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Author Topic: $257 Million: Filecoin Breaks All-Time Record for ICO Funding  (Read 1758 times)
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September 08, 2017, 07:02:27 PM
 #21

I'm highly interested in this one.  I'm kind of unimpressed with Storj as a farmer.  I can't wait to see what they produce as a product and what they offer farmers.  
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September 08, 2017, 07:15:46 PM
 #22

I always wonder why people need a lot of money for ICO. even without the chinese ban, what you think that they will do with our $257 million? Does this project really need a big amount of money to run? I do not think so. There are many small ICO but they can still successful

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September 09, 2017, 12:17:34 AM
Last edit: September 09, 2017, 11:03:37 PM by Hyperme.sh
 #23

The equity securities regulation issues are a mess. For example this article will give you some idea how difficult it is to comply given international investors combined with US investors, and reporting requirements once it grows, and then think of the mess it will be to actually ever go IPO or reach a capital gain on your shares:

https://www.paulhastings.com/publications-items/details/?id=9c59e969-2334-6428-811c-ff00004cbded

If we go that route, we’ll likely end up in some regulatory or lawsuit “purgatory” (i.e. gridlock clusterfuck) down the line. It is a huge mess that we need to avoid.

I've also edited the following post to make it clear that I do not think the crowd equity paradigms are without problems:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2146838.msg21616747#msg21616747

I’m leaning away from equity as viable funding for decentralized ledger development.

Whereas, decentralized groups could raise their own equity for their own companies that develop (e.g. revenue generating apps) for a decentralized ledger ecosystem. Because they can form a small group selling to investors in one country.

I realize some others are thinking about obfuscations such as governance models like Dash’s scammy issuance of tokens to itself and then voting by themselves to pay themselves. I think that is way off target. The decentralized ledger (and its tokens) must be unencumbered from securities regulation. Over the long-term, all encumbered decentralized ledger tokens will be destroyed by regulatory action. They are not anti-fragile.

Startups who embark on the ICO journey are creating automated value transfer systems that operate across borders with no KYC. These systems, once turned on, cannot be turned off or controlled. But the startups will continue to be expected to maintain them.

This is not easy, technically or legally. For this reason, the SAFT is clearly not anything near a cure-all for the compliance issues an ICO startup will later face, whether in the field of securities regulation or otherwise.

An interview about SAFT explains some of the issues, but do realize I disagree that the SAFT is a valid solution.
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September 09, 2017, 01:14:00 AM
 #24

Are the bans and warnings on ICOs gravely serious? If it is, then why are the known venture capitalists like Sequoia Capital and Andreessen Horowitz still investing millions in ICOs?

Is the Chinese, Russian, US governments and others giving these warnings because they are scared people can fund themselves without their permission and authority?

You seem to habitually fail to pay attention to important details.

That ICO began on August 10, and only $3 million was raised in past 3 days since ICO bad news.


…as accredited investors swamped the CoinList website

It is legal ICO issuance with proper disclosures and was sold only to accredited investors. It is not these scammy ICOs we’ve been seeing that are not correctly issued under appropriate exemption from registration.

More importantly, even legal token issuance will mean those tokens are restricted securities that can only be sold on regulated exchanges. They can’t be traded decentralized and thus are not a cryptocurrency.

More details:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2146838.msg21616747#msg21616747
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2156492.msg21615589#msg21615589

Yes, you are right! So is this the future of ICOs? Are accredited investors the only people allowed to invest money in the ICO before listing them in an exchange? Then why do they need a token? Why not follow the traditional way of funding a project?

Unless the big boys want to control the whole scam funding model to scam us.

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September 09, 2017, 10:17:03 AM
 #25

There are already three projects doing the same or similar thing: Siacoin, Storj and Maidsafe.

I guess Filecoin investors never of heard of them or don't think much of them.
I wasn't aware of that thanks for informing me i was afraid to invest in this ico because most according to me are considered scam because they simply fill up 50 pages and raise millions. About this project now I'm surely gonna hold it for long term siacoin is really slow but will recover slowly in the coming days or maybe weeks
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September 09, 2017, 02:06:17 PM
 #26

never hear about that ICO before and this ICO world is crazy.

