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Author Topic: Radix - Tempo Whitepaper  (Read 5305 times)
Fuserleer (OP)
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September 26, 2017, 01:53:39 PM
 #1

After 5 long years of hard work, failed attempts and lessons learnt, we present the whitepaper explaining Tempo, our ledger and consensus tech that was published this week.

You can get it at our website https://radix.global

It details how our ledger architecture allows high throughput, rapid settlement and offers a true micro-payment and IoT solution, along with the consensus algorithm which we developed to secure it.

Tempo is a completely different way of thinking, and I would STRONGLY suggest you leave anything you know about blockchain, DAG, and other ledger tech at the door, otherwise you will end up with incorrect conclusions.

This paper is the first of a set that will explain all of the Radix core features such as economics, DEX, payment rails and more.

I'll keep this short and let the paper do the talking.

As always, comments, thoughts and feedback welcome.

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September 26, 2017, 02:35:41 PM
 #2

Oy, VB! I think your nemesis has arrived  Wink
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September 26, 2017, 03:18:31 PM
 #3

This is the post I have been waiting on for about 4 years.  Grin

I also agree with smaragda, that the economics WP is the one that I have been chomping at the bit for, for a long time, and have had to rein myself in several times over the years.

Again Fuserleer Congratulations!
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September 26, 2017, 05:39:33 PM
 #4

It's definitely been a long road, but the results were worth the wait.

You finally now have a solution to end all other projects and their partial attempts at a solution.

The future is now!

RADiX (formerly eMunie): The future of money
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September 26, 2017, 05:47:29 PM
Last edit: September 26, 2017, 06:00:42 PM by Arvydas77
 #5

You finally now have a solution to end all other projects and their partial attempts at a solution.

I can understand your excitement after finishing 5 years job but I would guess it is a little bit too early to bury blockchain.
If Radix will work in reality as you suppose it should work, it means that blockhain only lasted for 8 years. If yes, I want to see faces in Silicon valley speaking about "the most disruptive technology after invention of the internet"  Grin



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September 26, 2017, 06:58:43 PM
Last edit: September 26, 2017, 07:11:45 PM by Anima
 #6

Well, its works quite well.. we did a test back in April on a network, and one node on the network (mine) doing the video. Regular PC's, mine doing loads of other stuff while the nodes in the network spam each other. Video is below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw2uy_NAx7w

One node was placed in Denmark, another in the UK. So, beta test, before recent database (and other) optimizations, test network across the internet. No cheating, no preload into ram. Just a straight up test to see the status at that time.

Best regards from Anima - proud member of the Radix team.
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September 26, 2017, 08:00:29 PM
 #7

This could get big. Really big.

Let's wait for the mainnet.
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September 26, 2017, 08:12:47 PM
 #8

Nice to see Emunie / Radix again  Smiley

No Signature right now...
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September 27, 2017, 04:31:53 AM
 #9

Congrats Dan. Smiley

Great to see the whitepaper out and am currently trying wrap the tech around my head.
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September 27, 2017, 06:38:48 AM
 #10

This is so exciting. Ive looking forward to this project since i first got into crypto and heard about it.
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September 27, 2017, 01:16:26 PM
 #11

Hi, Good to see you have a scientist in your team does he have a positive effect in development?
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September 27, 2017, 01:31:24 PM
 #12

Really exited to see the Whitepaper released! Have been waiting on this day since 2013  Grin

I must admit I have a hard time getting my head around it though. So perhaps my question is already answered in the paper and I just didn't understand it...

So the Universe is split up in X shards. Each shard is a part of the network contain transaction information, right?
Now what happens if a bad actor (Bob) sets up a lot of nodes that store, say, Shard (2) of the network and by that stores all or at least the majority of that shard.
Now Bob sends a a payment to Alice in shard (3). Alice now asks a node serving Shard (2) if that transaction is valid. But as Shard(2) is controlled by Bob, can't he return false information and thus double spend transactions over and over?
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September 27, 2017, 01:53:51 PM
 #13

Really exited to see the Whitepaper released! Have been waiting on this day since 2013  Grin

I must admit I have a hard time getting my head around it though. So perhaps my question is already answered in the paper and I just didn't understand it...

So the Universe is split up in X shards. Each shard is a part of the network contain transaction information, right?
Now what happens if a bad actor (Bob) sets up a lot of nodes that store, say, Shard (2) of the network and by that stores all or at least the majority of that shard.
Now Bob sends a a payment to Alice in shard (3). Alice now asks a node serving Shard (2) if that transaction is valid. But as Shard(2) is controlled by Bob, can't he return false information and thus double spend transactions over and over?


Bob will have to send the commitment data (see white paper) along, and by checking the hashes of the merkle tree you can prove the (in)validity of any atom.

Radix - just imagine - radix.global
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September 27, 2017, 02:06:02 PM
 #14

It's look pretty, guys.. Do you carry out ICO? or Do u have pre-sale?
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September 27, 2017, 02:44:07 PM
 #15

Deciding on how people are happy about this the launch of Radix should be the date of blockchain RIP.
Seems really interesting if legit. As I understand technology behind Radix is tested and works with real company.
I'm waiting more details on economics and ICO.



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September 27, 2017, 03:45:57 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2017, 04:17:45 PM by Fuserleer
 #16

Really exited to see the Whitepaper released! Have been waiting on this day since 2013  Grin

I must admit I have a hard time getting my head around it though. So perhaps my question is already answered in the paper and I just didn't understand it...

