just drop taxes at all

[tutkarz]

What if government would just stop collecting taxes. Imagine how simpler life would be. No bureaucracy, no vat, way less officials, nobody fighting money laundering, way simpler economy and businesses without traps.
In exchange government would simply print as much money as they need and spend for education, health care and everything they wish. Its that simple. What do you think?

[The Goat Master]

What if government would just stop collecting taxes. Imagine how simpler life would be. No bureaucracy, no vat, way less officials, nobody fighting money laundering, way simpler economy and businesses without traps.
In exchange government would simply print as much money as they need and spend for education, health care and everything they wish. Its that simple. What do you think?

What about inflation?
(Zimbabwe, they printed too much money)

[tutkarz]

What if government would just stop collecting taxes. Imagine how simpler life would be. No bureaucracy, no vat, way less officials, nobody fighting money laundering, way simpler economy and businesses without traps.
In exchange government would simply print as much money as they need and spend for education, health care and everything they wish. Its that simple. What do you think?

What about inflation?
(Zimbabwe, they printed too much money)

well they are printing anyways? now they have more public debt and they are fighting people who avoid taxes, if there would be no taxes then nobody would have to avoid them and inflation would hit everybody equally

everything can be calculated: how much it cost to collect taxes, how much is lost because people are avoiding them and what inflation printing would make

[hawkeye]

What if government would just stop collecting taxes. Imagine how simpler life would be. No bureaucracy, no vat, way less officials, nobody fighting money laundering, way simpler economy and businesses without traps.
In exchange government would simply print as much money as they need and spend for education, health care and everything they wish. Its that simple. What do you think?

<facepalm>
<shakes head>

Give the government an unlimited license to counterfeit as much money as they want?  Couldn't possibly go wrong...

[tutkarz]

What if government would just stop collecting taxes. Imagine how simpler life would be. No bureaucracy, no vat, way less officials, nobody fighting money laundering, way simpler economy and businesses without traps.
In exchange government would simply print as much money as they need and spend for education, health care and everything they wish. Its that simple. What do you think?

<facepalm>
<shakes head>

Give the government an unlimited license to counterfeit as much money as they want?  Couldn't possibly go wrong...

like now everything works great
and system is overcomplicated too

[myrkul]

What if government would just stop collecting taxes. Imagine how simpler life would be. No bureaucracy, no vat, way less officials, nobody fighting money laundering, way simpler economy and businesses without traps.
In exchange government would simply print as much money as they need and spend for education, health care and everything they wish. Its that simple. What do you think?

What about inflation?
(Zimbabwe, they printed too much money)

well they are printing anyways? now they have more public debt and they are fighting people who avoid taxes, if there would be no taxes then nobody would have to avoid them and inflation would hit everybody equally

everything can be calculated: how much it cost to collect taxes, how much is lost because people are avoiding them and what inflation printing would make

I'm going to drop some names.

Wiemar Germany
Zimbabwe
Chile
Nicaragua
Greece
Hungary

Those are all examples of why this is a bad idea.

[tutkarz]

What if government would just stop collecting taxes. Imagine how simpler life would be. No bureaucracy, no vat, way less officials, nobody fighting money laundering, way simpler economy and businesses without traps.
In exchange government would simply print as much money as they need and spend for education, health care and everything they wish. Its that simple. What do you think?

What about inflation?
(Zimbabwe, they printed too much money)

well they are printing anyways? now they have more public debt and they are fighting people who avoid taxes, if there would be no taxes then nobody would have to avoid them and inflation would hit everybody equally

everything can be calculated: how much it cost to collect taxes, how much is lost because people are avoiding them and what inflation printing would make

I'm going to drop some names.

Wiemar Germany
Zimbabwe
Chile
Nicaragua
Greece
Hungary

Those are all examples of why this is a bad idea.

yes but this examples doesnt factor two things:
- cheaper country which have way less officials
- different economy that is free from taxes

besides i dont know what they were doing with money they printed... bought stocks?

[Elwar]

I would be fine with this non-taxing government that issued its own inflating currency.

As long as I am not forced to use their currency.