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September 09, 2017, 02:40:15 PM
 #27

wow i just see this thread and the amount raised is unbelievable

what  the advantages that this ICO offered ? 
and can someone share the official website for Filecoin ?

filecoin.io, you can find whitepaper on the front page.
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September 09, 2017, 03:05:30 PM
 #28

I feel bad for Filecoin investors. They probability just dont understand how much money 257 Million is. This is a good example how you can influence others with good marketing.
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September 09, 2017, 03:57:09 PM
 #29

Not serious at all, Russia just came out with support, China ban is temporary. Space will hit $1T+ Market Cap next year.

You’re lying.

All these regulators in all the major nations will eventually force ICOs into regulated (or exempted) securities issuance, similar to Filecoin’s issuance. But the problem with that, is that the tokens issued as securities are then not freely tradeable.

All of those who are trading ICO-issued tokens now, are committing illegal trading. Proof-of-work issued tokens are not securities and thus not illegal to trade (this does not include scam issuance via instamines and sneaky/stealth mines).

Clawbacks, prosecutions, fines, and jail time are coming. Mark my word.

Seriously folks. Stop incriminating yourselves. Clean up your act now, so maybe the regulators will be lenient on you because at least you reformed yourself.

If you think i'm lying than you clearly have no understanding of this space and what it is. Sure, States will attempt to regulate but this will fail over time and those that don't will thrive. There are no clawbacks with a blockchain, pandoras box has been opened.
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September 09, 2017, 04:02:56 PM
 #30

This happening also popped up in my newsfeed in my browser and I had no words when I read it. The majority of the sale was bought out by big time investors and the ICO was exclusively available only for private investors. No wonder it made that much because of what they bring into the field.
It's going to be real cheap, cloud storage. No more high priced services like Dropbox and instead everyone will be able to trade coins in return for storage space which is a great idea. I can only see good going to a great height because of the well thought ideas.
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September 09, 2017, 05:34:56 PM
 #31

how different is filecoin to stoj and maidsafe? are they not oing exactly the same thing?
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September 09, 2017, 09:01:24 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2017, 12:15:44 PM by Hyperme.sh
 #32

I have been warning everyone that ICO-issued tokens (even if legally issued) can’t be traded or used as a cryptocurrency, because as securities they must only be traded on regulated exchanges.

If the regulators were to allow ICO-issued tokens to trade freely (i.e. as a cryptocurrency), then they will have lost control over rampant, fraudulent speculative tragedy-of-the-commons mania.

Thus the SAFTs that were sold in the Filecoin ICO encumber the Filecoin tokes as securities. Thus the Filecoin tokens are useless and can’t be actually used decentralized (unless hypothetically the common enterprise ceases as explained below).

Quoted from the 1933 Securities Act:

Any security given or delivered with, or as a bonus on account of, any purchase of securities or any other thing, shall be conclusively presumed to constitute a part of the subject of such purchase and to have been offered and sold for value. The issue or transfer of a right or privilege, when originally issued or transferred with a security, giving the holder of such security the right to convert such security into another security of the same issuer or of another person, or giving a right to subscribe to another security of the same issuer or of another person, which right cannot be exercised until some future date, shall not be deemed to be an offer or sale of such other security; but the issue or transfer of such other security upon the exercise of such right of conversion or subscription shall be deemed a sale of such other security.

Here are the narly details from an attorney:

No problem, right?

Not quite.

The answer to this question is a tiny bit more complicated and invokes a genuine piece of regulatory uncertainty.

The question here is whether a token issued pursuant to the terms of a security/investment contract (i.e. the SAFT) is itself also an investment contract. (Which, to this week’s SAFT offering’s credit, is briefly acknowledged in the PPM).

This question currently has no answer. If our hypothetical generic token isn’t a security, a lot of problems go away from a securities law perspective. But if it *is,* token issuance – SAFT or no SAFT – gets complicated, and fast.

There are two rules which are involved here. The first is Rule 230.502(d)(vii),which states

Quote
   (d) Limitations on resale. Except as provided in §230.504(b)(1), securities acquired in a transaction under Regulation D shall have the status of securities acquired in a transaction under section 4(a)(2) of the Act and cannot be resold without registration under the Act or an exemption therefrom. [etc.]

