Are BFL Jalapeños worth it?

[MinerLT]

Also, because BFL will give out refunds, it's not definable as a scam. There really is no point in suing because they're willing to refund you what you're due. Seeing the way they're performing a refund might be a good idea.

Everyone's* too scared to get a refund because they could ship any day now!

was the same feeling 4 month ago 

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[glendall]

If they exist, were able to be delivered in less than ...3 months at the latest, and the company was trustworthy, then yes, Jalap's would be worth it.

But I don't think any of this ^^^ is the case.

[The 4ner]

You may be right. I was thinking of placing an order for one but I just started to notice how grandiose of a problem this BFL scam is. I would see a lot of complaints about them before but never really looked into it in detail. Now knowing that some purchasers have been waiting for their products since last year really is eye opening. Thanks for all your responses guys. As cool as those things look I probably won't be purchasing one until I see a change in the community's attitude toward BFL.

[Xian01]

I was thinking of placing an order for one but I just started to notice how grandiose of a problem this BFL scam is.

 To be fair, it is not apropos to call Butterfly Labs a scam. Shady, evidently in over their heads, and completely disrespectful to their customers; definitely.

[ewitte]

The first orders didn't pay $275

[The 4ner]

How much did they pay then?

[ewitte]

How much did they pay then?

Just a few months ago it was like $130

[Gator-hex]

If BFL has been such a disappointment why then hasn't anyone already sued them? In the U.S, I mean.

I think because they can just say "we still working on the products". If their delivery dates aren't stated in the contract, technically they have not broken the contract. As unethical as it is, according to the law I don't think they have done anything wrong.

This is what I think is happening:
- BFL had an idea to "sell" mining equipment and needed capital.
- Offered pre-orders and made people pay upfront to generate capital.
- They used the capital to buy the chips, manufacture the equipment

Now they are merrily mining as hard and fast as they can with everyone's paid for equipment and getting as much BTC as they can.
When the mining difficulty gets ridiculously high and it's no longer profitable to mine, they will start shipping these "tested" units to everyone who paid for them.
So all you people waiting with pre-orders will eventually get your kit from BFL, but only when it's too late to break even or get a ROI.

This makes sense.

This is the major problem with BFL, The convicted mail fraudster Sonny, is one of the people spearheading the company, The asshole Knows how to bend the rules of the law ALOT
through that knowledge they have been able to con people into investing in an idea, Rather than a product that is shipping a month after you preordered.

We are really going to have to Try, if someone tries to sue BFL, we would need a darn good lawyer who knows how class action lawsuits function (and thier simmilar lawsuit styles)

You don't need expensive lawyers just call the FBI and say people have been waiting 9 months for a product and you suspect Sonny is running another mail fraud and could they investigate/audit their accounts to see where the money/goods have gone.

"because BFL will give out refunds, it's not definable as a scam."

Pre-order/Arbitrage scams often give you your money back in a devalued currency or at a later date (Interest free loan that is used for currency speculation/equipment procurement). Lots of CEOs get done for miss-appropriating company/customer funds for personal gain. They've got no excuse for not refunding people in the same currency they paid in if they are running a bitcoin mining farm/pool.

[kevindeangelis]

I ordered one this month (not knowing that they were pre-order).  I didn't find that out until after I ordered and started reading all the posts about them.  ...

[mgio]

I ordered one this month (not knowing that they were pre-order).  I didn't find that out until after I ordered and started reading all the posts about them.  ...

I'd cancel your order. They aren't clear it's a "pre-order" presently.

And since there is 60,000 people ahead of you, I'd guessing you will get yours sometime earl 2014 at which point you'll never make your investment back.

[Xian01]

I ordered one this month (not knowing that they were pre-order).  I didn't find that out until after I ordered and started reading all the posts about them.  ...

 You have to give them credit for having mastered the art of issuing a refund. They break new ground in the field of proactive refunds.

 I might recommend you exercise that option until such time as Butterfly Labs has demonstrated an ability to reliably produce these units.

 One thing is absolutely certain, if you have placed an order within the last month, there is a volume of historical data that would lead one to believe they have no ability to deliver their pre-orders to you in a reasonable amount of time.

 Caveat emptor, most assuredly.

[stripykitteh]

I've been maintaining this spreadsheet with a count of BFL's highest order number; to calculate how many orders they receive per day (not all of these orders may have been paid for, you can create an order then not go through with it). Even though their reputation is poor they're still getting about 350 new orders per day. This has led me to believe they are primarily a marketing company that outsources engineering. That's why they're not very good engineers, certainly not on a par with ASICMiner or Avalon.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlTboxjHIfuGdFd4NEJOcVBqRHRnQkVfVWVCcnBfdVE#gid=1

I now look at everything official coming out of the company as PR spin - they never lie, but they never care not to mislead, either. If you look at everything they say and take it with a grain of salt, a lot of it starts to makes sense.

A case in point. The other day they announced they'd shipped Jalas for orders on 23/6, 24/6 and 25/6. I immediately thought that meant that they'd exhausted the 23/6 and 24/6 orders and had part-filled the 25/6 orders. Then I thought, no, they could fill a handful of orders from each day, and say the same thing, and it would still be true. So which is more likely? Given that they must have several hundred Jala orders from 23/6 and 24/6, it would be more likely that if they had filled all 23/6 and 24/6 orders they'd say so, as that is a significant improvement over what they've done so far. So being the good marketers they are, they effortlessly spun it to give the misleading impression of far more activity than is actually occurring. That's the thing about BFL: A-grade marketers, C-grade engineers.

[smoothie]

My opinion is if you order now you will likely not recoup your investment if you EVER get your order shipped to you in any meaningful amount of time.

[fitty]

With increasing difficulty would purchasing a BFL Jalapeño even be worth it?

