.

[Carlton Banks]

Who would be willing to stick their neck out like this?

A shill, perhaps?

[BitcoinAshley]

You guys are missing the point... This means COIN TAINT.

It is not "self regulation" it is a central Bitcoin Taint Organization that tracks which coins were used for illegal activities and puts them on a centrally-controlled taint list. Most large Bitcoin companies will participate.

Say Dude A sells some pot on Silk Road. He receives the BTC and sends them to a mixer and then to Dude B via IRC-OTC after selling them for a wire transfer or something. Dude B sends them to somebody else. Eventually they wind up at Bitcoin100 Charity where they are sent to "Starving Kids in Moojoombo Village, Congo Fund."

Representative of SKiMVC charity visits the kids and says "www.bitcoin100.org Bitcoin100 just donated $1,000 to us, so we have enough money to install a village well and you won't have to walk 5 miles a day for water anymore!" Yayy! Everyone cheering, people dancing!
Next day, representative visits again, this time with sad look on her face. "Sorry, Bitpay wouldn't pay us for the Bitcoins, they just returned them, saying the Bitcoin Taint Council tainted them. We looked into the possibility of selling them on the black market OTC to people who didn't mind the taint, for lower than spot value, but our attorney advised against it saying we could be subject to massive fines or loss of our NPO status. Sorry, no well."

Why were they tainted? By the time they had been sent to the charity, the council's blockchain explorer had tracked them and discovered they were (1) Used for Pot sale, which is illegal in some countries. (2) Sent through a mixer, all coins sent through mixers will be tainted. (3) Sold on IRC-OTC which violates AML/FINCEN regulations.

I can think of a thousand scenarios where we could be screwed, including for "crimes" which are not really crimes. The War on Drugs will be extended to Bitcoins. Just like paypal, anyone who does not align with the subjective morality of the Taint Council will have their "account" frozen via blacklist. ALL miners will have their coins tainted unless they are registered as a FINCEN "money transmitter" and pay taxes. There will be a whitelist for mined coins.

This isn't tinfoil hat worst-case scenario bullshit. This is what is actually being proposed by people high up in the Bitcoin World. Peter Vessenes warns that there will be no grandfathering of coins. So if any of your coins were used by PirateAt40 or a silk road pot-selling teenager in the past, they will be unspendable for 99% of merchants/receivers. This could be 1% of your stash or it could be 59%.

Oh, who wants to make a bet? The Supreme Coin Taint Council will have a buyback option where you sell your tainted coins to them for 50% of spot. Then, they untaint the coins and release them back in to circulation.

This is just what Paypal does. This is just what government regulatory agencies do. Most U.S. dollars have cocaine residue on them but I can still spend them just fine. Now we're trying to make BTC worse than the USD? Worrying about whether coins are tainted every time I receive them? What do you think this will do to the price of BTC if they can be randomly tainted with no prior notice?

Beware of any "self regulation" talk because I can guarantee you they are talking about COIN TAINT. And if large businesses/organizations in the Bitcoin world start operating from a centrally controlled Taint List, I will sell all of my coins into other cryptocurrencies as well as precious metals - you should too, because that would be the end of bitcoin.

[QuestionAuthority]

You can't calm down the Nazi Party by agreeing to work with them. You don't join the Nazi Party to crush them. You can't destroy them using their rules. You must change the game and rig it in your favor. Bitcoin does this naturally. The Nazis don't see a way to defeat it using their current armament so their looking for a trusted scientist to defect and turn the tide. Don't do it!

[justusranvier]

because that would be the end of bitcoin.

...in the United States.

[acoindr]

Beware of any "self regulation" talk because I can guarantee you they are talking about COIN TAINT. And if large businesses/organizations in the Bitcoin world start operating from a centrally controlled Taint List, I will sell all of my coins into other cryptocurrencies as well as precious metals - you should too, because that would be the end of bitcoin.

You do realize a currency can't be devalued with "taint" don't you? That defeats the whole point of a currency. This is the same reason the dollars in your pocket likely have trace amounts of cocaine on them. It's not the fault of the currency unit what it was used for. Likewise nobody would be expected to check and not honor currency units that are singled out for some reason.

You can track U.S. dollars by serial number and put them on a taint list now. Why do you think that hasn't been done?

[BitcoinAshley]

Beware of any "self regulation" talk because I can guarantee you they are talking about COIN TAINT. And if large businesses/organizations in the Bitcoin world start operating from a centrally controlled Taint List, I will sell all of my coins into other cryptocurrencies as well as precious metals - you should too, because that would be the end of bitcoin.

