Possible Avalon Clone Scam - BTCBuyer deleting posts that question his business

[pikeadz]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220683.0

BTCBuyer posted this thread yesterday.  He is relatively new to the community and claims to be developing Avalon clones with Klondike boards (red flag #1 right there since Avalons don't use the currently unavailable Klondikes).  After he receives 10,000 chips, he says he *guarantees* his team of anonymous engineers will assemble all the chips into the boards within 10 days. 

I and others had a few questions about whether he would accept escrow, who he was, how he was going to assemble them, etc.  He chose to ignore the escrow question at first, but after repeated attempts, finally said he would not accept escrow.  Then he proceeded to delete all my posts from his thread.  Here they are.  I am not going to outright call him a scammer, but I think everyone should do their homework on this guy and ask the same types of questions.  Not only does he refuse to answer them, he deletes them.

I will keep this post short and simple.

I have personally purchased 10,000 chips from Avalon. For interested parties who want these machines and want proof the chips were ordered the photos are attached here. I even made a recording, of the cash trade for the bitcoins necessary to get this done. This can be provided upon request.

I am selling these machines for BTC75 each, just like Avalon has in the past. These machines will hash at 72GH/s each. You can expect your machines Mid to Late August. Everything will be shipped to you overnight from United States, if you are international please contact me and we will address proper shipping cost.

I will only be selling 35 machines. Nothing more, if you are interested, act soon. This is the real deal folks do not miss it.

What makes you qualified to do this?  BFL can't build a working ASIC in 10 months but Scammer McScammy can do it in a few days?  Post your credentials please.

If I had to design everything from scratch yes I wouldn't be able to do this, however, Avalon is providing every detail necessary for us to manufacturer their machines, before you flame learn about what's out there. Thanks.

I am well aware that yifu released the plans.  That doesn't mean a monkey can build a clone.  Post your credentials and why people should trust you.  Christ with all the scams out there...why wouldn't you want to legitimize yourself and provide more information?  Every ASIC except Avalon and ASICMINER is a scam until proven otherwise.  Not flaming... just a fact of life in this industry.

Another deleted post... 

Xian, Thank you for your interest. In this case, you can see that I have personally ordered 10,000 Avalon Chips already, I have posted pictures of the proof. If I hope you understand that if I didn't have the abilities to put this together, I wouldn't put up 100k of my own money to do this.

As far as delivery that is up to Avalon, my estimated date is based off of what they have suggested for a Delivery date.

If you have more questions please ask.

I guess my one question would be why do you keep dodging the "escrow" request people keep making?  It's come up at least 3 times now and you've not stated whether you would honor such requests.  Either you will or you won't.

And another... 

I am not accepting escrow for the same reason why all the big Players aren't accepting escrow, this business is built on trust and faith, if you don't trust me, simply don't do business with me.

OK, first, you are not a big player.  You are not even a little player.  You are completely unknown to this industry and have thus far refused to state your name or background.  The difference is, Avalon and, while it pains me to say this, even BFL had established themselves with FPGAs in a way that they did not need to use escrow to gain the trust of their buyers.  You have come out of the blue, out of complete anonymity, with no credentials other than some anonymous engineers who will be doing all the grunt work in a "guaranteed" 10 day time frame, you refuse to accept escrow, and expect people to hand over their hard earned money to you.  I'm not surprised a few already have.  I just think it's sad.  Until you change a few things with the way you do business, expect people to call you out on it too.

Finally, his PM to me: 

I don't understand why you are on my thread still, if you don't like my terms great, keep it to yourself. My thread is for people who believe and want a quality ASIC. Everything comes pre-assembled. If you like Avalon or BFL go order from them. If you believe you'll get BFL first great, I have proof that I actually ordered the 10k chips and not just claiming, to have it as a pre-order. These machines will be built, and that's the guarantee that I have over my competition who don't have posted photos of them buying the chips. I even have a video.

With that said, I wish you well, and if you'd like to buy from me great, if not please stay out of my thread. Thank you.

[1715024521]

1715024521

[BTCBuyer]

Hello pikeadz,

Thank you for taking the time to read through my thread and to post your concern.

