Problem with a transaction at Mt Gox

[WuLabsWuTecH]

I can prove that the address was used sending an amount from my Mt Gox account!

Please check this transaction in my account history: 2013/05/18 09:55:57 Withdraw  0.81385120 Bitcoin withdraw to 147gae1XZnB3F18HRusqKu3MfaH8Er2hpt

according to this: https://blockchain.info/nl/tx/0dd62e4644f1b7f47590edbeb860a7da794b0d51217bd0433ae4eaff7f54587d

the send address was 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5

Hold on.  I think I see the problem.  It looks like their is a miscommunication, but it looks like part of the problem is you misunderstanding how MtGox works.

First, 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5 is not an "account", it's a bitcoin address.  Calling it an account just increases the confusion.

Next, MtGox does not hold everyone's bitcoins in segregated addresses, just like when you deposit cash into a bank they don't mark those specific bills as yours and return them to you when you withdraw.  MtGox provides you in their user interface with an address that you can use to fund your account.  When they see funds arrive at that address, they know that your account should be credited.  Then those funds are swept from that "funding" address to other addresses where they are pooled with all the other bitcoins MtGox has received from everyone else.

When you "withdraw" funds from MtGox, they don't send them to you from your funding address.  They just take a random address from their pooled funds and send you some bitcoins from there.  There is no link created in their database from that address to your account specifically.  Sending funds to an address that you've received funds from is generally a bad idea and with MtGox, it is always a bad idea.

So, you may have to explain your issue to MtGox a bit differently to collect your funds.

Keep in mind that anyone could have accidentally sent funds to the address 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5, and since it isn't linked specifically to your account in their database and has never shown up in the user interface as a funding address for you, MtGox has to be careful not to give you bitcoins that belong to someone else.  I could contact them right now and tell them that I accidentally sent to the wrong address, and that those are my bitcoins (as could anyone else who is reading this forum).  They'll want/need to be sure that you actually are the right person to give those bitcoins to before they update your account.

Try contacting them again.  This time explain it something like this:

"I've just realized that I used an incorrect address when attempting to fund (deposit into) my account.  Rather than sending bitcoins to one of the "funding addresses" that MtGox provides, I accidentally sent bitcoins to an address that MtGox used when sending me a withdrawl in the past.  Can you confirm that MtGox owns the address 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5?  If so, can you please credit the 3.46700611 bitcoins from transaction 929ef144e5c7e439684d6f1f9ef86b332546794dcbaaaf61b3f365b72b0894b0 to my account: M90407683X.  I apologize for any inconvenience, and will be more careful about funding my account in the future.  I can provide a signature from address  1GwPaTHi6s3XkzaFQe7DwFJNXfmUTbRkiQ to prove that I was the person who sent those bitcoins if necessary."

So this address was be used with my Mt Gox account.

As I hope you understand now, this is not true.
 

Maybe something has gone wrong in your database?

As you can hopefully see now, the problem isn't in their database.  The problem is that with bitcoin you can never assume that an address that you receive bitcoins "from" is a good address to send bitcoins "to".

This is quite possibly the most useful post in this thread.  I didn't realize the OP sent the funds to an address he was paid from rather than one of his old funding addresses!  Good work in solving this mystery!  And yes, receiving funds at the payment address would confuse the hell outta gox because it's not set up to be that way.  They might not even realize there are funds sitting there!

[DannyHamilton]

- snip -
Results (or not) will be posted here.

Cheers, Hans

[WuLabsWuTecH]

- snip -
Results (or not) will be posted here.

Cheers, Hans

I'm not sure there is much mtgox can do.  We went over this analysis in another thread and we determined it would be very difficult if not impossible for MTGOX to find out who the owner of the 3+ btc is.

[hvanra]

I gave up....


