Bitcoin is a better store of value than Gold on the long term

[telemaco]

Ok i am taking a nerdish aproach to this. What about not so long future.
Look at these companies:



http://www.planetaryresources.com/

Asteroids are the best real estate in the Solar System.

Despite their celestial age, our understanding of asteroids is still in its infancy. However, the more we learn about them, the more enticing destinations they become.

Asteroids are primordial material left over from the formation of the Solar System. They are scattered throughout it: some pass close to the Sun, and others are found out beyond the orbit of Neptune. A vast majority have been collected by Jupiter’s gravity into a belt between it and Mars – an area known as the Main Belt. As it turns out, we have been discovering thousands of asteroids that do not belong to the Main Belt, but instead pass near Earth’s orbit – nearly 9,000 to date, with almost a thousand more discovered every year.

Many of these near-Earth asteroids are easily accessible from Earth. And many contain enormous quantities of accessible resources.

AN INCREDIBLE RESOURCE
There are over 1,500 asteroids that are as easy to get to as the surface of the Moon. They are also in Earth-like orbits with small gravity fields, making them easier to approach and depart.

Asteroid resources have some unique characteristics that make them especially attractive. Unlike Earth, where heavier metals are close to the core, metals in asteroids are distributed throughout their body, making them easier to extract.

Asteroids contain valuable and useful materials like iron, nickel, water, and rare platinum group metals, often in significantly higher concentration than found in mines on Earth.

We are only just beginning to realize the incredible potential of asteroids. The first encounter of a spacecraft with an asteroid was in 1991, as the Galileo spacecraft flew by the 951 Gaspra asteroid on its way to Jupiter. Our knowledge of these celestial neighbors has been revolutionized by a small set of US and international missions carried out since that time. With each visit or fly-by, the science on asteroids has been rewritten.

or Nasa plans to capture an asteroid



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/130410-asteroid-recovery-nasa-space-budget-science/


We might not see it or yes if you are young enough, but maybe in 20 years there might be small asteroid mining companies around

I say that bitcoin is even better than gold. One satellite filled with gold and the gold economy will face a huge devaluation or maybe shocked if one country manages to get one and the rest of the countries get a lesser percentage of gold as a result... With Bitcoin this cannot happen

[ElectricMucus]

Quantum Computers are to Bitcoins as Asteroid mining is to Gold.

The former already exists.
But both are so far from having practical impact that it is irrelevant to consider the implications.

[telemaco]

Quantum Computers are to Bitcoins as Asteroid mining is to Gold.

The former already exists.

and difficulty increase does not work for Quantum Computers?
Bitcoin has been designed to release a specific number of new bitcoins every specific timeframe.

What would happen with the gold store value if suddenly China (example) comes with an asteroid with 5000 tons of gold (just an example i am not aware of quantities of gold around and what would impact what)

[ElectricMucus]

Quantum Computers are to Bitcoins as Asteroid mining is to Gold.

The former already exists.

and difficulty increase does not work for Quantum Computers?

Bingo. They are either useless for hashing or just put out the right nonce for any single hash.

[ElectricMucus]

What would happen with the gold store value if suddenly China (example) comes with an asteroid with 5000 tons of gold (just an example i am not aware of quantities of gold around and what would impact what)

If we are at this capability it is likely we are at the brink of space colonization, so demand would rise proportionally.

[Zaih]

Interesting. Never really thought as far as that. Maybe gold isn't as rare as valuable as we think it is.

Bitcoin all the way, eh

[fitty]

Quantum Computers are to Bitcoins as Asteroid mining is to Gold.

The former already exists.

and difficulty increase does not work for Quantum Computers?

Bingo. They are either useless for hashing or just put out the right nonce for any single hash.

Banks face the same issues with quantum computing. Shit every "secure" SSL site on the internet. In terms of what quantum computer will screw up, Bitcoin is probably fairly low on the "OMFG" list.

Bitcoin can also be changed/altered/upgraded with different forms of cryptography.  McEliece cryptosystem was designed in 1978 and thought to be a possible post-quantum cryptography. While it might not be clear how Bitcoin will handle it, I have no doubt there will be solutions that can be implemented.

