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Author Topic: ETH+POS=security?  (Read 595 times)
GLDFY (OP)
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September 11, 2017, 04:29:40 PM
Last edit: September 12, 2017, 10:24:01 AM by GLDFY
 #1

Hello.
I was wondering about ETH with turning away from POW to POS (as it was promised by developers). And I have a question. Doesn't this also automatically means that after enabling POS, the ETH will be considered as a "security" (by SEC)? Because POS obviously will be giving ETH owners passive income
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September 11, 2017, 05:06:45 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2017, 05:30:42 PM by AgentofCoin
 #2

Hello.
I was wondering about ETH with turning away from POW to POS (as it was promised by developers). And I have a question. Doesn't this also automatically means that after enabling POS, the ETH will be considered as a "security" (by SEC)? Because POS obviously will be giving ETH owners passive income

IMO, when ETH changes to PoS, it will be the same device as when PoW.
The type of consensus system is not entirely important when determining
what the financial device is. What is important is: the issuer of the token.

IMO, a decentralized cryptocurrency can not be a security, since the issuer
is the blockchain system itself. Its direction and control is absolute. If you
would argue that ETH is no longer a decentralized system, as evident by
their ability to undo the DAO failure incident (violation of blockchain purpose),
and thus transforms into a centralized system and device, than not only is
their network in a state of "unrealized capturability", but it could be said to
be an "illegal security". The issuer transfered from the blockchain, to humans.

So, IMO, whether a token is a cryptocurrency or an illegal financial device
is always contingent on whether the network and its different subsystems
are decentralized and remain that way. When that is lost, many legal barbs
can attach themselves in predictable locations and reveal the illusion.

What is important to keep in mind in the cryptocurrency ecosystem, is that
the law can declare something to be a security, or currency, or commodity,
or whatever, and they can attempt to enforce in whatever way they wish to,
but, if the system is functioning as originally designed, those attempts are
almost always futile and never achieve significant grounds. When a blockchain
is working in perfection, there is very little or no human interconnection.

Satoshi's solution of blockchain does more than what the Whitepaper outlined.
It was not about creating an online currency, it was about outmaneuvering all
worldly systems that could or would attempt to suppress his puzzle box and
prevent the new renaissance that his name foreshadows.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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September 11, 2017, 08:35:27 PM
 #3

Passive income alone is not the way the SEC defines a security, other factors must also apply.
GLDFY (OP)
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September 12, 2017, 10:04:20 AM
Last edit: September 12, 2017, 10:41:21 AM by GLDFY
 #4


IMO, a decentralized cryptocurrency can not be a security, since the issuer
is the blockchain system itself. Its direction and control is absolute. If you
would argue that ETH is no longer a decentralized system, as evident by
their ability to undo the DAO failure incident (violation of blockchain purpose),
and thus transforms into a centralized system and device, than not only is
their network in a state of "unrealized capturability", but it could be said to
be an "illegal security". The issuer transfered from the blockchain, to humans.


Absolutely! Right to the spot. And changing the way how ETH is being made (from POW to POS) is also the decision that made by humans, not the blockchain itself.
The more ETH is being "human manipulated" it will also drive ETH closer and closer to "(illegal)security" status. And such tendency will surely affect the whole ICO market (and I'm not talking about lot more other related things).

Bounty_Hunter
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September 12, 2017, 10:15:47 AM
 #5

Hey guys, PoS is in fact a "virtual computer" that you would "buy" what he would have made you the same currency i.e. in theory it should not be considered as securities, and SEC won't mind.
GLDFY (OP)
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September 12, 2017, 10:20:33 AM
 #6

Passive income alone is not the way the SEC defines a security, other factors must also apply.

True! To made Howey test a bit simpler I'm using this article as a "measuring algorithm" what security is. https://www.coindesk.com/simplest-way-understand-dao-security/

And the article defines security a quite simple: "There was an investment of money. And a common enterprise. With the expectation of profit, primarily from the efforts of others."

Yes, in the beginning of the ETH there was an ICO which was an "investment of money". And it was public ICO so it was a "common enterprise".

While Etherium is still POW and every ETH is being mined by the miners themselves for themselves it's not a security. But POS-enabled ETH will obviously gain both of less-desired attributes  "expectation of profit" and "primarily from the efforts of others" and that why ETH+POS looks scary to me.
GLDFY (OP)
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September 12, 2017, 10:27:01 AM
 #7

I just figured that I made a typo in original post subject. It was "ETH+POW=Security" instead of "ETH+POS=security". Changed it. Sorry. Blame me Embarrassed
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September 12, 2017, 10:29:17 AM
 #8

Its a nightmare for miners. But wait there is another way.
POW coins are always more popular then POS coins because of miners. This community was build with miners not bag holders.
So there is always alternatives such as monero,dash onion etc.. POW coins always one step forward
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September 12, 2017, 10:37:12 AM
 #9