You do realize a currency can't be devalued with "taint" don't you? That defeats the whole point of a currency. This is the same reason the dollars in your pocket likely have trace amounts of cocaine on them. It's not the fault of the currency unit what it was used for. Likewise nobody would be expected to check and not honor currency units that are singled out for some reason.

You can track U.S. dollars by serial number and put them on a taint list now. Why do you think that hasn't been done?

Let me explain.
Bitcoins can be tracked.
A centralized list, participated in by Bitpay, Coinbase, MtGox and the other major exchanges, and a select few other major companies would greatly reduce the value of coins that were tainted. Here we have a big portion of the market saying "We won't accept these coins; they aren't worth anything to us since in the past they were sent through a mixer or allegedly used for "illegal" activities."
It's harder with the USD because people aren't accustomed to checking serial numbers. But if wallet clients and online wallets started including taint-check plugins that checked coins with a centralized taint list, it would be easy to tell which ones you couldn't sell at an exchange, which ones you couldn't use at a bitpay-accepting site, which coins it'd be hard to pass off to anyone who participates in the centralized taint list. It's already happened; MtGox does its own taint tracking and in the past, locked some coins that came from Tradehill because they had originated from a known scammer.

because that would be the end of bitcoin.

...in the United States.

Well, if MtGox, Bitpay, and a few of the internationally used companies participated, it would affect more than just the U.S.

[justusranvier]

Well, if MtGox, Bitpay, and a few of the internationally used companies participated, it would affect more than just the U.S.

I think it's plausible to assume that new companies based out of China, Russia, and even Latin America would emerge to take up the slack.

Of course, the existence of those companies probably wouldn't do much good for the Bitcoin users still stuck in the US...

[acoindr]

... that checked coins with a centralized taint list ...

Nobody of much significance to the Bitcoin economy would participate in such a scheme let me assure you. It makes no sense.

[Carlton Banks]

... that checked coins with a centralized taint list ...

Nobody of much significance to the Bitcoin economy would participate in such a scheme let me assure you. It makes no sense.

a very significant shill, perhaps? (o' Satoshi, give me the strength to continue)

[CasinoBit]

Mathematics are irrefutable, people are extremely gullible, stupid and are not programmatic, they could probably bribe Gavin to update bitcoin-qt in the download section with any code within their personal whim. Every man has its price, given the opportunity (almost) everyone would rather relax in some fancy hotel on a tropical island instead of endangering their family.

[Melbustus]

And if large businesses/organizations in the Bitcoin world start operating from a centrally controlled Taint List, I will sell all of my coins into other cryptocurrencies as well as precious metals - you should too, because that would be the end of bitcoin.

Indeed. Taint removes one of the key properties of an ideal money from bitcoin: fungibility. If bitcoins became un-fungibile in practice, I'd seriously have to rethink the benefits of bitcoin, both as a transactional unit, and a store of value.

Generally I think it's a good thing when bitcoin businesses do what they can to be as mainstream as possible, including complying with regulatory bodies, etc. But this taint issue is important to get right.

That said, don't tainted coins move rapidly through the economy, such that everyone pretty much has tainted coins (like cocaine on $100 bills)? I've never studied this, but recall reading it a couple times here... So if that's true, maybe it'll just prove grossly impractical for organizations to refuse tainted coins anyways.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Indeed. Taint removes one of the key properties of an ideal money from bitcoin: fungibility. If bitcoins became un-fungibile in practice, I'd seriously have to rethink the benefits of bitcoin, both as a transactional unit, and a store of value.

This full stop.  I would go further and say "Fungibility is a required aspect for a medium of exchange".  Period.  It isn't something optional or cool it is part of the DNA that makes something a medium of exchange.  If Bitcoin doesn't have fungibility, then it isn't a medium of exchange, and is worthless, a failed experiment.

I guarantee you the first time a merchant though no fault of their own accepts Bitcoins that later the "we need to control everything" cartel says "sorry those are tainted and worthless" that is the last time that merchant will use Bitcoin.  The resulting news story will mean hundreds if not thousands of merchants will cross Bitcoin off their list before they even start.

Loss of fungibility is death for a medium of exchange.  Period.  There is no other outcome.

[adpinbr]

This comes by way of someone close to Bitcoin discussions in Washington, DC.  Apparently, FinCEN agents are looking for members of the Bitcoin community to form a self-regulatory organization with voluntary approval procedures to work with financial regulators.