In terms of quantum computers being a threat to Bitcoin, I'd say very very very unlikely.

[hl5460]

Gold has been mined out steadily year over year. We know gold is scarce and we also know there is more in the ground.
No one is sure about the gold supply. But every bitcoiners know the supply of BTC.

[ElectricMucus]

Gold has been mined out steadily year over year. We know gold is scarce and we also know there is more in the ground.
No one is sure about the gold supply. But every bitcoiners know the supply of BTC.

Yes and no but it is the reason for the gold crunch this month.
You see gold, like every resource follows the Hubbert Curve. Peak gold was projected to be some time around 2020. Now what happened was that gold futures piled up to such an extent that it became questionable if it really is this early, not later. So speculative interest coming form the assumption of declining supply rates after that date went away and the price plummeted. Of course gold-bugs will tell you that was because market manipulation or "fake" gold futures for gold which isn't really there, but we should know better

But this does not mean that peak gold won't happen within the next decades so the gold price will not deteriorate completely.

[bb999]

You could also use the nano gold argument instead of the asteroid gold argument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloidal_gold

The counterpoint to this is that gold has thousands of years of cultural history as a store of wealth and medium of exchange.  Bitcoin has a long way to go to get that kind of widespread following.  Over a long enough time horizon anything is possible but just because a trend may be "inevitable" does not mean it will occur immediately.

[afbitcoins]

Gold has been mined out steadily year over year. We know gold is scarce and we also know there is more in the ground.
No one is sure about the gold supply. But every bitcoiners know the supply of BTC.

Yes and no but it is the reason for the gold crunch this month.
You see gold, like every resource follows the Hubbert Curve. Peak gold was projected to be some time around 2020. Now what happened was that gold futures piled up to such an extent that it became questionable if it really is this early, not later. So speculative interest coming form the assumption of declining supply rates after that date went away and the price plummeted. Of course gold-bugs will tell you that was because market manipulation or "fake" gold futures for gold which isn't really there, but we should know better

But this does not mean that peak gold won't happen within the next decades so the gold price will not deteriorate completely.

That argument would only hold water if gold was a commodity that gets used up, like oil. However gold is not really a commodity, it is primarily really money, which is why central banks hold it. Almost all the gold ever dug up is still available to go to market, therefore there is a huge potential supply of it that far outweighs any new gold coming to market from mines. The laws of supply and demand should ensure that when more demand is there then the price goes up accordingly.

Where it all goes wrong is in fact what gold bugs will correctly tell you, that in the futures market the big commercials can sell as much gold as they want without having to actually possess the metal they are selling. Despite the fact they are not really selling physical metal, this actually is permitted and the amounts are vast. This mechanism enables them to manipulate the spot price almost to any degree they choose. In other words the spot price of gold is not really much to do with a physical market. And in fact because gold is not really a commodity it has no business being in a futures market in the first place.

[crazy_rabbit]

In only responding to the OP title, I would have to say- this has yet to be seen.

[Rygon]

Gold has been mined out steadily year over year. We know gold is scarce and we also know there is more in the ground.
No one is sure about the gold supply. But every bitcoiners know the supply of BTC.

Exactly. I've never been satisfied with any statistics about the remaining gold supply in the ground. Talks about "peak gold" make me think about how everyone has been predicting for decades that "peak oil" is just around the corner - but never actually happens. Gold could be more abundant than most assume, even here on earth. And there are many reasons to keep knowledge of exact gold stores proprietary. Unless you are an insider with knowledge on reserves and gold supplies, you are operating at a disadvantage. At least in Bitcoin, we all have the same information.

[bb999]

Gold has been mined out steadily year over year. We know gold is scarce and we also know there is more in the ground.
No one is sure about the gold supply. But every bitcoiners know the supply of BTC.

