President of Walletbit confirms Avalon does not ship fairly

[Elokane]

(Apologies for the sensational newspaper title, though it's not an inaccurate one)


In a newsletter update last month, Yifu announced that they'd ship Batch #2 orders by payment time. That sounded fair to the community, especially as the first customers to orders were those who woke up in the middle of the night to mash F5 on the Avalon store site, when they started the sale, until the buying process made any sense.

I was particularly happy, as I was the first one to get a payment through.

At this point, I still have no relevant communication to show from Avalon. No purchase confirmation, no answer to support tickets, no information listed on their site (my order does not exist there at all). Nothing.

I approached Walletbit by email again to see if they could offer any help (they, at least, verified my order, a month and a half after sending them 225BTC), and this is what Adam Herding, President, had to say:

Hello,

I apologize for the delay in confirming your order. I have sent a walletbit confirmation email for your records. Should you have any problems with Avalon this is what you can use to prove that you have paid. Unfortunately it appears Avalon is not shipping in the same order they were placed which is beyond our control. I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.

Regards,
Adam

I know it's not news that the Avalon crew does not particularly care for its customers, but that they're also (apparently) completely ignoring Walletbit and reneging on such a simple promise given to us is infuriating.

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[PuertoLibre]

Show us what your wrote to them to elicit that response (no redactions please).

[Elokane]

Here you go. I've only removed my personal details. [Read from bottom - up]

***

From: xxx
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2013 18:53
To: 'support@walletbit.com'
Subject: RE: [#ZQO-418-62822]: Re: Order Receipt

Hello?

From: xxx
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 20:12
To: 'support@walletbit.com'
Subject: RE: [#ZQO-418-62822]: Re: Order Receipt

I still have not heard ANYTHING from them. My details do not show up on their site store either.
Can you guys please check what’s going on.. ?

Thanks.



From: Adam Harding [mailto:support@walletbit.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 2:14
To: xxx
Subject: [#ZQO-418-62822]: Re: Order Receipt

Hi xxx,

I have no way of checking your status in the queue personally. This is entirely up to Avalon and I think they will start giving more information in the coming days.

Regards,
Adam



Ticket Details
________________________________________
Ticket ID: ZQO-418-62822
Department: General
Type: Issue
Status: Closed
Priority: Critical



Thanks a lot.
Does this also include my position in the queue as the first one to pay, or is that up to Avalon?


From: Adam Harding [mailto:support@walletbit.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 7:39
To: konfortydor@gmail.com
Subject: [#ZQO-418-62822]: Re: Order Receipt

Hi xxx,

I can confirm that your order details match the information you have provided. This means Avalon as your shipping address correctly and your order is fine. I hope this has cleared up any concerns you may have had.

It may be of some interest to you that WalletBit has launched a new service - BIPS. BIPS gives you free merchant processing and ewallet services. For more information please see https://bips.me

Sincerely,
Adam



Ticket Details
________________________________________
Ticket ID: ZQO-418-62822
Department: General
Type: Issue
Status: Closed
Priority: Critical

Support Center: http://support.walletbit.com/index.php?




Hello,

This concerns the Avalon batch #2 order from early February.
I would like to confirm:
1) My shipping address
2) My position in the queue

So that everything goes smoothly once Avalon begins dealing with Batch #2.

1) My shipping address is:

xxx

My phone number is xxx.

2) I was the first customer to send you payment for the order, as can be seen with the block explorer.
xxx
(note that it's the same address used to send you the complete payment later, when this became possible - )
xxx


I have waited with this email until the pressure from the swarm of purchases wears off. I hope you can provide the support I need to complete this transaction quickly and smoothly.

Thanks in advance,

xxx

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 3:34 AM, WalletBit <walletbit@gmail.com> wrote:
This is an automated email, please do not reply    

Receipt
This is to confirm that you have created an order at Avalon of ססס BTC
Payment Details
•   Date: February 3, 2013 06:57:54 PM
•   Amount Paid: ססס
•   Batch Number: 16824
•   Txid: xxx
Thanks for choosing WalletBit
Need Assistance?
We're happy to help by phone at US: (702) 799-9950 or DK: 36 96 56 94, Monday to Friday 9:00am to 1:00 pm EST, or by email.

