POLL is bitcoin in a bubble?

[JanpriX]

My take on this one is definitely a big "NO". Bitcoin is nowhere near at that "bubble stage" that others are always trying to say. If you can check the price history of it from the previous months and years, you can clearly see that we always have a major correction after a big bull run. Cryptocurrency market cap is still so small compared to the dot-com bubble that we had previously. We can only treat this as a bubble if we are in a huge bull run without any kind of consolidation but this is not the case as of the moment.

Most of the people around the world doesn't even know that Bitcoin exists. This only means that it has a lot of room to grow and that we are still in the adoption stage.

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[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

I just don't understand why people consider Bitcoin to be a bubble.

Although Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, but don't forget Bitcoin is disrupting a huge market that is of traditional currencies by making it online and decentralized along with many other benefits that Bitcoin bring with itself and its value will increase with increase in utility. Utility might not be much at the moment, but potential is high. Bitcoin is not mere a currency that is driven by speculation, but is giving us a whole new form of monetary system.

I think you nailed the answer to your own question.  From wikipedia: "An economic bubble or asset bubble ... is trade in an asset at a price or price range that strongly exceeds the asset's intrinsic value." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble]  If bitcoin has little or no intrinsic value, then certainly a price in the thousands of dollars per coin is trading in a range that strongly exceeds its intrinsic value.

One of the big problems we have is that there is indeed no good way of determining what a bitcoin should be worth.  All of it is speculation.  Some transactions are carried out for non-investing purposes, and bitcoin needs to be worth something for that to work, so I think it's worth more than $0.  But couldn't all of those transactions still work fine if bitcoin were $2000?  Or $1000?  Or less?  It's really hard to know how much, but I think there is a huge investor premium on bitcoin right now.  If all of the speculators disappeared, price would plummet.  Now, that doesn't mean that bitcoin won't become a mainstream currency in the future, and it doesn't mean that bitcoin's price can't go much higher.  But I do think it's likely we're in a bubble...I just have no idea how big it is.

Indeed, having no intrinsic value and still rising is considered to be a bubble. But I have very well mentioned that why increase in price makes sense. Bitcoin is providing a whole new form of currency which is decentralised and online but comes with limited cap. Thus, it is deflationary. Demand will rise naturally because this is something people want. Utility will increase in future with more merchants accepting Bitcoin. Recently a real estate company announced to sell their property in BTC. Soon more will follow. The increase in price is not hollow, but based upon some solid reasoning.

I totally disagree with this , define intrinsic value ! because with your understanding almost all the currencies in the world have no intrinsic value . I can give you endless examples , but lets first get few things straight BitCoin is not an asset Bitcoin is a currency and the price of a certain currency determined by the demand on it . so even if Bitcoin reached 1 million dollar and there is still people paying that much to buy it then it is worth what it is ,
your talk will be correct if we are speaking about an asset that the only value of it determined by the amount of return you get from it and this is not the case here .
I can keep go on and on explaining that BTC value is for fact its current price nor less not more so even if Bitcoin dumped to $1 it will be its value at that moment and if it pumped to $1,000,000 it will be its value at that moment as long as someone paying to buy it .

Again, from wikipedia: "In finance, intrinsic value refers to the value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis without reference to its market value." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance)]

Commodity futures contracts are backed by specific goods (oil, cattle, corn, etc.).  Stocks are backed by their issuing company (i.e., their assets).  Currencies have value because they are backed by the economies and wealth of the nation that issue them.  If the money supply/currency for a particular country remains fixed, its currency appreciates against other currencies when its economy does well, and it depreciates when it does poorly.  The dollar is valuable because it represents a country with a strong economy.  The value of a country's currency is, of course, more complicated than this, but this at least shows how other currencies have something to back them.  The problem with bitcoin is that it doesn't have anything tangible to use to determine what it should be worth.

And while the concept of bitcoin is that it's supposed to be used as a currency, I think that most of the price action is due to using it as an asset to make money, not as a currency to pay for goods and services.

