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Author Topic: bitcoin is going to be ‘allowed to succeed’ but not for you  (Read 2090 times)
the founder (OP)
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May 28, 2013, 05:48:57 PM
Last edit: May 28, 2013, 06:27:55 PM by the founder
 #1

What’s with all the bitcoin shutdowns?

Over the past few days we have heard about accounts being seized at Mt.Gox , OkPay shutting down Bitcoin Services, Liberty Reserve being seized and a whole host of operations being shut down right and left that have anything to do with the words ‘bitcoin’ and ‘exchange’.

In the same breath we’re hearing Paypal wants to get involved in Bitcoin as well as Western Union and a host of traditional financial companies.

What’s the deal?

Well, in a nutshell bitcoin is going to be ‘allowed to succeed’ but you’re not the one that’s allowed to succeed with it. Don’t bother opening an exchange today, and if you own one you should seriously be looking over your back as regulators are gunning for you.

You’re going to hear a ton more of account seizures and bitcoin to fiat companies shut down until a few months from now you’ll get this press release saying that Paypal is now accepting Bitcoin (with a zero refund policy and them in the middle). In other words you’ll send your bitcoins to Paypal, paypal then charges the client and forwards the bitcoins to the client. The client will have no charge back option. Of course they get their cut both ways in the process. Roughly the same terms come from Western Union and other established companies.

In other words, if you are an already established player (such as a bank, paypal or western union type firm) regulators are stalling for you to get your ducks in a row. When the slate is clean, the big firms can come in a clean house.

You think I am kidding? In 6 months check the status of bitcoin, you’ll see a few more currently operating exchanges shut down and a new host of “big firms” taking over the entire process.

I wouldn’t want to be Mt.Gox right now.


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franky1
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May 28, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
 #2

the deal is that exchanges in the past think that by moving fiat into bitcoin and bitcoin into fiat they did not need any fiat licences.

its all about fiat licences that these amateur businesses think they are strangely exempt purely because they also handle bitcoin.

its almost like saying your a vegetarian, but you are allowed to eat a proper beef burger on monday, a lamb steak on tuesday, a KFC on wednesday. a meat pie on thursday and a salmon sandwish on friday. as long as you have vegetables for the other days.

if you dont want to be ruled by fiat laws, dont touch fiat. this is why paypal and western union have no problems taking on bitcoin, because they already have the fiat licences

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
SgtSpike
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May 28, 2013, 06:44:05 PM
 #3

the deal is that exchanges in the past think that by moving fiat into bitcoin and bitcoin into fiat they did not need any fiat licences.

its all about fiat licences that these amateur businesses think they are strangely exempt purely because they also handle bitcoin.

its almost like saying your a vegetarian, but you are allowed to eat a proper beef burger on monday, a lamb steak on tuesday, a KFC on wednesday. a meat pie on thursday and a salmon sandwish on friday. as long as you have vegetables for the other days.

if you dont want to be ruled by fiat laws, dont touch fiat. this is why paypal and western union have no problems taking on bitcoin, because they already have the fiat licences
Exactly this.  Playing by the rules is a multi-million dollar commitment, and those not playing by the rules are bound to be shut down sooner or later.

I say all the more power to Paypal if they want to step in as an intermediary for Bitcoin.  That doesn't stop people from using Bitcoin completely P2P, it only enables people who would rather use Paypal to also be able to use Bitcoin.
AzureEngineer
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May 28, 2013, 06:47:14 PM
 #4

Too many Bitcoin startups don't know what they're doing and get shafted by financial regulations because of it. This isn't the government going after Bitcoin, this is the government going after illegal exchanges. If Paypal or Western Union get in on Bitcoin, they're going to succeed because they know what they're doing, not because there is some big conspiracy against other exchanges.

Bitcoin exchanges need to start hiring legal teams or they're going to continue to have FinCEN shove the long shaft of the law up their ass.