[bennybong]

All's I know is I really want my ASICs. Avalon, you're killing me!

[BenTuras]

First, I am one of the lucky ones to receive my 2nd/3rd February order. Afaik, Avalon said they would do a 20 order trial shipment and I am one of them. I saw some mention they are now also shipping the remainder of that part of batch 2.

So afaik those first 20 shipments are to test their new way of shipment and are not related to moment of payment or moment of order...

(Yes, I know I use afaik a lot, but only Avalon knows for sure...)

[rograz]

So afaik those first 20 shipments are to test their new way of shipment and are not related to moment of payment or moment of order...

This, makes perfect sense if they tried to spread the initial test shipment across the whole world rather than take the first 20 orders.

[Elokane]

First, I am one of the lucky ones to receive my 2nd/3rd February order. Afaik, Avalon said they would do a 20 order trial shipment and I am one of them. I saw some mention they are now also shipping the remainder of that part of batch 2.

So afaik those first 20 shipments are to test their new way of shipment and are not related to moment of payment or moment of order...

(Yes, I know I use afaik a lot, but only Avalon knows for sure...)

At this point I'm more concerned by the fact that my order isn't listed on their site and they do not even recognize my existence.

[rudrigorc2]

First, I am one of the lucky ones to receive my 2nd/3rd February order. Afaik, Avalon said they would do a 20 order trial shipment and I am one of them. I saw some mention they are now also shipping the remainder of that part of batch 2.

So afaik those first 20 shipments are to test their new way of shipment and are not related to moment of payment or moment of order...

(Yes, I know I use afaik a lot, but only Avalon knows for sure...)

At this point I'm more concerned by the fact that my order isn't listed on their site and they do not even recognize my existence.

If that is a test , why ship 3 units to same guy? 20 costumers getting the machines would be a better test.

[BenTuras]

20 shipments is a better test, orders of 1 and more machines ...

[rudrigorc2]

20 shipments is a better test, orders of 1 and more machines ...

I apologize if this hit you, I agreed 100%! 20 Shipments is a better test.
 I myself have 3 units order, split between 3 different people.

But as you confirmed, in your shipment they used three boxes right? Others got 3 machines in the same day too,  all could get one and wait the other two and still be happy. But now you guys with unbeliavable hashing power are squeezing the bitcoins from people without a single one.

The purpose of it all was supposed to protect the network and right now there are less people 'protecting the network' just because a "random" pick was made, I dont remeber paying a lottery ticket here.

[PuertoLibre]

I approached Walletbit by email again to see if they could offer any help (they, at least, verified my order, a month and a half after sending them 225BTC), and this is what Adam Herding, President, had to say:

Hello,

I apologize for the delay in confirming your order. I have sent a walletbit confirmation email for your records. Should you have any problems with Avalon this is what you can use to prove that you have paid. Unfortunately it appears Avalon is not shipping in the same order they were placed which is beyond our control. I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.

Regards,
Adam

I know it's not news that the Avalon crew does not particularly care for its customers, but that they're also (apparently) completely ignoring Walletbit and reneging on such a simple promise given to us is infuriating.

There is still some missing correspondence you have to fill in.

The above quoted text, for example, is missing from your redacted emails.

-------------------

Second, pardon me, but your conclusion that Avalon is "ignoring" wallet bit sounds like it isn't supported in your emails. As far as I have read, Wallet bit only comes to a generalized conclusion out of thin air. They don't even make any remark in the email of trying to contact Avalon.

They only "suppose" they [Avalon] may be shipping out of order.

This is why I asked you for your email correspondence. Since your conclusion seems like a forced one. I think it is only fair to say that Avalon is shipping units with some unknown pattern. But to extend that and also say they Ignored WalletBit (The Payment Processors emails) is disingenuous and probably overreaching as a conclusion.

[BenTuras]

20 shipments is a better test, orders of 1 and more machines ...