I have started the thread to announce my service to the bitcoin community, one to which I am helping to build and contribute. I understand that the Bitcoin industry is about trust. This is the very reason why I am diligently responding to concerns such as yours and opening up communication.

I welcome any questions you may have about the product I am offering. Simply put, I have personally ordered 10,000 avalon chips (the proof which I have posted on my thread) with $100,000 of my own investment. For the risk I am taking and my investment, I am firm about my conditions. As I have stated prior, you are welcome to wait and see once my product is shipped and the response from my buyers.

I can assure you that I will continuously update the bitcoin community. However, I ask that you do not jump to conclusions or accusations before you see any of my products. You do not have to trust me, and I am not asking for your service. I am simply asking that you refrain from negativity and to wait and see. I simply consolidated the posts by deleting redundant comments to clarify the most updated concerns on the thread. As you will see from my thread, there is still both positive and negative comments, just less spamming on your part.

Please refrain from false accusations before you have personally spoken to our team about our product and service. We welcome any and all direct communication with potential clients to establish a long lasting partnership.

Thank you very much.

BTCBuyer Team.
 

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

So, why not escrow?

I was starting to work on a programming task for BTCBuyer, but after seeing this post I have decided against it.

[suryc]

Seriously, why not allow escrow? I don't understand the reluctance unless the seller has something to hide. He could even set a slightly higher price for escrow and that would be OK. Like 75BTC without escrow and 80BTC with escrow.

This was his answer earlier on his thread:

Escrow can be a problem for the seller. If you received the goods and claim that you did not receive them, then I am out of my bitcoins, chips, and shipping cost. This is problematic for me. Therefore to address this concern of credibility, I have  posted photos at the start of the thread to show you that the chips have already been ordered. Unlike other sellers on this forum who claim that "we have ordered the chips" without any proof, I have solid evidence that I have indeed ordered the 10,000 Avalon Asic chips with $100,000 of my own investment.

I understand that in this Bitcoin industry, trust is important. However, timeliness is as well. If you do not trust me, simply do not order from me. I only request that you take your business elsewhere, as this thread is for those who are interested in the product I am offering.

I have kept my thread and responses brief because I do not believe that it is necessary to dwell on the negative comments. I am announcing and offering my service on this forum. I have clients elsewhere as well. Just because I am a junior member who does not post often, does not mean that I am not knowledgeable and have the appropriate network to make this happen.

I am a businessman and therefore not well versed in the technical field. That does not mean I do not have a well trained team of engineers. For privacy reasons, my team has requested that I keep their information confidential. However, they are highly qualified individuals from the top ivy league universities.

I have dealt with many clients, who are happy and satisfied with my product and work. If you would like to be one of my clients, then I can assure you, that you will receive your 72Gh/s machine from me. I am a man of my words.

If you would like further information, I would be more than happy to discuss them with you. However, please do not make judgements or conclusions before you have seen what I can do.

Seems fishy.

[MPOE-PR]

Right-o, his thread is for people who believe. Dun dun dun, how didn't BFL think of that one.

[BTCBuyer]

Hello TradeFortress,

I have responded to Pikeadz and the rest of the thread as follows:

-----------------------------
WHY ESCROW IS GOOD: An escrow is helpful and useful in limiting fraud for a buyer because he or she acts as an intermediary between the two parties. For example, if you were a buyer and the seller never ships, then the escrow takes funds from the seller's account, and gives it back to the buyer. This strengthens the Bitcoin economy because risk in bitcoin dealing is limited.

WHY ESCROW IS BAD: The escrow system does not take into account disputes between the buyer and seller, which is known as "escrow scam." Bitcoin is designed so that you have total ownership rights of your money. This is offset by the competing interest in fraud protection. These two interests cannot be compromised: you either have (1) total ownership rights of your money or (2) fraud protection. With that said, I believe in the first camp, that the power to handle your money rests in your own hands, not a third party, escrow, or bank. It is up to you, and only you, to send bitcoins to your trusted entities.

