BTC are doomed

[RobertRibbeck]

There is one fallacy that will doom the bitcoin
The ability to use a fraction of a coin down to the millionth
Then charging 20+ times over to transfer these small values
.01 btc per 1k transfer is ridicules to send to send half that amount of dust
those small bits of dust are already spread all over

I wonder how many wallets have coin dust that will set forever never being able to be circulated because of the transaction fee structure

[dmcdad]

I don't understand your argument. There is lots of dust out there, yes, but by definition the value of each piece of "dust" is so small that even if you added all the dust together its total value would not be large enough to impact the economics of bitcoin.

[RobertRibbeck]

I don't understand your argument. There is lots of dust out there, yes, but by definition the value of each piece of "dust" is so small that even if you added all the dust together its total value would not be large enough to impact the economics of bitcoin.

Care to speculate how many bit coins that dust is eating up now or will ?
My guess if it could be tallied the amount would surprise you
and it will only get worse

[dmcdad]

I'm not sure what the value is now, but I would bet it is a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the BTC market cap.

And I don't see how it is going to get worse. Once miners stop passing dust on for free, clients will have less incentive to try to use dust so there will be less dust accumulation.

http://bitcoin.lift-institute.com/killing-the-dust/

[ArcologyPrime]

The way you deal with dust is simple; just transfer all your dust with a larger purchase every so often.  

Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, sending 1.00000001 btc doesnt' generate any more issue than 1BTC would, as long as they're aged together, and the btc can be sent in a single transaction entry after they've been in your wallet for a certain number of blocks.

The devs should write some sort of algorithm that cleans the dust out of the bottom of everyone's wallet automatically after it's aged enough to be sent in a single transaction.

[RobertRibbeck]

I'm not sure what the value is now, but I would bet it is a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the BTC market cap.

And I don't see how it is going to get worse. Once miners stop passing dust on for free, clients will have less incentive to try to use dust so there will be less dust accumulation.

http://bitcoin.lift-institute.com/killing-the-dust/

you just made my point with that link

its is a problem that is embedded in bit coin

[Le Happy Merchant]

I wonder how many wallets have coin dust that will set forever never being able to be circulated because of the transaction fee structure

The answer is none. If the value of Bitcoin rises high enough the dust will be worth transferring, and the fees will have fallen below the critical level to call those balances dust anymore.

[RobertRibbeck]

I wonder how many wallets have coin dust that will set forever never being able to be circulated because of the transaction fee structure

The answer is none. If the value of Bitcoin rises high enough the dust will be worth transferring, and the fees will have fallen below the critical level to call those balances dust anymore.

SAY WHAT
there are no wallets with dust
what planet did you drop in from

transfer fees wil change -- dua WHEN - haven't yet

they built in a limit to the number of coins but there is NO limit on the records of every bit of dust
and we are no where near the number of coins yet
some time the records of each transaction will exceed the number of coins

[dmcdad]

I'm not sure what the value is now, but I would bet it is a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the BTC market cap.

And I don't see how it is going to get worse. Once miners stop passing dust on for free, clients will have less incentive to try to use dust so there will be less dust accumulation.

http://bitcoin.lift-institute.com/killing-the-dust/

you just made my point with that link

its is a problem that is embedded in bit coin

Sorry, but I understand neither your logic nor arguments. Nor do I see anywhere in that link that makes your point. Here is the summary at the end:

Bitcoins were created as a money alternative, and no person in their right mind would demand to pay/receive half of a cent, or even less. If the value of bitcoin was to rise 10 fold, the dust threshold would certainly be lowered again to match the real value of bitcoins. We should welcome this change to the protocol as it will stabilize and secure the growth of the bitcoin network while it becomes more and more relevant in the “real” economy.

Which is quite the opposite conclusion that you have (that somehow the new dust prevention threshold will cause the end of bitcoin). Again, I'm open to debating a coherent argument but I just don't understand what your argument is. Walk me through step-by-step (pretend I'm a bit slow, because maybe I am) exactly how this is going to doom BTC.

[Le Happy Merchant]

SAY WHAT
there are no wallets with dust
what planet did you drop in from

I didn't say no wallets had dust, I said that there are none that will 'never ever' be able to be used simply because they are dust.

transfer fees wil change -- dua WHEN - haven't yet

Transfer fees will change when it makes sense for them to, don't be retarded. If 1 BTC reaches $10,000 for example, I predict that the minimum transaction size and the minimum fee would both be reduced.

they built in a limit to the number of coins but there is NO limit on the records of every bit of dust

And why would we need one? The dust eventually becomes valuable.

and we are no where near the number of coins yet

We are more than half-way to the maximum number of coins, don't act like we are just scratching the surface.

some time the records of each transaction will exceed the number of coins

This has already happened, and we already have a solution for when it gets too big. Ever heard of pruning the blockchain?