So the Universe is split up in X shards. Each shard is a part of the network contain transaction information, right?
Now what happens if a bad actor (Bob) sets up a lot of nodes that store, say, Shard (2) of the network and by that stores all or at least the majority of that shard.
Now Bob sends a a payment to Alice in shard (3). Alice now asks a node serving Shard (2) if that transaction is valid. But as Shard(2) is controlled by Bob, can't he return false information and thus double spend transactions over and over?

Bob has a few challenges to overcome here:

Challenge 1

Bob can never be sure that he controls a shard or a set of them.  He can't prevent anyone else from maintaining that shard, nor them being asked about Bob's transactions.  

Say Bob constructs an Atom(x) which Alice receives.  If there are any nodes that Bob doesn't control, they will also receive Atom(x), either from one of Bob's nodes, or from Alice's or someone else.  Bob can't prevent these nodes from receiving it, because he has got to broadcast it to Alice somehow.

Bob later presents Atom(x') which conflicts with Atom(x).  Bob can not be sure that nodes that aren't his don't have Atom(x).  If they do, when they receive Atom(x') from Carol, they can inform Carol that it is not legit..with proof of Bob's previous transaction.

Challenge 2

Bob will have to manipulate his commitments in order to fool Carol and anyone that may have Atom(x').  He would have to create Atom(x) to Alice first, somehow let Alice know about it without Atom(x) information leaking to the network.  Later present the Atom(x') to Carol, then submit Atom(x) and the commitment information for him to "prove" Alice was first....double spending x.

Alice might also be part of the ploy.

This is quite the challenge for a number of reasons:

If Bob places Atom(x) into a commitment and makes that commitment known, he is then very likely to be asked to verify that commitment at a future time by a node he doesn't control; Such as when connecting to it, submitting Atoms to it, or when part of a Temporal Proof Provisioning with it.

If Bob doesn't verify any commitments he has submitted when asked, then the node he is connected with will not accept anything from him, nor send anything to him until he does.

If Bob creates two commitments, one which he keeps to himself containing Atom(x) for later use and another without it which he presents to the network.  When he eventually presents the original, it will break his commitment sequence in the network.

Recall from the paper that a commitment references the previous one.

Say Bob creates C(2) which contains Atom(x) and keeps it to himself.  To preserve his commitment sequence, C(2) contains a reference to C(1).

Bob then creates Atom(x') that is sent to Carol.  He can't create C(3), because if he does, he has to reference C(2) which contains Atom(x).  To preserve his commitment sequence and for it to be accepted, C(3) also has to contain a reference to C(1).

Later when Bob presents C(2) to prove the existence of Atom(x) BEFORE Atom(x'), there will then be TWO commitments from Bob that reference C(1).

The only way for that to happen is if Bobs nodes are either faulty, or he has manipulated his commitments.  Nodes do not modify what they have unless there is verifiable proof that they should.  Bob can not have 2 commitments that reference C(1), therefore it can not be proven that Atom(x) was first.

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September 27, 2017, 04:15:52 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2017, 04:28:38 PM by Fuserleer
 #17

Challenge 3

Because Tempo operates with relative time, not absolute time, nodes stick to a "I'll keep what I've witnessed unless proven otherwise" and even then, their logical clocks still count up.

For example, say Node(A) witnessed an Atom(x') at LogicalClock(5), then it received a conflicting Atom(x) that supposedly happened before.  It doesn't matter what the time stamp on those Atoms are, it will always reference its local ledger first to discover information that it can verify against.  For Atom(x) to be proven to be before, then it must have in it's ledger some information about Atom(x) where the logical clock value is less than 5.  If it is proven that Atom(x) was first, and is accepted by Node(A), its logical clock will still increment and it will keep a record of Atom(x').

This is where commitments come into play and why reliable gossiping is important, as a node never "takes anyones word for it".

For Node(A) to alter its ledger, accept Atom(x) and disregard Atom(x'), it must have a commitment containing Atom(x) in a Temporal Proof that it saw BEFORE Atom(x').  If, when Atom(x) is presented with commitment "proof", the node can not find the commitment hash in its ledger that should have been previously submitted, it assumes that Atom(x) was created in a faulty manner.

Because of the inability to tamper with the commitment sequence, Node(A) will not have such a commitment, otherwise it would discover Bob's scam.

The paper details that Node(A) will also contact a number of its neighbours to perform a more intense order determination.  This will also fail, as none of those nodes will have any commitments in their ledgers either that match the supposed "proof".

Bob could continue to create a sequence of Atoms, TPs and commitments independently, even sniffing legit Atoms from the main-net in order to try and increase the viability of his "proof" and then submit them all in one go.  It is still detectable that Bob was faulty or dishonest as no node will have any commitments from Bob since before Atom(x') and Atom(x) were created.  Which indicates a high likelihood that he was not part of the main-net at that time and should have ceased processing Atoms.  

The fact that he didn't stop, also suggests a fault or dishonesty.


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September 27, 2017, 06:47:54 PM
 #18

Deciding on how people are happy about this the launch of Radix should be the date of blockchain RIP.
Seems really interesting if legit. As I understand technology behind Radix is tested and works with real company.
I'm waiting more details on economics and ICO.

The tech is tested and tested and tested.. we have spent years iterating the tech. It does indeed work and we plan to do a longer term test soon, showcasing reliability and ramping up the amount of TPS to show throughput on a  shard.

There is a real product already using the platform.. https://twitter.com/radixdlt/status/900357606220251136 called surematics. https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/22/yc-demo-day-s17-day-2/


Best regards from Anima - proud member of the Radix team.
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September 27, 2017, 07:09:19 PM
 #19

Oh, if somebody missed the main message here: This could be 100k/sec stuff!
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September 27, 2017, 07:28:26 PM
 #20

It could indeed!

We plan to do public testing that hits that (and beyond) over the next few weeks.

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