My name was simply a play on "Blue Engineer" from Team Fortress. I am not affiliated with Microsoft or the Azure project.
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May 28, 2013, 07:11:26 PM
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Hawker
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May 28, 2013, 07:19:50 PM
 #6

If you are right, buy Bitcoin now.  Sell all you have to buy Bitcoin.  Because if you have even 1 Bitcoin on a USB, it will be worth a fortune both because "the man" has endorsed Bitcoin and you have a way of transferring that Bitcoin that "the man" can never control.
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May 28, 2013, 08:03:24 PM
 #7

In the same breath we’re hearing Paypal wants to get involved in Bitcoin

Don't believe everything corporations tell you via the mass medial.
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May 30, 2013, 05:16:59 PM
 #8

Because if you have even 1 Bitcoin on a USB, it will be worth a fortune both because "the man" has endorsed Bitcoin and you have a way of transferring that Bitcoin that "the man" can never control.
Not if "the man" succeeds at keeping the block size limited to 1 MB, because then only approved gatekeepers will be able to afford to move that 1 BTC.
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May 30, 2013, 05:17:49 PM
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founder of bullshit
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May 30, 2013, 05:37:17 PM
 #10

uh, why would paypal use bitcoin? they can just make their own alt coin, like anyone
they can make an exact duplicate of bitcoin and call it PayPalCoin and do the exact same thing the OP is postulating

then Paypal doesn't have to buy any bitcoins, they can just generate them all themselves
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May 30, 2013, 05:45:54 PM
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I think they have one.http://www.army.mil/

It is about Freedom Of Choice and I choose Bitcoin.
ThatDGuy
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May 30, 2013, 07:27:42 PM
 #12

uh, why would paypal use bitcoin? they can just make their own alt coin, like anyone
they can make an exact duplicate of bitcoin and call it PayPalCoin and do the exact same thing the OP is postulating

then Paypal doesn't have to buy any bitcoins, they can just generate them all themselves

Why would anyone use Paypal's altcoin instead of the already-established BTC?
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May 30, 2013, 07:57:26 PM
 #13

ask the OP, he said paypal was going to take over bitcoin
i asked, why would paypal take over something they can just reproduce


maybe we are talking chicken/egg
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May 30, 2013, 08:31:31 PM
 #14

ask the OP, he said paypal was going to take over bitcoin
i asked, why would paypal take over something they can just reproduce


maybe we are talking chicken/egg

Oh, gotcha.  As I read it, I think he's saying Paypal would "take over" BTC (which they can't - by its nature it is decentralized) so much as current financial industries with lots of money will use their sway to keep up-and-coming BTC exchanges and money transmitters from growing and taking chunks of their business.  This will buy the bigger businesses time to bring their offerings to market that will leverage BTC along with their traditional fiat services.
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May 30, 2013, 09:19:49 PM
 #15

I think you may be very close to predicting the future.  A clear parallel can be drawn between P2P file sharing and Bitcoin.  The early adopter mediums will be destroyed legally by authorities until the major players can figure out a way to make money about it.  Just wrote a post about it: http://www.adventcarraig.com/2013/05/30/bitcoin-concerns/
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May 30, 2013, 09:24:43 PM
 #16

I just don't see a way for paypal to use BTC in any successful way. It's never going to be in their interest to do so, unless somehow they found a way to stop us from using the bitcoin network outside of paypal. ( Roll Eyes)

Meanwhile, they simply will not start up any type of an alt-coin, even to secretely use in-house only.

They know they'd never get any miners to secure and process it while bitcoin exists, so they'd be much better off to just premine it, and process all transactions in-house... But doing so makes little sense, because it's not as secure and fast as using their existing network with a non-reversible service option.  

So I am calling it now: Paypal's model will not include any coin ever... Which hopefully means BTC obliterates them from the face of the planet in a few years.

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May 30, 2013, 09:34:43 PM
 #17

I just don't see a way for paypal to use BTC in any successful way. It's never going to be in their interest to do so, unless somehow they found a way to stop us from using the bitcoin network outside of paypal. ( Roll Eyes)

Bitcoin's existence isn't in Paypal's interests, but they can't do anything about it now.  Adaptation to it instead of resistance is the only way they will survive long-term, and the earlier the better.

Paypal could provide a decent escrow service between buyers and sellers, I would think.

They could function similarly to Coinbase as well, and have online wallets.  The brand alone would probably put them at the top of the market in the US quite quickly.
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May 30, 2013, 09:56:49 PM
 #18

I just don't see a way for paypal to use BTC in any successful way. It's never going to be in their interest to do so, unless somehow they found a way to stop us from using the bitcoin network outside of paypal. ( Roll Eyes)

Meanwhile, they simply will not start up any type of an alt-coin, even to secretely use in-house only.

They know they'd never get any miners to secure and process it while bitcoin exists, so they'd be much better off to just premine it, and process all transactions in-house... But doing so makes little sense, because it's not as secure and fast as using their existing network with a non-reversible service option.  

So I am calling it now: Paypal's model will not include any coin ever... Which hopefully means BTC obliterates them from the face of the planet in a few years.