________________________________________

Hvanra


I've just realized that I used an incorrect address when attempting to fund (deposit into) my account. Rather than sending bitcoins to one of the "funding addresses" that MtGox provides, I accidentally sent bitcoins to an address that MtGox used when sending me a withdrawl in the past. Can you confirm that MtGox owns the address 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5? If so, can you please credit the 3.46700611 bitcoins from transaction 929ef144e5c7e439684d6f1f9ef86b332546794dcbaaaf61b3f365b72b0894b0 to my account: M90407683X. I apologize for any inconvenience, and will be more careful about funding my account in the future.

Hans


May 24, 2013 00:36

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linda Support

Support Desk


Hello,

Thank you for the email. I am sorry to inform you that once the withdrawal is initiated it cannot be cancelled or the BTC cannot be retrieved. For your information, 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5 is a withdrawal BTC address and the BTC cannot be retrieved. Please contact us back for further assistance.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team


May 29, 2013 18:41

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Hvanra


Hi,

it wasn't a withdrawal. I made a DEPOSIT to 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5.
Since this address is owned by Mt Gox you are able to credit the bitcoins to my account.

Please look into the matter.

Thank you, Hans


June 01, 2013 03:47
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcus

Support Desk


Hello Hans,

Thank you for your reply and sorry for the confusion.

To start with BTC address 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5 is not linked to your account or any account here in Mt.Gox and please be advised that if BTC address is not linked there is no chance for your BTC to reach your Mt.Gox BTC wallet.

Please contact sender to have your funds returned. Let us know if you would require any further assistance regarding this issue.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team


June 01, 2013 13:24
.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Linda Support

Support Desk


Hello,

Would you require any further assistance regarding this matter?

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team


June 05, 2013 00:59

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Yeah, it looks like you sent BTC to a ghost account. Oh well, live and learn from your mistakes!  If it make syou feel better, you are not the first person who has made this mistake!

[DannyHamilton]

That is ridiculous.  It is clear to me why so many people complain about MtGox.  They need to provide a way to get assistance from someone who can actually understand what people are saying.

I could understand if they resonded saying it is against their policy to credit an account with bitcoins that are sent to the wrong address, but you've clearly stated multiple times that you are the sender and that you were depositing bitcoins into MtGox.  Yet, they reply with advice about what happenes "once the withdrawal is initiated" and telling you to "contact sender"?



I'm beyond words.

I've made an attempt to get the attention of anyone who might be able to help:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228237.0
MtGox steals 3.46700611 BTC!

[DannyHamilton]

hvanra,

I contacted MtGox myself attempting to explain the situation.  I finally managed to converse with someone who appeared to understand what I was explaining.  MtGox has informed me that they will not credit an account with bitcoins that are not sent to the correct funding address.  It appears that MtGox has chosen to simply keep the bitcoins for themselves.  Now that MtGox has established that they prefer to engage in theft rather than provide reasonable customer assistance, you may want to look into other exchanges in the future.  I certainly won't be using MtGox, nor will I be recommending them to anyone.

Can you please assist me. I made a deposit to a MtGox address, but it was the wrong address. Is there a way that you can see that my deposit was made and credit my account?

Hello,

Thank you for the email. Could you please provide your mtgox username and account number to check further. Also send in your scanned copy of the deposit.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

The MtGox account number is M90407683X.

On 2013-05-19 I was trying to add 3.46700611 bitcoins to my account.  In bitcoin transaction 929ef144e5c7e439684d6f1f9ef86b332546794dcbaaaf61b3f365b72b0894b0 I accidentally sent the bitcoins to MtGox address 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5 instead of sending to the funding address for my account.

I have confirmed that MtGox controls the address 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5.  It was used by MtGox as a transaction input in bitcoin transaction 0dd62e4644f1b7f47590edbeb860a7da794b0d51217bd0433ae4eaff7f54587d when I successfully withdrew 0.8138512 bitcoins to my address 147gae1XZnB3F18HRusqKu3MfaH8Er2hpt on 2013-05-18

If there is any additional information I can supply to assist you in crediting my account with these bitcoins that I sent to the wrong MtGox address, please let me know.  I'll do whatever I can to assist you in resolving this issue.  Clearly you have my bitcoins, since 1PZmRkTrBv8sSn1mgYtjeVwJLtxwUGEHr5 is a MtGox address and is unlikely to be anybody else's funding address.