I apologize if this hit you, I agreed 100%! 20 Shipments is a better test.
 I myself have 3 units order, split between 3 different people.

But as you confirmed, in your shipment they used three boxes right? Others got 3 machines in the same day too,  all could get one and wait the other two and still be happy. But now you guys with unbeliavable hashing power are squeezing the bitcoins from people without a single one.

The purpose of it all was supposed to protect the network and right now there are less people 'protecting the network' just because a "random" pick was made, I dont remeber paying a lottery ticket here.

I don't think you understand my remark.
If I would need to test a new shipment route for 600 orders of various size, I would do 20 shipments of various size and that's exactly what they did.

[rudrigorc2]

20 shipments is a better test, orders of 1 and more machines ...

I apologize if this hit you, I agreed 100%! 20 Shipments is a better test.
 I myself have 3 units order, split between 3 different people.

But as you confirmed, in your shipment they used three boxes right? Others got 3 machines in the same day too,  all could get one and wait the other two and still be happy. But now you guys with unbeliavable hashing power are squeezing the bitcoins from people without a single one.

The purpose of it all was supposed to protect the network and right now there are less people 'protecting the network' just because a "random" pick was made, I dont remeber paying a lottery ticket here.

I don't think you understand my remark.
If I would need to test a new shipment route for 600 orders of various size, I would do 20 shipments of various size and that's exactly what they did.

They dont need to ship three packages to test if DHL can deliver them, dhl can deliver anything, its not about routes, where are the other people who got tracking numbers? whic one of your units went out not going through Hong Kong?

They just needed more screws securing each module and better packaging, for that one box is enough.

[bennybong]

They dont need to ship three packages to test if DHL can deliver them, dhl can deliver anything, its not about routes, where are the other people who got tracking numbers? whic one of your units went out not going through Hong Kong?

They just needed more screws securing each module and better packaging, for that one box is enough.

Their shipping 'channels' are a little unorthodox. This is China we're talking about and those machines are classed as contraband - bribes must be given.... unless you want to pay the real amount for shipping/taxes/import duties???

[Elokane]

I approached Walletbit by email again to see if they could offer any help (they, at least, verified my order, a month and a half after sending them 225BTC), and this is what Adam Herding, President, had to say:

Hello,

I apologize for the delay in confirming your order. I have sent a walletbit confirmation email for your records. Should you have any problems with Avalon this is what you can use to prove that you have paid. Unfortunately it appears Avalon is not shipping in the same order they were placed which is beyond our control. I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.

Regards,
Adam

I know it's not news that the Avalon crew does not particularly care for its customers, but that they're also (apparently) completely ignoring Walletbit and reneging on such a simple promise given to us is infuriating.

There is still some missing correspondence you have to fill in.

The above quoted text, for example, is missing from your redacted emails.

This was quite obviously the reply to the last "Hello?" message I sent.

Second, pardon me, but your conclusion that Avalon is "ignoring" wallet bit sounds like it isn't supported in your emails. As far as I have read, Wallet bit only comes to a generalized conclusion out of thin air. They don't even make any remark in the email of trying to contact Avalon.

They only "suppose" they [Avalon] may be shipping out of order.

This is why I asked you for your email correspondence. Since your conclusion seems like a forced one. I think it is only fair to say that Avalon is shipping units with some unknown pattern. But to extend that and also say they Ignored WalletBit (The Payment Processors emails) is disingenuous and probably overreaching as a conclusion.

Walletbit knows the payment order and can easily verify that to date, those who have paid first are not those who have received their machines.

You yourself say that "Avalon is shipping units with some unknown pattern". That is going back on their promise to their customers and, under a pretty universal definition, an unfair way to distribute their product. Ergo, "President of Walletbit confirms Avalon does not ship fairly".

[rudrigorc2]

They dont need to ship three packages to test if DHL can deliver them, dhl can deliver anything, its not about routes, where are the other people who got tracking numbers? whic one of your units went out not going through Hong Kong?

They just needed more screws securing each module and better packaging, for that one box is enough.