In terms of cost/performance, they rank quite well. So if you could actually get them and they actually worked as advertised, sure they'd be great. Which is why everyone hasn't requested a refund, just in case they ship.

However, it's likely 4-6 months before you get the unit, maybe longer. At that timeframe, it's not worth it. There are better options available right now.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192916.0

Buys you some batch #3 ASIC chips. 16 for 5Gh/s or 64 for 19 Gh/s.

You should be able to get those built into a mining rig (through steamboat or someone else) within 10-12 weeks. If you were looking to get into ASIC mining, that's probably what I'd do.

[Sk1llS]

I don't think it makes sense for them to mine with equipment if they had it.  Certainly not fiscal sense, and they are clearly in the business of making money.

If BFL had units that they were confident in shipping to customers it would be absolutely in their best interest to ship those units, because the market has already shown that buyers are willing to pay far more for a functional miner that they can get in a reasonable amount of time.

You forgetting the fact that these units are already paid for. If BFL were to ship their backlog of orders right now, they will get nothing from them, besides delivering on their promise and making customers happy. They will lose a ton of hashing power that are generating tons of Bitcoins a day for them each valued at $120 per BTC.

Where as if they keep everyone's orders and equipment, then just ship 1 or 2 units a week, and continue mining it will be WAY more profitable for them.

I bet they have already generated enough BTC to refund EVERYONE 10 x what they paid for their "pre-orders".

What stops them keep this charade up for another year or so then shipping the equipment when it's worthless?

I have to say that this is dodgy as fuck, but you have to give it to him, he's an evil genius. A real piece of shit too!

[stripykitteh]

BFL's latest piece of marketing genius is to offer Jala customers the opportunity to 'upgrade' from a minimum of 5 GHash to a minimum of 7 GHash for an extra $100. It looks as though they're achieving this by shipping two under clocked chips in the Jala. If you pay the extra $100 you get a firmware upgrade that clocks the chips a bit higher. Remember, these are the chips that can't be clocked to reach full speed because they'll melt if they do.

If you think about it, it's amazing. They've turned an engineering failure into a marketing triumph. They pocket more cash from the queue without doing anything. If they'd honoured their promises they would have shipped most of those units months ago. However, they've correctly realized that they can shake down the people waiting patiently in the queue for a few more dollars. Those customers have psychologically made an emotional commitment to BFL now - sort of like putting up with a marriage that has turned out to be a disappointment because it's too hard to get divorced (and admit that you made a mistake). By spending the extra $100 customers give themselves the chance to renew that commitment to help endure the long wait ahead. Sort of like buying your wife in said unhappy marriage some flowers and champagne - you hope it'll put them in a good mood and maybe they'll stop being so bitchy for a bit.

A company that was focused on making its customers happy (or felt bad about mistakes that had been made in the past) would probably just ship units with 7GHash as partial compensation for the loss customers have suffered putting their faith in them, but as a marketing company BFL are far too smart for that.

Bravo, BFL! Bravo! Marketers everywhere salute you!

[Fiyasko]

-Snip-

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-Snip-

This is the major problem with BFL, The convicted mail fraudster Sonny, is one of the people spearheading the company, The asshole Knows how to bend the rules of the law ALOT
through that knowledge they have been able to con people into investing in an idea, Rather than a product that is shipping a month after you preordered.

We are really going to have to Try, if someone tries to sue BFL, we would need a darn good lawyer who knows how class action lawsuits function (and thier simmilar lawsuit styles)

You don't need expensive lawyers just call the <FBI/Probation officer> and say people have been waiting 9 months for a product and you suspect Sonny is running another mail fraud and could they investigate/audit their accounts to see where the money/goods have gone.

"because BFL will give out refunds, it's not definable as a scam."

Pre-order/Arbitrage scams often give you your money back in a devalued currency or at a later date (Interest free loan that is used for currency speculation/equipment procurement). Lots of CEOs get done for miss-appropriating company/customer funds for personal gain. They've got no excuse for not refunding people in the same currency they paid in if they are running a bitcoin mining farm/pool.

This could actually work! We have a legal chance to say "fuck you sonny!"

[Syke]

How much did they pay then?

Early pre-orders paid about 25 btc. At today's difficulty, a Jalapeno will take over 120 days to break even, assuming no difficulty increases. But there will be lots of increases, so it's unlikely that an early pre-order will ever break even. So no, Jalapenos are not worth it.

[pikeadz]

Also, because BFL will give out refunds, it's not definable as a scam. There really is no point in suing because they're willing to refund you what you're due. Seeing the way they're performing a refund might be a good idea.

Everyone's* too scared to get a refund because they could ship any day now!

was the same feeling 4 month ago 

^^^^^ Definition of a scam.

[newguy05]

This whole thing is a clever scam, think about it for a minute it's common sense. If you own the hardware that gives you a 10x advantage over the competition and make tons of money why would you ever sell them for pennies on the dollar and significantly decrease your profit?

Those are simple circuits that can be mass produced at large quantities once the design is done, what's happening is they needed money to get the initial order in so they hang a carrot in front of everyone then used preorder money to fund their orders and use the resulting hardware to make a lot of money themselves. You are essentially funding their profit center with a 0% interest rate, by comparison you make the US government look smart....  To keep the mobs down, they ship a few 5 GH/s only boxes to appear legit, which is nothing but a drop in the bucket.  

They will never mass ship those higher boxes in any large quantity until a time when the difficulty makes them irrelevant.  If they were selling the 5GH for $2000 and 50 GH for $15000 then i would at least give them the benefit of the doubt they are legit and focused on hardware sells.  The price they are asking is just a clever way to fund their own hardware.

We have so many smart people here, cant believe most dont realize this. I guess btc does make you go blind...