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Author Topic: *Conclusion* Faster block coins only get 60% of estimated reward  (Read 2637 times)
DeadEyeCool
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May 24, 2013, 01:13:51 AM
 #1

--------Conclusion-----------

The WDC community has concluded that it is common for you to receive 60% of what your pools "reward calculator" is displaying.

So if coinchoose is showing 180% profitability to BTC, it is in fact 60% of the 180%, which is 108% actual profitability to BTC.

This is common for all coins with a faster block time. This information will be added to the WDC forum, under a stickied FAQ thread within a day or so.

That is all.



---------Original post----------

The orphan rate on both coins is about 40% (slightly less on DGC, but still about the same). This means that you will be making 40% less of what you should be making, no matter what.


Coinchoose.com and most pool earnings calculators fail to include this fact, that's why you will notice that you are receiving far less coins than what the calcs say you should be getting.


Now, we can still have a coin with fast transactions, but I think most of the community fails to realize this, and think that they are getting "ripped off". Thus they give up on Worldcoin or DGC all together.


So realize this right now miners, 140% profitability for WorldCoin, actually means about 84% profitability. (60% of the 140% to Bitcoin).



Now with that knowledge, mine what you will mine, and let the market do it's thing. I still believe WorldCoin can be a good coin, but let's just get the facts right, and not put all of our trust on Coinchoose.com.
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Hydroponica
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May 24, 2013, 01:16:36 AM
 #2

Um, so far, on Big Verns pool, there has been 1 orphan, in the last 200 blocks...And my CGMiner, shows a ~2% reject rate...Where did your numbers come from  Huh

DeadEyeCool
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May 24, 2013, 01:19:38 AM
 #3

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the stale/orphan/reject rate isn't being correctly reported by the pool.


Have you noticed that you only get 55-60% of the estimated payout from his pool? Do the math.
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May 24, 2013, 01:19:45 AM
 #4

DGC rate on a pool: http://54.227.253.120:9500/static/

Pool rate: 79.1MH/s (6.3% DOA+orphan) Share difficulty: 0.254

Node uptime: 2.455 days Peers: 0 out, 0 in

Local rate: 78.6MH/s (13% DOA) Expected time to share: 0.00386 hours

Shares: 15386 total (151 orphaned, 1204 dead) Efficiency: 97.27%

We already proved the orphan thing is a myth.
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May 24, 2013, 01:23:13 AM
 #5

DGC rate on a pool: http://54.227.253.120:9500/static/

Pool rate: 79.1MH/s (6.3% DOA+orphan) Share difficulty: 0.254

Node uptime: 2.455 days Peers: 0 out, 0 in

Local rate: 78.6MH/s (13% DOA) Expected time to share: 0.00386 hours

Shares: 15386 total (151 orphaned, 1204 dead) Efficiency: 97.27%

We already proved the orphan thing is a myth.
Ohhhh, it's a p2pool.  Dude, you can't compare p2pool orphans with non-p2pool or solo mining orphans.  Completely different things!

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Hydroponica
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May 24, 2013, 01:26:06 AM
 #6

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the stale/orphan/reject rate isn't being correctly reported by the pool.


Have you noticed that you only get 55-60% of the estimated payout from his pool? Do the math.

The orpan blocks, have a little line through them. And yes, for the first little while, I did only get about 55-60% payouts, but, because I can read, and understand how the PPLNS payout system works, I stuck with it, and now I get 90-95% of the estimated coins/day...Knowledge is power

DeadEyeCool
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May 24, 2013, 01:27:44 AM
 #7

I'm trying to put together why two of the best pools for WDC are only paying out 55-60% of what the projected earnings should be.