Their shipping 'channels' are a little unorthodox. This is China we're talking about and those machines are classed as contraband - bribes must be given.... unless you want to pay the real amount for shipping/taxes/import duties???

I read that post from ngzhang too, but this is not the issue here.

The testing is to prevent this from happening:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178168

[bennybong]

They dont need to ship three packages to test if DHL can deliver them, dhl can deliver anything, its not about routes, where are the other people who got tracking numbers? whic one of your units went out not going through Hong Kong?

They just needed more screws securing each module and better packaging, for that one box is enough.

Their shipping 'channels' are a little unorthodox. This is China we're talking about and those machines are classed as contraband - bribes must be given.... unless you want to pay the real amount for shipping/taxes/import duties???

I read that post from ngzhang too, but this is not the issue here.

The testing is to prevent this from happening:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178168

We are talking about different things I think testing of the Units themselves or testing the shipping of the units?

Another damaged batch #1:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.msg2176000#msg2176000

[BenTuras]

If I would need to test a new shipment route for 600 orders of various size, I would do 20 shipments of various size and that's exactly what they did.

They dont need to ship three packages to test if DHL can deliver them, dhl can deliver anything, its not about routes, where are the other people who got tracking numbers? whic one of your units went out not going through Hong Kong?

They just needed more screws securing each module and better packaging, for that one box is enough.

To do a test of 100 events, I do 10 events. Seems crystal clear, what more can I say ?
I don't think DHL is the issue, maybe it's the route before DHL gets into the picture.

And yes, like I suggested in the other thread longer thicker screws and nuts would prevent the boards to get lose from the case. The packaging is ok.

[PuertoLibre]

Second, pardon me, but your conclusion that Avalon is "ignoring" wallet bit sounds like it isn't supported in your emails. As far as I have read, Wallet bit only comes to a generalized conclusion out of thin air. They don't even make any remark in the email of trying to contact Avalon.

They only "suppose" they [Avalon] may be shipping out of order.

This is why I asked you for your email correspondence. Since your conclusion seems like a forced one. I think it is only fair to say that Avalon is shipping units with some unknown pattern. But to extend that and also say they Ignored WalletBit (The Payment Processors emails) is disingenuous and probably overreaching as a conclusion.

Walletbit knows the payment order and can easily verify that to date, those who have paid first are not those who have received their machines.

You yourself say that "Avalon is shipping units with some unknown pattern". That is going back on their promise to their customers and, under a pretty universal definition, an unfair way to distribute their product. Ergo, "President of Walletbit confirms Avalon does not ship fairly".

It is an over extension of logic.

The guy only concretely says we can confirm your order and here is an email to confirm your payment. The President of Walletbit doesn't confirm anything beyond that.

He just offhandedly says if they aren't shipping yours first, then we apologize for that. (that means he didn't actually ask anyone at Avalon)

Ergo, no real confirmation just supposition.

Don't believe me? Email him and ask him directly point blank to say that explicitly. Then, you have made that point. Otherwise, he is going on whatever you are telling him. There is no sign he ever even attempted to contact Avalon.

He's just looking at your transaction and saying "if you say so, it is probably so...sorry about that if that is the case".

[rudrigorc2]

If I would need to test a new shipment route for 600 orders of various size, I would do 20 shipments of various size and that's exactly what they did.

They dont need to ship three packages to test if DHL can deliver them, dhl can deliver anything, its not about routes, where are the other people who got tracking numbers? whic one of your units went out not going through Hong Kong?

They just needed more screws securing each module and better packaging, for that one box is enough.

To do a test of 100 events, I do 10 events. Seems crystal clear, what more can I say ?
I don't think DHL is the issue, maybe it's the route before DHL gets into the picture.

And yes, like I suggested in the other thread longer thicker screws and nuts would prevent the boards to get lose from the case. The packaging is ok.

As long from 10 events 3 its going  to your home, its all good, right?

Like I said, DHL can deliver anything, except batteries, one box would be enough to test that "route".

And their "unorthodox" delivery process is quite simple. Ship things to South China, pass the border, ship from Hong Kong, the main reason they do this is the COST of the delivery being much lower from there.