Its a nightmare for miners. But wait there is another way.
POW coins are always more popular then POS coins because of miners. This community was build with miners not bag holders.
So there is always alternatives such as monero,dash onion etc.. POW coins always one step forward
Yet, one step ahead) I think the ETH will be the first exception and set a new trend in PoS.
GLDFY (OP)
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September 12, 2017, 10:37:48 AM
 #10

Its a nightmare for miners. But wait there is another way.
POW coins are always more popular then POS coins because of miners. This community was build with miners not bag holders.
So there is always alternatives such as monero,dash onion etc.. POW coins always one step forward

Especially if ETH will be considered as a "security"  Wink
But here I'm not "for" or "against" mining. I'm more about all ETH-based smart contracts, tokens, ICO and related stuff which is big already and becoming a HUGE deal to many. If ETH will become the security itself so what to say about all derivative products made on it. All the ETH tokens no matter how "productish" they are now, will become securities instantly. That's makes me worry. Not the mining. Mining should be fine Smiley
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September 12, 2017, 10:39:02 AM
 #11

That centralized decision may kill miners. This is why we should invest in ethereum classic instead of ethereum. Now ethereum can be seen as both as cryptocurrency and as security and asset.

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September 12, 2017, 10:44:56 AM
 #12

Hello.
I was wondering about ETH with turning away from POW to POS (as it was promised by developers). And I have a question. Doesn't this also automatically means that after enabling POS, the ETH will be considered as a "security" (by SEC)? Because POS obviously will be giving ETH owners passive income
LOL if you are believing on the security and that was a false thing, You must understand how it works and forget to judge the ethereum from your side. Ethereum is not the security token and it will never.
By the way i Pos casper is really interesting for everyone.

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September 12, 2017, 11:15:18 AM
 #13

SEC will never categorize ETH and its like under any usual category ever. because of their premine, their ICO and all the shady stuff that is going on inside them. ETH is unregulated too.

and also the only reason why they are switching to PoS is to make more money! the rewards are biggest for the biggest share holders. and guess who holds the most Wink

Holding Bitcoin More Every Day
AgentofCoin
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September 12, 2017, 07:05:22 PM
Last edit: September 12, 2017, 07:48:16 PM by AgentofCoin
 #14


IMO, a decentralized cryptocurrency can not be a security, since the issuer
is the blockchain system itself. Its direction and control is absolute. If you
would argue that ETH is no longer a decentralized system, as evident by
their ability to undo the DAO failure incident (violation of blockchain purpose),
and thus transforms into a centralized system and device, than not only is
their network in a state of "unrealized capturability", but it could be said to
be an "illegal security". The issuer transfered from the blockchain, to humans.


Absolutely! Right to the spot. And changing the way how ETH is being made (from POW to POS) is also the decision that made by humans, not the blockchain itself.
The more ETH is being "human manipulated" it will also drive ETH closer and closer to "(illegal)security" status. And such tendency will surely affect the whole ICO market (and I'm not talking about lot more other related things).


I wish to elaborate.

There are three important forms of Consensus that exists in properly
functioning cryptocurrencies.

The first, is obviously "Miner Consensus", which is what most people
call "block building" and is how the single chain is formed and it's
security is ensured. This is outlined in the Bitcoin whitepaper and
what solved the Byzantine Generals problem. This is an active chain
form of Consensus.

The second, is "Validator Consensus" or "Network Consensus". This
type includes everyone who is maintaining the blockchain on their
own independent and diverse systems around the world. Whether
an incentivized business or an altruistic individual, they both monitor
the network and the miner's block work, and can alert, and ultimately
prevent actions that violate the rules we all agree to follow on this
chain. (This type also contains Miners who are "honest". All honest
miners should distrust other miners by their nature, thus watching
and verifying other miners actions.) This is a passive chain form of
Consensus, with some outside active ability during violations.

The third, is "Community Consensus", which does not have a direct
mechanism within the system (currently), but is intended to slowly
gather support of ideas on changes to the single chain, for a future
date. This type includes all other participants that do not fall within
the first and second type of Consensus. This is what binds us all
together as one and bring us the security that ensures overall
ecosystem and network survival. This is an active user form of
Consensus which can determine active and passive chain
Consensus types for the benefit of all.

In the third, some ideas are easy to implement since they do not
actually change any major systems, but just add to them. On the
other hand, there are some ideas that are hard, because they directly
impact certain systems that could change the current known dynamic
which is currently stable. The "blocksize debate" was controversial
and thus didn't receive high community consensus because some
members of the community would be significantly disenfranchised.
(Normally, to get others to join your position, you would help build
up their systems so that they are made secure, and thus will join
you in the near future. But that is not what has occurred since they
do not want to perform the heavy work and create, but take the
easy path and conquer. But, wide is the road and narrow is the gate.)