[DeathAndTaxes]

As pointed out countries with unlimited ability to print money generally end up printing a nearly unlimited amount.   Tax collection being difficult acts as a constraint on the system.   It is well known that as the level of tax burden increases the amount of tax avoidance (legal) and tax evasion (illegal) increases.  This reduces the effective collected taxes.   Excessive taxation also leads to capital flows, companies and investors decide to leave a location in favor of one which is "business friendly".

Obviously this system isn't perfect but you can think of the difficulty in collecting taxes as a safety valve on government spending.  In the US the major problem is that the US has too good of a credit history.  The T-bond is still seen as a safe haven (least bad option) this means the government can borrow record amounts at negligible rates.  So while tax burden hasn't significantly increases, spending has exploded because of the ease in borrowing.  Expenditures = Revenue + Debt.  Revenue hasn't significantly increased so the increase in expenditures has gone directly to debt financing.

As long as the US govt can borrow trillions @ less than the rate of inflation don't expect debt financing to be seen as unattractive and thus it won't provide a cap on spending.  However eventually rates will go up and the difficulty in borrowing combined with the difficulty in collecting additional taxes will constrain spending ... well at least in theory. There has never been a country which just printed without limit that lasted more than a decade.  Not rome, not Germany, not Zimbabwe.  History has shown that without some constraint on spending government inevitably overpsend and fail.

[hawkeye]

What they are doing now, even they consider it a last resort.

Look, you monetary novices come along every so often with this exact idea.  It's not new.  And it's not a good idea.  

It won't be applied evenly.  The more financially astute will benefit while those less financially astute will suffer.  It will destabilise the currency just like what is happening now, which if not halted will eventually lead to a complete loss of confidence in the currency.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I would be fine with this non-taxing government that issued its own inflating currency.

As long as I am not forced to use their currency.

This and this is the problem.  Is the US did this (and other currency issuers didn't) then Americans would as quickly as possible exchange USD for BTC, EUR, etc.  This reduces demand for the dollar drives the value down and inflation up.  The only way a country "could" finance itself solely by printing/inflation would be absolute capital controls even then there those looking to escape would do so by buying commodities (primarily precious metals).

[NewLiberty]

What if government would just stop collecting taxes. Imagine how simpler life would be. No bureaucracy, no vat, way less officials, nobody fighting money laundering, way simpler economy and businesses without traps.
In exchange government would simply print as much money as they need and spend for education, health care and everything they wish. Its that simple. What do you think?

What about inflation?
(Zimbabwe, they printed too much money)

well they are printing anyways? now they have more public debt and they are fighting people who avoid taxes, if there would be no taxes then nobody would have to avoid them and inflation would hit everybody equally

everything can be calculated: how much it cost to collect taxes, how much is lost because people are avoiding them and what inflation printing would make

Inflation never hits everyone equally.
Inflation hits those furthest from the currency issuer the hardest, always.

The first person to spend a newly created unit of currency spends it into an economy that has not adjusted its prices to accommodate that new unit of currency.  The second person to spend that newly created unit of currency, if they spend it anywhere other than with the creator, is also spending it into an unadjusted economy.  But as this progresses, out and away from the currency creator the economy adjusts.

[myrkul]

yes but this examples doesnt factor two things:
- cheaper country which have way less officials
- different economy that is free from taxes

besides i dont know what they were doing with money they printed... bought stocks?

Let me ask you something. If you could pull an infinite amount of money from your wallet, every purchase could be covered just by reaching into your pocket, would you voluntarily limit the price and quantity of things you bought? Or would you have a gold-plated toilet, just because you could?

[tutkarz]

yes but this examples doesnt factor two things:
- cheaper country which have way less officials
- different economy that is free from taxes

besides i dont know what they were doing with money they printed... bought stocks?

Let me ask you something. If you could pull an infinite amount of money from your wallet, every purchase could be covered just by reaching into your pocket, would you voluntarily limit the price and quantity of things you bought? Or would you have a gold-plated toilet, just because you could?

this is true but the difference is that printing powers would be in government hands who spends on your education or health centres, hospitals etc. you have to trust them like you are doing now that they will do it taking responsibility for their actions. there is no system that stupid people cant break down.
look at governments now and how much debt they have and rising, or hospitals debt etc. who is going to pay for this?