And the second, to which the SEC made reference in its DAO paper as well, is Section 5 of the Securities Act, which states

Quote
   Unless a registration statement is in effect as to a security, it shall be unlawful for any person, directly or indirectly

    (1) to make any use of any means or instruments of transportation or communication in interstate commerce [note: including the Interweb] or of the mails to sell such security through the use or medium of any prospectus or otherwise [note: presumably this encompasses half-baked crypto whitepapers], or

    (2) to carry or cause to be carried through the mails or in interstate commerce, by any means or instruments of transportation, any such security for sale or for delivery after sale.

These are non-trivial continuing compliance obligations which are of fundamental relevance for cryptocurrencies – keeping in mind that a blockchain is traditionally the back-end of a fully automatic system designed to facilitate the instantaneous peer-to-peer transfer of digital property (meaning it’s likely to be classed as “interstate commerce”).

(Edit: with the SAFT whitepaper now released, some of my former comments below may be inappropriate)

Damn right the SAFT is an investment contract where the expectation-of-profit is on the Filecoin tokens that will be issued to SAFT holders.

The Filecoin offering might be a legalese attempt to cheat. I’ve read this isn’t the first time that AngelList got themselves in trouble with the SEC.

Y Combinator’s SAFE concept (on which SAFT was modeled) doesn’t issue the participants some non-security. The SAFT is an attempt fool investors into thinking that it is on the same legal footing as the SAFE, but it is not.

AngelList can get away with this because they sold only to accredited investors and they buried a caveat in their prospectus, but the Filecoin tokens will never be legal to sell to investors decentralized until they’re registered (with sufficiently holding period of at least 3 years before resold the first time), or hypothetically until those tokens stop being securities because there is no longer an investment contract under the Howey test, which could be when the investors no longer rely on a (pooled if “horizontal commonality” is the assumed definition of a) common enterprise for their profit expectation or presumably in the cases where the tokens are spent on bona fide goods or services rather than sold to an investor (but the same tokens in theory become securities again if sold to an investor where the investors’ profit expectation relies on a said common enterprise).

In particular, Benet drew a distinction between offering a coin for the purposes of raising money and using it as a tool for running a useful service.

My analysis about “use value” tokens being irrelevant to the issues that the Howey Test looks at, agrees with the attorney I am quoting here.

It doesn’t matter that the SAFTs can be speculated on and that the separate Filecoin tokens have some utility other than as speculations, the Howey Test only requires that the investors have an expectation-of-profit in a common enterprise managed by the others (typically the issuer), and the security is the investment contract certificate that records who receives the gains. Any obfuscations which attempt to circumvent the intent of the law, which is that securities must always be registered and trade on registered examples, are invalid under the Howey Test. There is no way to convert a security into a non-security (except as aforementioned the common enterprise ceases), because that would circumvent the entire point of the law. The investors are not investing in SAFTs but in the Filecoin tokens they receive for the SAFTs. Without the Filecoin tokens, the SAFTs are worthless. The Howey Test states it will always look at the economic reality and ignore any tricks that attempt to obfuscate the economic reality.

It is difficult to divorce the money and exchange component from “utility tokens,” as app-coins are sometimes called, particularly in the context of a speculative ICO where the token allocation is pre-sold to persons who could not possibly consume them all and are purchasing the coins with the expectation of profit on re-sale.



For this reason, my personal view is that most ICOs – even the “utility coins” – are unlikely to escape regulation by jurisdiction-appropriate rules regarding public offerings, financial promotions and unfair trade practices. I have held this view since 2014 but then again I’m pretty conservative.

If the SEC announces that AngelList’s prospectus is misleading and orders it to be refunded, that could have another big hit on expectations in our crypto ecosystem. More “bad news” is coming eventually.

If this happens, although the SEC will stay in the loop, the really exciting action will be in the domain of the tort lawyers and federal and state prosecutors working in tandem with the FTC. See, e.g., the recent case of Josh Garza and GAW Miners (which involved fraudulent misrepresentations relating in part to a cryptocurrency called Paycoin). Although in the civil enforcement action the SEC got a $12 million default judgment, the U.S. Attorney got a guilty plea for one good, old-fashioned count of wire fraud. No Securities Act required.

Note that if this interpretation is adopted, some state laws cast a much wider net to penalize participants than Section 5 of the Securities Act of 1933 does.

tl;dr

In the wake of the SEC’s paper last week, and at all points before it, the blockchain industry’s thinking has over-emphasized complying with regulations that govern the initial issuance of tokens, and has neglected to address the impact of all of the regulations that apply on a continuing basis.