[khufuking]

I just don't understand why people consider Bitcoin to be a bubble.

Although Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, but don't forget Bitcoin is disrupting a huge market that is of traditional currencies by making it online and decentralized along with many other benefits that Bitcoin bring with itself and its value will increase with increase in utility. Utility might not be much at the moment, but potential is high. Bitcoin is not mere a currency that is driven by speculation, but is giving us a whole new form of monetary system.

I think you nailed the answer to your own question.  From wikipedia: "An economic bubble or asset bubble ... is trade in an asset at a price or price range that strongly exceeds the asset's intrinsic value." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble]  If bitcoin has little or no intrinsic value, then certainly a price in the thousands of dollars per coin is trading in a range that strongly exceeds its intrinsic value.

One of the big problems we have is that there is indeed no good way of determining what a bitcoin should be worth.  All of it is speculation.  Some transactions are carried out for non-investing purposes, and bitcoin needs to be worth something for that to work, so I think it's worth more than $0.  But couldn't all of those transactions still work fine if bitcoin were $2000?  Or $1000?  Or less?  It's really hard to know how much, but I think there is a huge investor premium on bitcoin right now.  If all of the speculators disappeared, price would plummet.  Now, that doesn't mean that bitcoin won't become a mainstream currency in the future, and it doesn't mean that bitcoin's price can't go much higher.  But I do think it's likely we're in a bubble...I just have no idea how big it is.

Indeed, having no intrinsic value and still rising is considered to be a bubble. But I have very well mentioned that why increase in price makes sense. Bitcoin is providing a whole new form of currency which is decentralised and online but comes with limited cap. Thus, it is deflationary. Demand will rise naturally because this is something people want. Utility will increase in future with more merchants accepting Bitcoin. Recently a real estate company announced to sell their property in BTC. Soon more will follow. The increase in price is not hollow, but based upon some solid reasoning.

I totally disagree with this , define intrinsic value ! because with your understanding almost all the currencies in the world have no intrinsic value . I can give you endless examples , but lets first get few things straight BitCoin is not an asset Bitcoin is a currency and the price of a certain currency determined by the demand on it . so even if Bitcoin reached 1 million dollar and there is still people paying that much to buy it then it is worth what it is ,
your talk will be correct if we are speaking about an asset that the only value of it determined by the amount of return you get from it and this is not the case here .
I can keep go on and on explaining that BTC value is for fact its current price nor less not more so even if Bitcoin dumped to $1 it will be its value at that moment and if it pumped to $1,000,000 it will be its value at that moment as long as someone paying to buy it .

Again, from wikipedia: "In finance, intrinsic value refers to the value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis without reference to its market value." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance)]

Commodity futures contracts are backed by specific goods (oil, cattle, corn, etc.).  Stocks are backed by their issuing company (i.e., their assets).  Currencies have value because they are backed by the economies and wealth of the nation that issue them.  If the money supply/currency for a particular country remains fixed, its currency appreciates against other currencies when its economy does well, and it depreciates when it does poorly.  The dollar is valuable because it represents a country with a strong economy.  The value of a country's currency is, of course, more complicated than this, but this at least shows how other currencies have something to back them.  The problem with bitcoin is that it doesn't have anything tangible to use to determine what it should be worth.

And while the concept of bitcoin is that it's supposed to be used as a currency, I think that most of the price action is due to using it as an asset to make money, not as a currency to pay for goods and services.