If anyone at the Bitcoin Foundation sees this post, I would be willing to serve with such an organization.  

Fuck Washington, DC.
Fuck FinCEN.
Fuck Bitcoin Foundation.

So long as one is not subject to US jurisdiction, this sentiment is a matter of personal taste.  However, if one transacts with Americans and especially if one resides within the USA, this sentiment can lead to unfortunate consequences, unless one has closed all of one's bank and credit card accounts.

Obviously, Bitcoin per se is beyond direct regulation, and all the regulation talk is about the USD/Bitcoin interface.  However, until we can pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. directly with Bitcoin—and I do not mean using Bitcoin to buy Gyft cards, as wonderful a development as that is—we will not escape that interface, if we want to integrate Bitcoin into our financial lives.  One day, perhaps, but not today.

FinCEN, the Fed, the US Treasury, FATF, et al. are notoriously jealous of their legacy system, as profoundly broken as it is, and if we insist on using it, then we will be subject to their regulations and statutes.  I'm not suggesting that this is a good thing.

What do the individuals who bluster impotently on these discussion boards think that they are achieving?  Waggling one's little bottom at Sauron does not make the Forces of Darkness quake in fear.  It makes the community look like a pack of snot-nosed little punks.

Real revolutionaries embrace disruptive engineering, entrepreneurship, and entertainment.

Rather than fling boogers at men with guns, badges, drones, and warrantless wiretaps, we should be spending our efforts developing P2P exchange networks, real financial services (including car loans and mortgages), full-service retail outlets (for food, clothing, and other consumer goods), and large-scale outreach initiatives to get the masses on our side.

Until then, and as long as Mt. Gox 'suffers a DDOS attack' every time someone refreshes its website more than twice in a minute, bluster makes us look silly.

Why are people excited about gyft, yet ignore bit plastic and multiple other prepaid debit cards charged with bitcoins that allow you to use bitcoins everywhere rather than select retail chains?

Also this is a great idea.
1) we do need to comply until we can fully self sustain our own economy, once we have the power we can "re-negotiate" our terms of compliance.
2) We really need self regulation as a way to know who's a scammer and who is legit...

[Lohoris]

Why are people excited about gyft, yet ignore bit plastic and multiple other prepaid debit cards charged with bitcoins that allow you to use bitcoins everywhere rather than select retail chains?

bitplastic doesn't even have https enabled for the registration form... they have a broken image in their homepage, and they require a "security question", which is one of the main dangers to security ever.

I wouldn't trust them with my money.

[oakpacific]

You guys are missing the point... This means COIN TAINT.

It is not "self regulation" it is a central Bitcoin Taint Organization that tracks which coins were used for illegal activities and puts them on a centrally-controlled taint list. Most large Bitcoin companies will participate.

Say Dude A sells some pot on Silk Road. He receives the BTC and sends them to a mixer and then to Dude B via IRC-OTC after selling them for a wire transfer or something. Dude B sends them to somebody else. Eventually they wind up at Bitcoin100 Charity where they are sent to "Starving Kids in Moojoombo Village, Congo Fund."

Representative of SKiMVC charity visits the kids and says "www.bitcoin100.org Bitcoin100 just donated $1,000 to us, so we have enough money to install a village well and you won't have to walk 5 miles a day for water anymore!" Yayy! Everyone cheering, people dancing!
Next day, representative visits again, this time with sad look on her face. "Sorry, Bitpay wouldn't pay us for the Bitcoins, they just returned them, saying the Bitcoin Taint Council tainted them. We looked into the possibility of selling them on the black market OTC to people who didn't mind the taint, for lower than spot value, but our attorney advised against it saying we could be subject to massive fines or loss of our NPO status. Sorry, no well."

Why were they tainted? By the time they had been sent to the charity, the council's blockchain explorer had tracked them and discovered they were (1) Used for Pot sale, which is illegal in some countries. (2) Sent through a mixer, all coins sent through mixers will be tainted. (3) Sold on IRC-OTC which violates AML/FINCEN regulations.

I can think of a thousand scenarios where we could be screwed, including for "crimes" which are not really crimes. The War on Drugs will be extended to Bitcoins. Just like paypal, anyone who does not align with the subjective morality of the Taint Council will have their "account" frozen via blacklist. ALL miners will have their coins tainted unless they are registered as a FINCEN "money transmitter" and pay taxes. There will be a whitelist for mined coins.