Hello,

Thank you for the email. We will have a check on this and will update you soon.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

Hello,

Thank you for the email. This is a temporary address used only to send BTC's. It cannot be used for receiving them and it is not linked with any wallet. We will not be able to recover the BTC. We apologize for any inconvenience caused to you. For any support assistance get back to us.

Best regards,

Mt.Gox Team

[socket]

The moral of this story is always double, nay triple check, the addresses you use for transactions.  The power of Bitcoin is a double edged sword.

[DannyHamilton]

The moral of this story is always double, nay triple check, the addresses you use for transactions.  The power of Bitcoin is a double edged sword.

In this case, any amount of re-checking wouldn't have helped.

The address used IS a MtGox address.  The user intended to send bitcoins to MtGox, and the user sent bitcoins to MtGox.  The issue was that the user didn't understand how a MtGox funding address works.  The user used exactly the address they intended to use, so double and triple checking wouldn't have helped.

[mprep]

The moral of this story is always double, nay triple check, the addresses you use for transactions.  The power of Bitcoin is a double edged sword.

In this case, any amount of re-checking wouldn't have helped.

The address used IS a MtGox address.  The user intended to send bitcoins to MtGox, and the user sent bitcoins to MtGox.  The issue was that the user didn't understand how a MtGox funding address works.  The user used exactly the address they intended to use, so double and triple checking wouldn't have helped.

So what should a person do in this situation to make sure such mishaps don't happen?

[DannyHamilton]

The moral of this story is always double, nay triple check, the addresses you use for transactions.  The power of Bitcoin is a double edged sword.

In this case, any amount of re-checking wouldn't have helped.

The address used IS a MtGox address.  The user intended to send bitcoins to MtGox, and the user sent bitcoins to MtGox.  The issue was that the user didn't understand how a MtGox funding address works.  The user used exactly the address they intended to use, so double and triple checking wouldn't have helped.

So what should a person do in this situation to make sure such mishaps don't happen?

There is very little regulation or law regarding the use of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is pretty much a pure example of "caveat emptor".  There is nothing but the reputation of the entity you are transacting with protecting you from fraud, deceptive business practices, false advertising, user error, or your own lack of research/understanding.

It is up to each individual to make sure they fully understand exactly what is required of them before they send any bitcoins anywhere, and understand any risks they may be taking in sending those bitcoins.

If you disagree with the business practices of a particular bitcoin business, your best options are:

• Let the business know which particular practice as offended you
• Let the business know that the practice has caused them to lose your business in the future
• Let the business know that you will make sure to inform everyone possible of the offending practice
• Let the business know that you will recommend against their business at any opportunity
• Follow through (ie. don't use the business anymore, inform others, recommend against the business){/li]
  

In this way market forces will force the business to either change their behavior, or lose so many customers as to become unprofitable.

[socket]

The moral of this story is always double, nay triple check, the addresses you use for transactions.  The power of Bitcoin is a double edged sword.

In this case, any amount of re-checking wouldn't have helped.

The address used IS a MtGox address.  The user intended to send bitcoins to MtGox, and the user sent bitcoins to MtGox.  The issue was that the user didn't understand how a MtGox funding address works.  The user used exactly the address they intended to use, so double and triple checking wouldn't have helped.

I don't agree.  Just because it's a MtGox address doesn't mean it's the correct one for your account.  I'm pretty sure there is a reason why MtGox gives it's users a wallet on their account to use.  Double checking could have helped to avoid the situation if one checked to see if the address was a wallet address specific to your account.

[DannyHamilton]

The moral of this story is always double, nay triple check, the addresses you use for transactions.  The power of Bitcoin is a double edged sword.

In this case, any amount of re-checking wouldn't have helped.

The address used IS a MtGox address.  The user intended to send bitcoins to MtGox, and the user sent bitcoins to MtGox.  The issue was that the user didn't understand how a MtGox funding address works.  The user used exactly the address they intended to use, so double and triple checking wouldn't have helped.