So, my point for writing all this is to address your comment:
"And changing the way how ETH is being made (from POW to POS)
is also the decision that made by humans, not the blockchain itself. "


Your comment in the context of my statements above, ignores
Consensus. IMO, if ETH goes PoS through Bitcoin's third type of
Consensus, the blockchain system will have still issued the token.
IMO, the only time that the blockchain does not issue the token is
when the system can be directly or indirectly steered by an entity,
like the ETH developers with the DAO incident, or the token is
created by a known entity, like a legal corporation making an ICO.

But, if the ETH devs want everyone to move to PoS, because "that was
the plan", it could be argued that since a plan exists prior to the
creation of the Ethereum platform, it can not be a real cryptocurrency
since the whole system is actually directed and thus controlled. If they
allow their community consensus to deny the change to PoS, you could
say they are a cryptocurrency, but if the devs overrule that "community
contention", that new chain is a security.

So, in this context, you may be correct in that ETH was a security before
it was ever built, because it violates multiple forms of Consensus, since
their developers have the ability to steer the Miner Consensus, the
Network Consensus, and the Community Consensus.

This is interesting and I need to think about this more in depth later.
I believe I agree with you now that ETH is more of a security than a
properly functioning cryptocurrency.

Edit: After some thought, it might be that all cryptocurrencies are just
illegal securities and they each are in their own state of capturability.
So, when considering something to be a security, it might really be
"If a government took enforcement measures against a certain
cryptocurrency now, what is the probability of their success?". Thus,
the labels we give within our ecosystem is irrelevant and illusions.
We may be all security sinners in the eyes of our governments. Some
will be judge and other will not, all depending on our ability to remain
decentralized and anticipable. In this viewpoint, the three types of
Consensus are barriers to prevent or delay that required judgment.


I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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September 12, 2017, 07:32:23 PM
 #15

i have a question!

is ethereum will have vulnerability against 51% attack?

and if i understand, having a GPU will be useless?
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September 12, 2017, 11:30:36 PM
 #16

SEC will never categorize ETH and its like under any usual category ever. because of their premine, their ICO and all the shady stuff that is going on inside them. ETH is unregulated too.

and also the only reason why they are switching to PoS is to make more money! the rewards are biggest for the biggest share holders. and guess who holds the most Wink

This f...ing guy hold the most.
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September 12, 2017, 11:50:46 PM
 #17

Hello.
I was wondering about ETH with turning away from POW to POS (as it was promised by developers). And I have a question. Doesn't this also automatically means that after enabling POS, the ETH will be considered as a "security" (by SEC)? Because POS obviously will be giving ETH owners passive income

POS stake can give income ETH holder not only ETH owner
only replace confirmation transaction use pow system this mean need miner, to POS system only use wallet to stake coin


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September 13, 2017, 12:06:03 AM
 #18

SEC will never categorize ETH and its like under any usual category ever. because of their premine, their ICO and all the shady stuff that is going on inside them. ETH is unregulated too.

and also the only reason why they are switching to PoS is to make more money! the rewards are biggest for the biggest share holders. and guess who holds the most Wink

This f...ing guy hold the most.



Makes sense since he created it.

In short, switching to POS will most likely provide more stability long term.

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September 13, 2017, 10:22:09 AM
 #19

I think that switching to POS wouldn't be the main reason for SEC to categorize or not to categorize ETH as security.
I'm sure developers would find some way to aviod legal issues connected to ETH.
GLDFY (OP)
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September 13, 2017, 02:46:13 PM
 #20




Edit: After some thought, it might be that all cryptocurrencies are just
illegal securities and they each are in their own state of capturability.
So, when considering something to be a security, it might really be
"If a government took enforcement measures against a certain
cryptocurrency now, what is the probability of their success?". Thus,
the labels we give within our ecosystem is irrelevant and illusions.
We may be all security sinners in the eyes of our governments. Some
will be judge and other will not, all depending on our ability to remain
decentralized and anticipable. In this viewpoint, the three types of
Consensus are barriers to prevent or delay that required judgment.



First of all, I want to say thank you for your deep thoughts. This discussion can be considered as a philosophical (and so irrelevant in the eyes of most ppl) but the facing (upcoming) regulations will make it rather practical sooner or later.

The blockchain networks (and the ETH is just an example) is far from physics or mathematics laws. Blockhain as a conception is mathematic by its nature. However, each product based on blockchain is made by specific humans and in most cases affected by the (almost)same humans later on.

When I was started thinking of ETH+POS as a security, I did not expect that it turned out to be a discussion about exact and specific people can make drive ETH right to the regulators' hands.
I'd rather be (wishful) thinking that in case of BTC the situation is different, but I can be very wrong in this assumption too.  

A little daydreaming - The only way to avoid such situation in future would be an evolution as a part of core code. We may need to add a mechanism of evolution to blockchain (some sort of sophisticated AI may be), so it will be evolving itself to fit the demand of a major part of the community.  Seeing a rapidly growing computational power available (and major part is being wasted making very little practical output, keeping multiple copies of the same data and repeating calculations of the same hashes is far from being practical) to blockchain projects I would hope that "evolution mechanism" as something that we may or should be waiting for a very long time but still possible to see.


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