Erundook had an interesting point in this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206904.msg2248624#msg2248624

so 40% are stale/orphans?
yep. some of them are your shares, and some are pool's blocks. i am working on pool software update to minimize the latter. should be in production in a day or two.


and so did Maged in this thread

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=211535.msg2218876#msg2218876


Yes, but like most things in life, an important balance between too much and too little exists. Shorter block times make it harder for <50% attacks to succeed, true, but by increasing the number of orphans, it decreases the effective hash rate of the network, making a >50% attack potentially much easier. Bitcoin considers the potential risks of a successful >50% attack to be very high, so Satoshi chose a long block time.
This seems like mathematical nonsense, please prove to me that  for example if there are 4 times more chain splits with 1/4 the block time, that there are less iterations to arrive at consensus within the same duration. I bet you can't, because the increase in chain splits is trivial compared to the increase in blocks.

LTC has certainly proven for a long time that a shorter than 10min block target is perfectly viable.
Of course a block time shorter than 10 minutes is perfectly viable! I never said that it wasn't. My point was that there exists a point where the orphan rate caused by a shorter block time ends up outweighing the benefits of a shorter block time. This starts to matter earlier than you may think because an orphan rate of just a few percent would be enough to encourage miners to centralize. However, ignoring that, here's an extrapolation of the reduction in effective hash rate as a network the size of Bitcoin reduces block time (the Bitcoin network currently sees about a 1% orphan rate):

Blocktime in seconds Reduction in effective hashrate
6001%
3002%
1504%
758%
37.516%
18.7532%
9.37564%

As you can see, two and a half minutes per block isn't actually all that bad in the reduction of effective hashrate, but I wouldn't want to go much lower than that.



I think these orphans/stale/rejects w/e, basically DOA pools shares, are going unseen. But they are happening, and they effectively reduce the overall network hashrate, and the hashrate of each miner by about 40%.
DeadEyeCool
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May 24, 2013, 01:28:36 AM
 #8

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the stale/orphan/reject rate isn't being correctly reported by the pool.


Have you noticed that you only get 55-60% of the estimated payout from his pool? Do the math.

The orpan blocks, have a little line through them. And yes, for the first little while, I did only get about 55-60% payouts, but, because I can read, and understand how the PPLNS payout system works, I stuck with it, and now I get 90-95% of the estimated coins/day...Knowledge is power


This isn't a PPLNS issue, I have been on BigVern's pool since it launched, and was still missing 40% of my payouts.
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May 24, 2013, 01:30:20 AM
 #9

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the stale/orphan/reject rate isn't being correctly reported by the pool.


Have you noticed that you only get 55-60% of the estimated payout from his pool? Do the math.

The orpan blocks, have a little line through them. And yes, for the first little while, I did only get about 55-60% payouts, but, because I can read, and understand how the PPLNS payout system works, I stuck with it, and now I get 90-95% of the estimated coins/day...Knowledge is power


This isn't a PPLNS issue, I have been on BigVern's pool since it launched, and was still missing 40% of my payouts.

Don't know what to tell you, I get around what I should be getting. Do you have a slow hashrate? Some of those blocks solve pretty quickly, it's common for slower miners, to not be fast enough to submit a share, in a really fast round.
If you look at the block stats, and you see a lot of confirmed blocks, with no reward listed for you, than there's your issue. If that's the case, a smaller, slower pool, would be better for you

DeadEyeCool
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May 24, 2013, 01:34:07 AM
 #10

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the stale/orphan/reject rate isn't being correctly reported by the pool.


Have you noticed that you only get 55-60% of the estimated payout from his pool? Do the math.

The orpan blocks, have a little line through them. And yes, for the first little while, I did only get about 55-60% payouts, but, because I can read, and understand how the PPLNS payout system works, I stuck with it, and now I get 90-95% of the estimated coins/day...Knowledge is power


This isn't a PPLNS issue, I have been on BigVern's pool since it launched, and was still missing 40% of my payouts.

Don't know what to tell you, I get around what I should be getting. Do you have a slow hashrate? Some of those blocks solve pretty quickly, it's common for slower miners, to not be fast enough to submit a share, in a really fast round.
If you look at the block stats, and you see a lot of confirmed blocks, with no reward listed for you, than there's your issue. If that's the case, a smaller, slower pool, would be better for you


I hash at about 1.2, 1.3 Mhash.