Trading in ICO-issued tokens is encumbering YOU with potential long-tail legal woes that come at you from many different regulatory bodies, statutes, and nations. It is jurisdictional hell. Stay away from this!

I think that the next max cap can be COMSA ICO. Not just because I advertise it at my signature…

Promoting ICOs makes you an affiliate. Which means you have severe fines and even jail time awaiting you in the future.

You may be in a some 2nd or 3rd world country and think you are out-of-reach of such regulatory crackdown. But those G20 can still find a way to take your assets and arrest you. That is if you use an international wires, travel internationally, etc.. They may also in the future pressure your government to acquiesce to enforcement as the USA has achieved with FATCA worldwide.

EDIT: since writing this post, I have recently analysed the securities implications in more detail.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal advice.
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September 09, 2017, 10:37:21 PM
 #33

Government can't stop the development of blockchains , is $257 million  a new record for ico now ?Congratulations to Filecoin.
With that amount of money gathered from their ICO, they should have updates posted for it within days of launching the coin. There is so much things that someone can do with that much money, 257 million dollars can be used to hire a huge amount of developers that can build the project and expand it without the money in the budget being affected by it. They wouldn’t even need a million dollars to get people interested in working with them, so it should be interesting to see how much longer they will wait till they release something ground-breaking and disrupt virtual currencies.

 
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September 09, 2017, 10:42:19 PM
Last edit: September 10, 2017, 01:21:15 AM by Hyperme.sh
 #34

Government can't stop the development of blockchains , is $257 million  a new record for ico now ?Congratulations to Filecoin.

With that amount of money gathered from their ICO, they should have updates posted for it within days of launching the coin. There is so much things that someone can do with that much money, 257 million dollars can be used to hire a huge amount of developers that can build the project and expand it without the money in the budget being affected by it. They wouldn’t even need a million dollars to get people interested in working with them, so it should be interesting to see how much longer they will wait till they release something ground-breaking and disrupt virtual currencies.

You know of course that most (or a very significant portion) of the money ends up in the pockets for those who organized this, not in R&D.

The tragedy-of-the-commons in fundraising, means that it will always be a slush fund for the crocodiles and bureaucracy.

It’s a tragedy-of-the-commons no matter if it is regulated or unregulated. The top-down control — required to enforce regulation to prevent South Seas Bubbles wherein people are not dumb to invest in worthless shit — enables crocodiles to take most of the fundraising for themselves.

ICOs are the antithesis of decentralized. They’re the antithesis of what some of us ideologically dedicated folks want to achieve.

What do they need a quarter billion dollars for again ?

Not for R&D.
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September 09, 2017, 11:52:28 PM
Last edit: September 10, 2017, 12:18:53 AM by samedison_22
 #35

If you're 25 now and invested in this. Good luck getting a 10X ROI or nothing at all by the time you have a grandson.  Grin
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September 10, 2017, 01:02:00 AM
 #36

Record breaking Crypto-Pyramid Scheme ?
Shocked  Cheesy

What do they need a quarter billion dollars for again ?

FUD first & ask questions later™
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September 10, 2017, 03:27:16 AM
 #37

A quick check on the Internet shows that Dropbox ( the company) was valued at 10 Billion dollars in 2014.  $250 million for a startup competing in that space doesn't seem totally out of line, to me.
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September 10, 2017, 05:27:42 AM
 #38

A quick check on the Internet shows that Dropbox ( the company) was valued at 10 Billion dollars in 2014.  $250 million for a startup competing in that space doesn't seem totally out of line, to me.

That is fucking retarded fail.

Quote
Bitcoin    $66,998,988,963    $4046.85    

https://coinmarketcap.com/

Amount from the Bitcoin ICO ?

0 Dollars and 0 cents.  Roll Eyes

FUD first & ask questions later™
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September 10, 2017, 10:09:38 AM
 #39

Such ICO's and such funds says one only - many people wanting to catch fish in troubled waters. For what project need s such budget I don't understand. Real company with real product collect much smaller funds and do own product.
Imho soon big fund raising will be equal scam or projects from which to stay away
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September 10, 2017, 02:04:48 PM
 #40

Exactly.. why do they need a quarter billion dollars ?

FUD first & ask questions later™
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