Bitcoin Austrian Economic Study Group

[kiba]

No, I asserted it. Big difference.

While I would love to discuss this with you, this is not the thread to do it.(Not to mention, a hint of emotional response which tell me that there's merit!)

So, start your own damn thread.

[Babylon]

I maintain that without the legal fiction of a company they could not.  Companies are not real things, they are legal fictions.

They externalize cost, through government, without government they could not function more efficiently.

If you've ever been involved in a co-op, they tend to operate extremely inefficiently.

If you're arguing that corporations as we know them would not exist without government, I completely agree with you. Subsidized security is the best thing the state has to offer the mega corporation. The more geographically dispersed resources you have, the more benefit you gain from having the state protect those resources, versus if you had to explicitly pay to have them protected. That said, if there were no state, I don't think the world would turn into an anarcho-socialist commune. I think you would see the large corporations dissolve or break up into smaller businesses, some of which might be run by the workers.

Babylon, gene...

It seemed earlier like you guys were arguing for the state, now it seems like you're arguing against it, and for something like anarcho-socialism. If that is the case, why are we arguing? We both agree that society would be better served without a state. The only difference is that you think the best society is one where there is no private ownership of property (MoP), whereas we do. If you try to enforce your opinion on how society should form lacking a state, how are you acting any differently than the state itself? Lacking states, there will be more than enough room in this world for all sorts of different voluntary organizations of society.

Different sorts of Anarchists often seem to be arguing for a state when debating since we have different ideas as to what constitutes bad power. 

The main reason that, IMO, Capitalist and Socialist anarchists need to keep debating is that I doubt that corporations would simply wither away if the framework of government were removed.  Yes, a Democratic government is far from an ideal solution, and yes the corporations do capture it and use it to enrich themselves.  However it is still preferable to the corporations ruling directly, which is what will happen if they are left in possession of all the resources that they currently possess without the government to keep them in line.

I have no problem with market anarchists, in fact I am one, as are many of you who label yourself capitalist, but as long as there is support for ownership of capital determining production, rather than actual use of production determining production then there is support for government.

[kiba]

I have no problem with market anarchists, in fact I am one, as are many of you who label yourself capitalist, but as long as there is support for ownership of capital determining production, rather than actual use of production determining production then there is support for government.

Great, but please start your own thread.

[gene]

[...] but as long as there is support for ownership of capital determining production, rather than actual use of production determining production then there is support for government.

This concisely encapsulates the essence what I see as the fundamental contradiction in "libertarianism," which I have never seen addressed by the Auburn crowd.

[kiba]

[...] but as long as there is support for ownership of capital determining production, rather than actual use of production determining production then there is support for government.

This concisely encapsulates the essence what I see as the fundamental contradiction in "libertarianism," which I have never seen addressed by the Auburn crowd.

This is still offtopic. Please start your own thread.

[BitterTea]

I've started a new thread for discussing the private ownership of capital.

[The Script]

So, back to the Austrian economics study group....     If anyone is still paying attention to this thread and is still interested I would recommend either "The Case Against the Fed" by Murray Rothbard or "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlett.  I realize these are "introductory" books and not full-fledged Austrian classics, but as the previous attempt aimed too high perhaps this is the best way to start.  These books are not too long nor very heavy reading and yet have excellent applicable concepts.  Let me know if anyone is on board with this.

[praxeologist]

I still suggest Lessons for a Young Economist, now available in HTML too here. I really think that it is better to learn about praxeology first and start small before really tackling the problems we have today. Certain philosophical doctrines are so dominant today that people are unable to even consider that we could get genuine scientific knowledge from the social sciences, so I think it goes a long way to see why what we're doing is scientific and not just mere opinion or wordplay.

[MoonShadow]

I've already suggested even simplier, by recommending Whatever Happened to Penny Candy from the Uncle Eric series, which is also based on praxeology, but no one would bite.

[markm]

The form of biting implemented in browsers by clicking on the displayed string doesn't seem to work, which seems to detract from the biteableness of the referred text.

My browser did however bite on an earlier recommendation but I have not yet gotten to the thusly created browser-tab to actualy digest bitten-off tabful of data.

-MarkM- (And it's the one claiming to be html I 'bat', not pdf or suchlike (those would have lower priority for technical reasons.)

(Thinking of html versus other formats reminds me Bucky Fuller's "Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth" is html. What the heck brand of economics if any would that fall into? Un-austrian? Somewhat austrian? Anti-austrian? Not-economics? Pseudo-economics? Etc...)

(Yes I know, I too failed to make my mention biteable. What for would a link to the BFI be wanted here if e.g. it is totally alien to all things austrian?)

[The Script]

I would be fine with "Whatever Happened to Penny Candy".  I'm just very poor so was trying to find books I knew were free online in PDF form.  However, it is possible my local library would have a copy I can check out.  Let's do it.  I keep getting more and more opportunities to argue with Keynsianists and Statists.  I need to fill in the holes in my Austrian education.  I will find a copy somewhere I can read.  We can discuss it focusing on praxeology and then move on to something a little more complicated.  Let's DO this.  Who's in?

[kiba]

I would be fine with "Whatever Happened to Penny Candy".  I'm just very poor so was trying to find books I knew were free online in PDF form. 

You don't need to worry about finding Austrian economic books because mises.org offered some of the largest selection of free economic books.

[MoonShadow]

If the library doesn't have it, request it through inter-library loan.

[austinlorenz]

http://www.coordinationproblem.org/2010/07/why-graduate-students-not-only-should-but-must-read-rothbards-man-economy-and-state.html

When I teach my PhD course in the Austrian Theory of the Market Process I assign four required books that in my opinion students must master to make a contribution to the this literature --- Mises, Human Action; Hayek, Individualism and Economic Order; Kirzner, Competition and Entrepreneurship; and Rothbard, Man, Economy and State.

[marcus_of_augustus]

F. Hayek's "Road to Serfdom" is a bit of a foundation stone to get one started with.

[Axel]

Its a very good idea to have group of bit coiners where we can discuss with each other . I think this forum is the best to share our ideas in shape of groups as bit coiners . Are you ready for it ?

[hazek]

How do you propose this group should work?

I have some ideas regarding the ideas of "free banking" of Selgin and White and the problems bitcoin would have once it reaches its "coin" limit, and how to solve this problem.

LOL look who I found. You are the same hugolp as on ronpaulforums right? I guess it's true what they say about great minds and all that..


Damn it, a day should have more hours cause now I have to get up to speed on this thread and join in

[BitterTea]

I just bought Tom Wood's Rollback. I read the first couple of chapters so far and it is quite excellent.

I was sold after watching this video.

[The Script]

I just bought Tom Wood's Rollback. I read the first couple of chapters so far and it is quite excellent.

I was sold after watching this video.

Ha, nice.  My Austrian economics group is reading this book in the next two weeks.  I'm looking forward to it.