Well I guess you agree with me that Bitcoin is currency ( people using it as asset do not change the fact that it is currency ) , So Bitcoin should be treated for what it is really is not for what people use it for or think it is . You are saying that any currency have to be backed by something and you gave an examples , strong economy , oil and wealth but you simply forgot one more very important thing the demand, It can also be a very strong factor to determine the value of any certain currency . For example what happened couple days ago with china news !! people started to panic feel that they are not really safe holding BTC ! and we saw price fall down almost 40% because there was no more demand , And after people started to fell that the danger is over they started buying again which made the price go up again ( this is no where near pump and dump situation because simply it is backed by news ) . So in fact the price go up and down based on  something ( china news ) not without any reason and that how any normal currency in the world will react . People think BTC price go up without any reason which is totally wrong .
because there is one very important reason that almost everyone forgot or even not see it , even tho it is very clear . This reason is "Adoption"  wither it is from new people entering the crypto world ( new money in ) or from already existence people putting more  money into it .

By the way people using BTC to make money in fact add a lot to its value not just changing it to an asset 

[iram1011]

I just don't understand why people consider Bitcoin to be a bubble.

Although Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, but don't forget Bitcoin is disrupting a huge market that is of traditional currencies by making it online and decentralized along with many other benefits that Bitcoin bring with itself and its value will increase with increase in utility. Utility might not be much at the moment, but potential is high. Bitcoin is not mere a currency that is driven by speculation, but is giving us a whole new form of monetary system.

I think you nailed the answer to your own question.  From wikipedia: "An economic bubble or asset bubble ... is trade in an asset at a price or price range that strongly exceeds the asset's intrinsic value." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble]  If bitcoin has little or no intrinsic value, then certainly a price in the thousands of dollars per coin is trading in a range that strongly exceeds its intrinsic value.

One of the big problems we have is that there is indeed no good way of determining what a bitcoin should be worth.  All of it is speculation.  Some transactions are carried out for non-investing purposes, and bitcoin needs to be worth something for that to work, so I think it's worth more than $0.  But couldn't all of those transactions still work fine if bitcoin were $2000?  Or $1000?  Or less?  It's really hard to know how much, but I think there is a huge investor premium on bitcoin right now.  If all of the speculators disappeared, price would plummet.  Now, that doesn't mean that bitcoin won't become a mainstream currency in the future, and it doesn't mean that bitcoin's price can't go much higher.  But I do think it's likely we're in a bubble...I just have no idea how big it is.

Indeed, having no intrinsic value and still rising is considered to be a bubble. But I have very well mentioned that why increase in price makes sense. Bitcoin is providing a whole new form of currency which is decentralised and online but comes with limited cap. Thus, it is deflationary. Demand will rise naturally because this is something people want. Utility will increase in future with more merchants accepting Bitcoin. Recently a real estate company announced to sell their property in BTC. Soon more will follow. The increase in price is not hollow, but based upon some solid reasoning.

I totally disagree with this , define intrinsic value ! because with your understanding almost all the currencies in the world have no intrinsic value . I can give you endless examples , but lets first get few things straight BitCoin is not an asset Bitcoin is a currency and the price of a certain currency determined by the demand on it . so even if Bitcoin reached 1 million dollar and there is still people paying that much to buy it then it is worth what it is ,
your talk will be correct if we are speaking about an asset that the only value of it determined by the amount of return you get from it and this is not the case here .
I can keep go on and on explaining that BTC value is for fact its current price nor less not more so even if Bitcoin dumped to $1 it will be its value at that moment and if it pumped to $1,000,000 it will be its value at that moment as long as someone paying to buy it .

Again, from wikipedia: "In finance, intrinsic value refers to the value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis without reference to its market value." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance)]

Commodity futures contracts are backed by specific goods (oil, cattle, corn, etc.).  Stocks are backed by their issuing company (i.e., their assets).  Currencies have value because they are backed by the economies and wealth of the nation that issue them.  If the money supply/currency for a particular country remains fixed, its currency appreciates against other currencies when its economy does well, and it depreciates when it does poorly.  The dollar is valuable because it represents a country with a strong economy.  The value of a country's currency is, of course, more complicated than this, but this at least shows how other currencies have something to back them.  The problem with bitcoin is that it doesn't have anything tangible to use to determine what it should be worth.

And while the concept of bitcoin is that it's supposed to be used as a currency, I think that most of the price action is due to using it as an asset to make money, not as a currency to pay for goods and services.