I don't agree.  Just because it's a MtGox address doesn't mean it's the correct one for your account.  I'm pretty sure there is a reason why MtGox gives it's users a wallet on their account to use.  Double checking could have helped to avoid the situation if one checked to see if the address was a wallet address specific to your account.

But in this case the user didn't understand the difference between a funding address specific to their account, and an address that bitcoins were stored at prior to MtGox sending them to a withdrawal address in their own wallet.

They could have checked that address a million times on blockchain.info and in their own wallet and still would have thought they had the right address.  The issue wasn't that they didn't double check the address, the issue was that they didn't understand MtGox account funding system.

[Maged]

Only Mark Karpeles can resolve these issues when they come up. You need to somehow get escalated to him. He is the only person at MtGox who has the authority to manually credit bitcoins to an account, which is why everyone else is blowing you off even if they understand the situation.

[mirelon]

Still better support answers than random answers here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=231682

[socket]

The moral of this story is always double, nay triple check, the addresses you use for transactions.  The power of Bitcoin is a double edged sword.

In this case, any amount of re-checking wouldn't have helped.

The address used IS a MtGox address.  The user intended to send bitcoins to MtGox, and the user sent bitcoins to MtGox.  The issue was that the user didn't understand how a MtGox funding address works.  The user used exactly the address they intended to use, so double and triple checking wouldn't have helped.

I don't agree.  Just because it's a MtGox address doesn't mean it's the correct one for your account.  I'm pretty sure there is a reason why MtGox gives it's users a wallet on their account to use.  Double checking could have helped to avoid the situation if one checked to see if the address was a wallet address specific to your account.

But in this case the user didn't understand the difference between a funding address specific to their account, and an address that bitcoins were stored at prior to MtGox sending them to a withdrawal address in their own wallet.

They could have checked that address a million times on blockchain.info and in their own wallet and still would have thought they had the right address.  The issue wasn't that they didn't double check the address, the issue was that they didn't understand MtGox account funding system.

You seem be implying this scheme is somehow unique to MtGox (it's not).  When I say double and triple check I'm not just saying to insure syntactical correctness.  But, to also ensure you understand *exactly* which address you're sending Bitcoins to.

[Maged]

Only Mark Karpeles can resolve these issues when they come up. You need to somehow get escalated to him. He is the only person at MtGox who has the authority to manually credit bitcoins to an account, which is why everyone else is blowing you off even if they understand the situation.

To add onto this, you may have to refer to him as "the developer". I wish you the best of luck, since Mark has been pretty busy lately.

[Amitabh S]

The used address came from an earlier payment I made to him via MT Gox, but old addresses are still usable as I understand.

The 'old' address is not an address where MtGox pays from, but receives funds into.
I am very surprised that you or anyone did not realize this.
I mean, I can claim that I sent those funds.
Clearly, MtGox does not have any liability to return those bitcoins. It is 100% your mistake.

[DannyHamilton]

The used address came from an earlier payment I made to him via MT Gox, but old addresses are still usable as I understand.

The 'old' address is not an address where MtGox pays from, but receives funds into.
I am very surprised that you or anyone did not realize this.

This has already been discussed, and explained.  Why are you surprised that someone would not realize this?  There are many popular wallets that re-use the same address over and over for receiving/sending.  If that was the only wallet you were familiar with, it would be a reasonable assumption.

I mean, I can claim that I sent those funds.

Not legitimately you can't.  Can you provide a message signed with the private key that is associated with the address: 1GwPaTHi6s3XkzaFQe7DwFJNXfmUTbRkiQ

Clearly, MtGox does not have any liability to return those bitcoins. It is 100% your mistake.

Without discussing it with a lawyer well versed in the appropriate jurisdictions, I wouldn't even try to guess whether or not they have any liability to return them.

They do however have a moral obligation to return them, and it is a bad business decision to do otherwise.  They lose a lot of goodwill with their customer base by not doing "the right thing".