[NewLiberty]

yes but this examples doesnt factor two things:
- cheaper country which have way less officials
- different economy that is free from taxes

besides i dont know what they were doing with money they printed... bought stocks?

Let me ask you something. If you could pull an infinite amount of money from your wallet, every purchase could be covered just by reaching into your pocket, would you voluntarily limit the price and quantity of things you bought? Or would you have a gold-plated toilet, just because you could?

this is true but the difference is that printing powers would be in government hands who spends on your education or health centres, hospitals etc. you have to trust them like you are doing now that they will do it taking responsibility for their actions. there is no system that stupid people cant break down.
look at governments now and how much debt they have and rising, or hospitals debt etc. who is going to pay for this?

Today, inflation+tax pays for it.  In the end game, the poor.  They pay because they are those who have the least choice in what currency they are holding when someone has to be left holding the bag.  They won't have gold, land, or hard assets.  They will have a lot of paper currency.
Paper currency are debt instruments.  So the holders of them are owed a debt.  The debt is only payable in more debt, and so they trade these debt notes around for what they need to live.

[hawkeye]

this is true but the difference is that printing powers would be in government hands who spends on your education or health centres, hospitals etc. you have to trust them like you are doing now that they will do it taking responsibility for their actions.

lol.  yes, I "trust" the government.  That's why I don't get into all this bitcoin silliness.  Oh wait a sec...

look at governments now and how much debt they have and rising, or hospitals debt etc. who is going to pay for this?

No-one ultimately.  And these systems will break down at some future point.  Be ready.

[tutkarz]

yes but this examples doesnt factor two things:
- cheaper country which have way less officials
- different economy that is free from taxes

besides i dont know what they were doing with money they printed... bought stocks?

Let me ask you something. If you could pull an infinite amount of money from your wallet, every purchase could be covered just by reaching into your pocket, would you voluntarily limit the price and quantity of things you bought? Or would you have a gold-plated toilet, just because you could?

this is true but the difference is that printing powers would be in government hands who spends on your education or health centres, hospitals etc. you have to trust them like you are doing now that they will do it taking responsibility for their actions. there is no system that stupid people cant break down.
look at governments now and how much debt they have and rising, or hospitals debt etc. who is going to pay for this?

Today, inflation+tax pays for it.  In the end game, the poor.  They pay because they are those who have the least choice in what currency they are holding when someone has to be left holding the bag.  They won't have gold, land, or hard assets.  They will have a lot of paper currency.
Paper currency are debt instruments.  So the holders of them are owed a debt.  The debt is only payable in more debt, and so they trade these debt notes around for what they need to live.

the poor spend money as soon as they earn it or live off the debt anyway. but they have to pay taxes on top of it. its easy to calculate, when you earn money you have to pay (depending on country i assume average 50% tax total, some more?) so what if you wouldnt have to pay taxes, you would earn 2x more, which means you could afford 2x more bread or clothes or anything you need. which in turn means that country doesnt need to help that much to poor people like it does now => cheaper country

on the other hand rich people have many ways to avoid taxes but with higher inflation they couldnt do this at all. they would have to invest money in something instead of having them in tax free heavens ...

[tutkarz]

this is true but the difference is that printing powers would be in government hands who spends on your education or health centres, hospitals etc. you have to trust them like you are doing now that they will do it taking responsibility for their actions.

lol.  yes, I "trust" the government.  That's why I don't get into all this bitcoin silliness.  Oh wait a sec...

look at governments now and how much debt they have and rising, or hospitals debt etc. who is going to pay for this?

No-one ultimately.  And these systems will break down at some future point.  Be ready.

they will break, exactly my point: if both systems are bad then i choose the simpler one

[myrkul]

they will break, exactly my point: if both systems are bad then i choose the simpler one

If I presented you with a system that is demonstrably better than either of those two options, would you consider it?

[hawkeye]

they will break, exactly my point: if both systems are bad then i choose the simpler one

Why not encourage one which won't break?

Or are you just trolling?