This isn't tinfoil hat worst-case scenario bullshit. This is what is actually being proposed by people high up in the Bitcoin World. Peter Vessenes warns that there will be no grandfathering of coins. So if any of your coins were used by PirateAt40 or a silk road pot-selling teenager in the past, they will be unspendable for 99% of merchants/receivers. This could be 1% of your stash or it could be 59%.

Oh, who wants to make a bet? The Supreme Coin Taint Council will have a buyback option where you sell your tainted coins to them for 50% of spot. Then, they untaint the coins and release them back in to circulation.

This is just what Paypal does. This is just what government regulatory agencies do. Most U.S. dollars have cocaine residue on them but I can still spend them just fine. Now we're trying to make BTC worse than the USD? Worrying about whether coins are tainted every time I receive them? What do you think this will do to the price of BTC if they can be randomly tainted with no prior notice?

Beware of any "self regulation" talk because I can guarantee you they are talking about COIN TAINT. And if large businesses/organizations in the Bitcoin world start operating from a centrally controlled Taint List, I will sell all of my coins into other cryptocurrencies as well as precious metals - you should too, because that would be the end of bitcoin.

Such measures could do exactly nothing to stop illicit traders using Bitcoin, with just current technology they could find ways to easily circumvent the system, even if all major exchanges refuse to accept coins which are not "positively tainted".

[Raoul Duke]

[hayek]

This is a lot more reasonable than one has usually come to expect. Watching with interest

No, it's not.

This is how it happens. You don't put your people in with strangers.

You bring a minority of the strangers in to your organization. Assimilation I guess.

in b4 borg.

[UncleBobs]

I'm sure you mean well, but this is very depressing:

It appears that OECD regulators recognize this and are willing to give those of us who are more interested in making money by the boatload than in taunting Sauron the benefit of the doubt...

If you are more interested in "making money by the boatload" than in tackling Sauron, I suggest that there may be better ways.  Have you considered becoming a plastic surgeon, for instance? 

Bitcoin is about bringing Sauron down.  If you are just in it for the money, I don't think you get it, regardless of your long experience.

[cryptoanarchist]

Bitcoin is about bringing Sauron down.  If you are just in it for the money, I don't think you get it, regardless of your long experience.

^^this +1

If we are using Sauron here to mean the European Central Bank, the Fed, the FATF, the IMF, et al., then the idea of a single protocol bringing that down is rather quaint.  For that to happen, Bitcoin's adoption would have to be more widespread than moneypunk geeks, suburban 'anarchists', and the odd drug dealer and gun runner here and there.  The Libertarian Party has a better chance of getting one of their own elected President of the USA than that has of happening.

This is not to say that the current regime is robust.  It is rotting from the inside and has been for a long, long time.  It is like a wooden bridge that is showing signs age and wear.  If Bitcoin happens to be the last truck to drive across that bridge before it collapses—as well it may be... or not—to say that Bitcoin brought down Sauron would be overstatement.

Maybe not bitcoin by itself, but the concept of cryptocurrencies is INDEED a game changer. Even if their system wasn't "rotting", fast and free anonymous online transactions are going to win out over time simply because they appeal to the financial interests to all of us. There are people getting rich off doing things they otherwise couldn't with bitcoin - that says it all.

...how could anyone take seriously the idea that bitcoiners are going to usher in the New Age of Liberty and Freedom?

For the reasons stated above, they don't have to take us seriously. The people that don't want to use bitcoin can continue being regulated and pay excessive fees and taxes, and they won't do so well against those that do use bitcoin.

For a more clear picture of what I'm talking about:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkDaJwat6ic

[franky1]

everyone here is talking about fincen regulating bitcoin..

and here was me thinking bitcoin was free from national governments. i myself dont do drugs and hate the fact that bitcoin WAS (pre2012) propagandised as the drug dealers currency. but i far prefer the drug taint to be diluted down through natural mainstreaming efforts of adding new legit businesses to the mix. and NOT through regulating bitcoin, which would involve seizing coins/taxing coins which in the end would result in government ownership.

imagine the government taking 20% of your coins per year.. add on the coins seized through crimes, aswell as non crime related coins found in the same wallet address as crime tainted coins, within 5 years they own the majority stake. 

hundreds of years ago a group of people volunteered that they needed a leader to control the masses and volunteered that some basic rules and laws should be in place to keep the peace.. now look how this volunteered group we call government own our FIAT  spending arses!

oh well if bitcoin does become regulated by the bitcoin foundation.. there is always litecoin