition. They don't even issue credit, people have to extend them credit. They hold money for others.

ROI is not a verb, the term you're looking for is 'to break even'.
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May 31, 2013, 06:46:22 AM
 #277

If you use OT for trading coloured coins, is there still an advantage to having separate issuers and servers?

ROI is not a verb, the term you're looking for is 'to break even'.
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May 31, 2013, 06:49:27 AM
 #278

If you use OT for trading coloured coins, is there still an advantage to having separate issuers and servers?

-- If it's a colored coin, then by definition there is an issuer.

-- The reason for doing the transactions on an OT transaction server is to gain the benefits of OT, such as untraceable cash, instant transactions, markets, cheques, stocks with dividends, basket currencies, micro-transactions, destruction of receipt history, off-chain transactions, etc.

Therefore it seems that even with colored coins, there will be issuers and servers.

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May 31, 2013, 06:59:33 AM
 #279

Therefore it seems that even with colored coins, there will be issuers and servers.

Sure, but what's the advantage of having the issuers separate from the servers? I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm just trying to understand the reasoning.

ROI is not a verb, the term you're looking for is 'to break even'.
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May 31, 2013, 07:16:06 AM
 #280

of course it's not centralized, it's peer to peer.  You could for instance run a currency from your cell phone.  Many of the claims made on this thread re. OT don't really make much sense, and the discussions appear distorted- seems to be common whenever the subject is Open Transactions...

I suggest people take "bluemeanie1" with a grain of salt.

 do you suggest that?  You were the one who wanted to remove the thread.

 Meanwhile, you have absolutely NOTHING to show for your claims.  Im starting to suspect that you are sock puppeting here, Reddit, and other sources of information on Bitcoin.  This new "OT + BitMessage = Kingdom Come" seems to have been exactly timed at the release of my paper(which you keep claiming you never read, but also referred to numerous times).  Being that Chris can't seem to conduct himself without making personal attacks(this is the second time), he forces me to account for our work together, his plan to commercialize OT at the expense of the community, and his all round sketchiness.  Why does it seems OT is being discussed, but no one seems to know exactly what it does?  This doesn't sound like an open source project to me.  That's because it isn't one.  How many open source projects do you know that have no real users, appear to be discussed constantly on every subject imaginable, and no one seems to know how it works, and there is a company already formed to implement ideas using it?  Remember Chris was an spam marketer before he decided to become a digital currency guru, this is probably why he knows a thing or two about how to hide your IP, how Tor works, etc.  Just consider how many REAL people you know who claim to have used OT for something useful.  Many people I know personally were complaining about his recent spam initiative entering their space through a variety of vectors and how annoying it was.

 Meanwhile, all I am doing on here is talking about a completely free and open digital currency concept which Chris appears to hate with a passion.

 IT SLICES, IT DICES, IT JULIANNES, IT'S OPEN TRANSACTIONS(tm)!  now with P2P flavor!  buy now and get a free internet!

 of course we can say that OT does all these things.  We can also say a toaster does the same things as a 747 if we just add a fuselage, a jet engine, wings, and a few other features.  We would only have this scenario if someone were trying to SELL us the toaster.  That might provide you with a hint.

do not trust this spam marketing leprechaun, I unfortunately did.

Just who IS bluemeanie?    On NXTautoDAC and a Million Stolen NXT

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