Well I guess you agree with me that Bitcoin is currency ( people using it as asset do not change the fact that it is currency ) , So Bitcoin should be treated for what it is really is not for what people use it for or think it is . You are saying that any currency have to be backed by something and you gave an examples , strong economy , oil and wealth but you simply forgot one more very important thing the demand, It can also be a very strong factor to determine the value of any certain currency . For example what happened couple days ago with china news !! people started to panic feel that they are not really safe holding BTC ! and we saw price fall down almost 40% because there was no more demand , And after people started to fell that the danger is over they started buying again which made the price go up again ( this is no where near pump and dump situation because simply it is backed by news ) . So in fact the price go up and down based on  something ( china news ) not without any reason and that how any normal currency in the world will react . People think BTC price go up without any reason which is totally wrong .
because there is one very important reason that almost everyone forgot or even not see it , even tho it is very clear . This reason is "Adoption"  wither it is from new people entering the crypto world ( new money in ) or from already existence people putting more  money into it .

By the way people using BTC to make money in fact add a lot to its value not just changing it to an asset 

Demand can not alone sustain a currency. You need to understand that as well. If today there is demand then what guarantees you that tomorrow people will still want it? Might be in future there is some other form of monetary system better than Bitcoin or in general cryptocurrencies, then what will sustain the value of Bitcoin when demand won't be there. That is why I said. Today there is a demand and hence there is appreciation in price and this cycle will continue for more years to come. Right now growth is genuine. But ultimately there will be a point when people have better alternatives and demand will decrease significantly. Then the bubble will burst and price will drop might be to zero. That is why a currency need to be backed by something.

[BitcoinPanther]

sigh...
many people always asked unnecessary question and this picture from time to time,
Bitcoin still has a lot of room to grow and basically this picture does not work with it.
Bitcoin in general always in a bullrun,but because of some drama price was declining(it happened because they want to get cheap Bitcoin and then holding for a longrun).
it's not bubbling right now and for a few years latter it will not,until we find the true price for Bitcoin and implemented by people.
so for now,it is not

True, market is not fully saturated so basically, Bitcoin is not yet in a Bubble, aside from that, the current dip states seems a bull trap set by the Chinese Government.  PBOC shorted its trade! and they wanted to buy back at a super cheap price that is why they plan these hostilities.  Just you wait when China announced that they are once again opening Bitcoin trading in their country.  The plan seems to hit 2 birds in one stone, regulation and accumulation.

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

Well I guess you agree with me that Bitcoin is currency ( people using it as asset do not change the fact that it is currency ) , So Bitcoin should be treated for what it is really is not for what people use it for or think it is . You are saying that any currency have to be backed by something and you gave an examples , strong economy , oil and wealth but you simply forgot one more very important thing the demand, It can also be a very strong factor to determine the value of any certain currency . For example what happened couple days ago with china news !! people started to panic feel that they are not really safe holding BTC ! and we saw price fall down almost 40% because there was no more demand , And after people started to fell that the danger is over they started buying again which made the price go up again ( this is no where near pump and dump situation because simply it is backed by news ) . So in fact the price go up and down based on  something ( china news ) not without any reason and that how any normal currency in the world will react . People think BTC price go up without any reason which is totally wrong .
because there is one very important reason that almost everyone forgot or even not see it , even tho it is very clear . This reason is "Adoption"  wither it is from new people entering the crypto world ( new money in ) or from already existence people putting more  money into it .

By the way people using BTC to make money in fact add a lot to its value not just changing it to an asset 

There are several things I'd like to respond to, but I don't have time to get into all of them now; I'll work on this some more later.  But for the moment, yes, I think we can at least agree that bitcoin is a currency.  That's what it was designed to be, and that's still at the core of how it's used.  Other currencies, especially reserve currencies like the dollar, are also sometimes treated as assets, held by people in other countries as an investment against their own local currencies if they are falling in value.