[RobertRibbeck]

I'm not sure what the value is now, but I would bet it is a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the BTC market cap.

And I don't see how it is going to get worse. Once miners stop passing dust on for free, clients will have less incentive to try to use dust so there will be less dust accumulation.

http://bitcoin.lift-institute.com/killing-the-dust/

you just made my point with that link

its is a problem that is embedded in bit coin

Sorry, but I understand neither your logic nor arguments. Nor do I see anywhere in that link that makes your point. Here is the summary at the end:

Bitcoins were created as a money alternative, and no person in their right mind would demand to pay/receive half of a cent, or even less. If the value of bitcoin was to rise 10 fold, the dust threshold would certainly be lowered again to match the real value of bitcoins. We should welcome this change to the protocol as it will stabilize and secure the growth of the bitcoin network while it becomes more and more relevant in the “real” economy.

Which is quite the opposite conclusion that you have (that somehow the new dust prevention threshold will cause the end of bitcoin). Again, I'm open to debating a coherent argument but I just don't understand what your argument is. Walk me through step-by-step (pretend I'm a bit slow, because maybe I am) exactly how this is going to doom BTC.

they acknowledge there is a problem with dust ... fractional transfers
their answer is a ban on small transfers - essentially a boycott - which really does not eliminate the problem

and under lining the problem is that every wallet contains the record of every transaction ever made 
there is no expire date no way to ferret out old data and keep things current
volumes and volumes of worthless information

[randomguy7]

I wish I'd get a buck every time bitcoin is "doomed" lol

[RobertRibbeck]

SAY WHAT
there are no wallets with dust
what planet did you drop in from

I didn't say no wallets had dust, I said that there are none that will 'never ever' be able to be used simply because they are dust.

transfer fees wil change -- dua WHEN - haven't yet

Transfer fees will change when it makes sense for them to, don't be retarded. If 1 BTC reaches $10,000 for example, I predict that the minimum transaction size and the minimum fee would both be reduced.

they built in a limit to the number of coins but there is NO limit on the records of every bit of dust

And why would we need one? The dust eventually becomes valuable.

and we are no where near the number of coins yet

We are more than half-way to the maximum number of coins, don't act like we are just scratching the surface.

some time the records of each transaction will exceed the number of coins

This has already happened, and we already have a solution for when it gets too big. Ever heard of pruning the blockchain?

Stop trolling for a fight
name calling will not be tolerated and has been reported

[Akka]

transfer fees wil change -- dua WHEN - haven't yet

Actually they have already. In the new Bitcoin-QT version they have dropped 80% (from 0.0005 per KB to 0.0001 per KB) as they have before. In the first version (if I remember correctly, not a 100% sure) they where 0.01 per KB, so they have already dropped to 100th of their original and they will again if it becomes economical to accept lower fees (BTC price rises).

If Dust becomes worth anything it won't be dust any more.

[RobertRibbeck]

transfer fees wil change -- dua WHEN - haven't yet

Actually they have already. In the new Bitcoin-QT version they have dropped 80% (from 0.0005 per KB to 0.0001 per KB) as they have before. In the first version (if I remember correctly, not a 100% sure) they where 0.01 per KB, so they have already dropped to 100th of their original and they will again if it becomes economical to accept lower fees (BTC price rises).

If Dust becomes worth anything it won't be dust any more.

When did this take place
the version I have which I thought was up to date is still saying .01 BTC / 1k

EDIT
  ok my bad getting 8.2 now  I had 8.1

UPDATE
  8.2 helps  I was able to transfer most of my dust down to .0005 BTC

[dmcdad]

Yeah, I think I'm done here. Something might doom BTC, but dust isn't it.

[DublinBrian]

Its true that it is perfectly rational for an individual to discard an address with 0.0002 BTC or less because it is insufficient to cover the fee for spending it or combining it with another balance.

If one million people do that then 1,000,000 x 0.0002 = 200 BTC will be lost from the bitcoin money supply.

If that happens each year, then the money supply will experience a resulting annual deflation of 200/11,000,000 = 0.00182%

Thats nothing to worry about IMO

[RobertRibbeck]

Its true that it is perfectly rational for an individual to discard an address with 0.0002 BTC or less because it is insufficient to cover the fee for spending it or combining it with another balance.

If one million people do that then 1,000,000 x 0.0002 = 200 BTC will be lost from the bitcoin money supply.

If that happens each year, then the money supply will experience a resulting annual deflation of 200/11,000,000 = 0.00182%

Thats nothing to worry about IMO

at current price 200BTC is $24,000

[Eastwind]

Today's dust is tomorrow's gold. The transaction fee will reduce in the future.

[Le Happy Merchant]

Stop trolling for a fight
name calling will not be tolerated and has been reported

All I said was 'Don't be retarded' I never claimed that you are, or already were, I just told you not to be. Also, if you can't stand arguing, don't make such uneducated claims.