All of my confirmed blocks on Vern's pool have payouts. I just jumped on a pool that was about 200 total Mhash, and the results were the same.
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May 24, 2013, 01:38:35 AM
 #11

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the stale/orphan/reject rate isn't being correctly reported by the pool.


Have you noticed that you only get 55-60% of the estimated payout from his pool? Do the math.

The orpan blocks, have a little line through them. And yes, for the first little while, I did only get about 55-60% payouts, but, because I can read, and understand how the PPLNS payout system works, I stuck with it, and now I get 90-95% of the estimated coins/day...Knowledge is power


This isn't a PPLNS issue, I have been on BigVern's pool since it launched, and was still missing 40% of my payouts.

Don't know what to tell you, I get around what I should be getting. Do you have a slow hashrate? Some of those blocks solve pretty quickly, it's common for slower miners, to not be fast enough to submit a share, in a really fast round.
If you look at the block stats, and you see a lot of confirmed blocks, with no reward listed for you, than there's your issue. If that's the case, a smaller, slower pool, would be better for you


I hash at about 1.2, 1.3 Mhash.

All of my confirmed blocks on Vern's pool have payouts. I just jumped on a pool that was about 200 total Mhash, and the results were the same.

Dunno then. Obviously, this isn't a global problem, or this thread would be full of hundreds of replies, and global hashrate would drop.

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May 24, 2013, 01:41:03 AM
 #12

I'm not the only one, look at this thread on BigVern's WDC Pool Forum:


http://forum.litebonk.com/index.php?topic=604.0
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May 24, 2013, 01:41:34 AM
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I've always preferred the p2pool's when available.  I have one for DGC that has been up more or less continuously since the early days of the coin:

http://54.227.253.120:9500/static/

I hear Vern's pools are great but my luck, overall, has been hit and miss with the push pools
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May 24, 2013, 01:44:42 AM
 #14

Could this possibly be a problem with these settings i have in cgminer?

-s 1 -E 1 -q 0



Huh
Hydroponica
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May 24, 2013, 01:46:21 AM
 #15

Could this possibly be a problem with these settings i have in cgminer?

-s 1 -E 1 -q 0



Huh

Could be. I don't have those settings in my bat file. Not even sure what those settings do, tbh.

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May 24, 2013, 01:47:51 AM
 #16

I've always preferred the p2pool's when available.  I have one for DGC that has been up more or less continuously since the early days of the coin:

http://54.227.253.120:9500/static/

I hear Vern's pools are great but my luck, overall, has been hit and miss with the push pools
See, it was the opposite for me. I ran into problems, of not getting paid at all, because my slower miner, wasn't able to submit shares quick enough, to the P2Pools. Maybe now that I've upgraded to 1100 KH/sec, I won't have that problem anymore...

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May 24, 2013, 01:57:52 AM
 #17

interesting, i just grabbed this line from one of the P2Pools forum post


*Note: If you are having payout issues, consider running your miners WITHOUT any expiry, queue or share difficulty tweaks at the end of your wallets.



i'll have to try this and test some more.


anyways thanks for the responses, yall can let this one die for now.
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May 24, 2013, 02:09:36 AM
 #18

I had the same issue with WDC I used one of the stratum pools with lots of hash power and got around 30% stales, same with p2pool, I then joined a pool with a server close to my geographic location and stales are below 1% also i'm getting more coins (with difficulty taken into account) in addition, make sure you lower the intensity on your cards, I 18 seems to work great for my 7950's as well as 6950's,
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May 24, 2013, 02:17:47 AM
 #19

coinchoose.com is a scam, they co-operate with scam coins to cheat the newbie  Angry

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May 24, 2013, 02:24:40 AM
 #20

coinchoose.com is a scam, they co-operate with scam coins to cheat the newbie  Angry

I'm going to let someone else have this one.
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