Why do you think Paypal couldn't use Bitcoin successfully?  I'll give you a few reasons why Paypal + BTC would be very successful:

1) Want to pay with Bitcoins, but the seller wants to receive USD?  Paypal does the conversion, just like it does with national currencies.
2) eBay.  Existing platform with hundreds of millions (or billions?) in sales each year.  Paypal acts as an escrow agent for each transaction, just the same as they do with fiat currencies now.
3) Want to send Bitcoins to your relative, but don't know their Bitcoin address?  Simple - just send it to their Paypal account.
4) Integration with merchant systems that already utilize Paypal.
5) Good financial reporting on sales made in Bitcoin.

And of course, Paypal would continue to garnish their 3% fee, and people would continue to pay it for the simplicity.

Sure, the above could be accomplished with other 3rd parties, but the point is, Paypal is already very well established and could easily make a profit off a thinner margin than any smaller startup could likely accomplish.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Paypal has a team of people already dedicated to figuring out how they can best integrate Bitcoin into their system.  The big concern they're likely up against is how to deal with Bitcoin's irreversible transactions and how that might relate to fraud risks.
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May 30, 2013, 11:58:40 PM
 #19

Why do you think Paypal couldn't use Bitcoin successfully?
They can't add any value to what the bitcoinosphere offers.

All they can do is add fees to it, while simultaneously legitimizing bitcoin itself.... A fatal mistake.

If they embrace bitcoin, the price of bitcoin is going to skyrocket because people will finally feel that bitcoin "is safe and even the big corps use it now."

Doing so makes bitcoin far, far, far harder to compete with, as the higher price will make far more people mine it and own it and get rich from it and accept it and write apps for it and so on; to a point where all of the old payment options just look archaic.


1) Want to pay with Bitcoins, but the seller wants to receive USD?  Paypal does the conversion, just like it does with national currencies.
2) eBay.  Existing platform with hundreds of millions (or billions?) in sales each year.  Paypal acts as an escrow agent for each transaction, just the same as they do with fiat currencies now.
3) Want to send Bitcoins to your relative, but don't know their Bitcoin address?  Simple - just send it to their Paypal account.
4) Integration with merchant systems that already utilize Paypal.
5) Good financial reporting on sales made in Bitcoin.
Most of these can add a minor value each that, when taken together, still make an inconsequential argument... The cost of Bitcoin's dominance is too big a price for them.

The more legit bitcoin grows, the more people will see how cheap it is to send bitcoin from a wallet to another directly... 3% or even only 2% on top of all purchases is something almost everyone would want to skip paying.

So let's fast forward to an imaginary future 5 years after paypal integrates bitcoin to offer all 5 of these services...

1) Paypal will still not be able to compete with bitpay's fees... Not unless they undertake a complete structural change and have massive layoffs. Meanwhile, Bitpay (or a BTC competitor) is going to grow, becoming known to pretty much all merchants worldwide. By then, I fully expect them to offer more overlapping services too, including money-to-email-address.

2) eBay is one store with high fees. Competition from millions of bitmits/bitcoinstores with lower/no fees will ad up to make this almost a negative point.

3) We already have Coinapult. Give it a few months (Or days at this rate) and smoother services will allow bitcoin to email, surely bitpay will too. (And not just email addresses registered with paypal!)

4) The number of merchants integrated with bitpay in 5 years could be in the same ballpark with paypal's merchants today. It won't be a major draw.

5) Surely Bitpay offers good accounting too already.

Without a doubt, 5 years after including a bitcoin service, paypal is going to realize that they have just spent 5 years
advertising for their competition while their own marketshare plummets.

Actually, it's better than that... They aren't just legitimizing bitcoin to the masses, they'd be giving them a halfway-step from a system they know to the bitcoin system so technically they'd be easing everyone into bitcoin gently. Oh man I wish they'd fall for this trap, but it would be a fatal mistake for their biz if they did. They aren't that dumb.

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May 31, 2013, 12:52:10 AM
 #20

Actually, it's better than that... They aren't just legitimizing bitcoin to the masses, they'd be giving them a halfway-step from a system they know to the bitcoin system so technically they'd be easing everyone into bitcoin gently. Oh man I wish they'd fall for this trap, but it would be a fatal mistake for their biz if they did. They aren't that dumb.

Yep! they are in a situation of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" - but right now there are lots of companies coming up who are all threatening to do it anyway.  Paypal has the resources and brand to put infrastructure into place that would theoretically allow them to compete.

The next 3-6 months for Paypal will be critical in how it's handled.
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