In a buyer scam, the buyer purchases a product using escrow, then claims he never received it, thereby filing an escrow dispute. While bitcoin escrow services can mitigate the issue, it can only do so with a simple default to a 50/50 split in the event of a dispute.

I have personally looked into Escrow JohnK's contractual fine print. He says that on the event that any problems arises, "he will release the escrow to whichever party that presents him with the most convincing proof and/or after an open discussion with others." Therefore, my investments and potential double loss (from the original bitcoins to buy the chips and the revenue generated from the sale) would be pending on the escrow's decisions.

You are free to make your own decisions as to with whom you do business and the conditions you attach. These are my conditions and the reasoning behind them.

I thank you for your time and concern.
--------------------------------

I am diligently responding to concerns on this thread and my original thread so that I can open up communication. I believe that the only way to move forward is to gain trust. Pikeadz's main concern was why I had deleted some of the prior posts. As you review my original post, you can see that all the positive and negative comments are still available to view. I have simply cleared up the same redundant negative messages on the thread so that new viewers can quickly be up-to-date as to the concerns.

In my communication with you, I have always been diligent and straight forward as to what I would like on the project. I am a business minded person, and therefore I am not well versed in the technical field. Therefore, I am always recruiting talented individuals such as yourself to help me contribute and promote the bitcoin community.

If you have any questions or concerns, I welcome that you take it directly to me. I am open to having a phone conversation with you or anyone on this forum.

Thank you very much.

BTCbuyer Team.

[John (John K.)]

So, why not escrow?

I was starting to work on a programming task for BTCBuyer, but after seeing this post I have decided against it.

.....

In a buyer scam, the buyer purchases a product using escrow, then claims he never received it, thereby filing an escrow dispute. While bitcoin escrow services can mitigate the issue, it can only do so with a simple default to a 50/50 split in the event of a dispute.

I have personally looked into Escrow JohnK's contractual fine print. He says that on the event that any problems arises, "he will release the escrow to whichever party that presents him with the most convincing proof and/or after an open discussion with others." Therefore, my investments and potential double loss (from the original bitcoins to buy the chips and the revenue generated from the sale) would be pending on the escrow's decisions.
....

Just to give my .02 on the escrow issue here:

It would be in the seller's best interests (and actually the buyer's) to ship using a signature needed delivery. In that case, it eliminates the point where the buyer can claim that he has never received it. This is stated in the 'most convincing proof' part, where the delivery confirmation is an irrefutable proof that the package has reached the buyer. The package should be declared honestly at the customs (so that the buyer cannot claim that the item inside is 'significantly not as described'), and optionally a video can be shot showing the packaging of the working product into the original shipping container before being posted at the courier. On the other hand, the buyer should do his own diligence by either recording the package being opened after arrival, or preferably open the package in the view of the delivery man.

[BTCBuyer]

Hello JohnK,

I truly appreciate the time you took to address our team's concern about possible buyer's scam. I believe you agree and recognize that this is a valid concern in our bitcoin community concerning trust and honest dealing within a peer-to-peer network.

As our team grows and develops, we believe that the best business model to promote a better relationship and long term partnership with our clients is with direct communication. This relationship promotes efficiency and trust with our product and brand without going through a third party. We asked that any interested clients to contact us directly, through a private phone conference call or in person meeting. After speaking with us personally, it is up to the client to make his or her own judgment as to our conditions and creditability. If the client feels that it is not the appropriate time to take up the relationship, then we are open to a future working relationship in the near future.

If the clients wishes to strengthen and solidify our working and professional relationship, then we welcome him or her to our family.

JohnK, I really appreciate your comments, and will be sure to take your advise into consideration as we move forward.

Please do continue to update our team as to your progress to promote legal protections for buyers and sellers. I hope that with continual communication, our business and professional relationship will develop and we can continue to help promote the Bitcoin community together.

Thank you very much.

BTCbuyer Team.

[pikeadz]

He claims to have now presold 16 units.  Will the buyers (if they are real) please step up and provide periodic updates regarding this business?  Between the generic politiciany customer service tone and sensational claims of future productivity and "get-it-while-you-can" sales, this one is shaping up to look more like a scam every day.