Exactly. I've never been satisfied with any statistics about the remaining gold supply in the ground. Talks about "peak gold" make me think about how everyone has been predicting for decades that "peak oil" is just around the corner - but never actually happens. Gold could be more abundant than most assume, even here on earth. And there are many reasons to keep knowledge of exact gold stores proprietary. Unless you are an insider with knowledge on reserves and gold supplies, you are operating at a disadvantage. At least in Bitcoin, we all have the same information.

I'm not disagreeing with you but just want to reemphasize how the supply from mining gold is dwarfed by the potential supply from existing above ground stocks. The mining supply would hardly be significant if gold was trading at a fair market value. Because people would then be willing to sell instead of hoarding. If anyone think gold is down because of selling physical metal then you've been suckered by the media. Gold is down because of people getting out of paper instruments, meanwhile physical demand is currently soaring.

However the same principle does apply to your comment anway, which is that insiders know a lot more than the rest. eg does Fort Knox have any gold? how do you know if there hasn't been an audit for 50 years? Is China telling the truth about how much gold it has?  etc. In bitcoins we do have the same information which is a great thing.

China is definitely not telling the truth about how much gold it has, it has a history of waiting years to update its official holdings. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-08/chinese-gold-imports-soar-monthly-record-insatiable-demand

[afbitcoins]

hehe you must have got in your reply just before i deleted it. (because i didn't want to sound like i was laboring the point). But thats cool it was a pretty good post  

Very true about china, but then again, true of almost any state, including in the west.

[ElectricMucus]

Gold has been mined out steadily year over year. We know gold is scarce and we also know there is more in the ground.
No one is sure about the gold supply. But every bitcoiners know the supply of BTC.

Yes and no but it is the reason for the gold crunch this month.
You see gold, like every resource follows the Hubbert Curve. Peak gold was projected to be some time around 2020. Now what happened was that gold futures piled up to such an extent that it became questionable if it really is this early, not later. So speculative interest coming form the assumption of declining supply rates after that date went away and the price plummeted. Of course gold-bugs will tell you that was because market manipulation or "fake" gold futures for gold which isn't really there, but we should know better

But this does not mean that peak gold won't happen within the next decades so the gold price will not deteriorate completely.

That argument would only hold water if gold was a commodity that gets used up, like oil. However gold is not really a commodity, it is primarily really money, which is why central banks hold it. Almost all the gold ever dug up is still available to go to market, therefore there is a huge potential supply of it that far outweighs any new gold coming to market from mines. The laws of supply and demand should ensure that when more demand is there then the price goes up accordingly.

Where it all goes wrong is in fact what gold bugs will correctly tell you, that in the futures market the big commercials can sell as much gold as they want without having to actually possess the metal they are selling. Despite the fact they are not really selling physical metal, this actually is permitted and the amounts are vast. This mechanism enables them to manipulate the spot price almost to any degree they choose. In other words the spot price of gold is not really much to do with a physical market. And in fact because gold is not really a commodity it has no business being in a futures market in the first place.

It's both, as far as I know it's 50% jewelery, 30% industry and only 20% investment, or using it as money.

Once gold is made into jewelery it is rarely recycled since it is worth significantly more, and with a growing industry recycling can only go as far. I don't really think the gold futures market is fake. Mining companies must be truthful in their prospects or they will not find investors and their shareholders would sue them if they lie in that manner.

[afbitcoins]

Ah well, I'd say that if the market was free and allowed to find an honest value, almost any gold jewelry could come back onto the market. Physical gold is in strong hands at todays artificially low prices, much of that won't be coming back any time soon.

So what industrial processes use up 30% of the gold? You got my curiosity there.   

[Qoheleth]

or just put out the right nonce for any single hash.

There's no such algorithm.

The best hash-breaking QC algorithm halves the effective number of bits. For most uses of SHA-256 that's a big deal, but for suitability as proof-of-work it's basically irrelevant. There'll be a huge difficulty adjustment and we'll get on with our lives.

The scary thing in QC for Bitcoin is being able to break peoples' private keys.

[wopwop]

I'm holding bitcoins lol it's the future

[afbitcoins]

I'm hedging my bets, gold, silver and bitcoins. Maybe I should hold some litecoins too? too paranoid for ripples though lol