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Question: What is the future of cryptocurrencies in terms of privacy?
Bitcoin as it is today
Bitcoin with the aid of lightning network
A fully anonymous cryptocurrency like Zcash
Monero
None of the above

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Author Topic: So how much privacy do we really need?  (Read 8060 times)
Getcoinsite
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October 27, 2017, 02:22:35 AM
 #121

Either we keep the blockchain public for everybody or we don't.

The main idea of bitcoin is the decentralization and independence of governments. This means that it's not possible to block a normal user from seeing your transaction history but allowing your government to do that so they can "track criminals" without giving them too much power.

People can get a little more privacy by not re-using their addresses. This way is harder to link all the payments to a single individual.
you cant just rely on the addresses because the coin address needs legitimate and exact one,you must present a government IDs before making an account in which you must indicate your permanent address or the address in your ID it self,so by then the government is 100% involved in your tratsactions
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October 27, 2017, 01:06:36 PM
 #122

So far I have seen some people arguing for 100% privacy, and some for (pseudo)privacy as it is now in bitcoin. (It is pseudo-privacy and not privacy, you can't be 100% anonymous with your transactions on a public blockchain free for anyone to view, no matter what tricks you use like Tor, mixers etc - if you are still not convinced there are several articles/academic papers out there that show exactly that).

I would suggest that to concisely answer the question, you have to look at the big picture, not yourself as an individual.

Let's say I am using fiat money. I get paid my salary to my bank account, I pay my bills, my doctor, I buy my vacation and my sex toys.
Q: Do I have the right to keep these transactions private?
A: Of course I do!  I don't anyone to be able to take a picture of my entire life just by looking at these transactions (not my friend, my neighbor, my employer or the government). Nor do I want to advertise my savings amounts to the entire world.
Q: Does bitcoin (as it is today) help me keep these transactions private?
A: No (see above). => Bitcoin as it is today can not be used as a total fiat currency replacement.

Now let's say I am an illegal materials/goods trader (drugs? child pornography? human trafficker?) or I am otherwise engaged in some criminal activity (money laundering? blackmailing? scamming?)
Q: Do I have the right to keep these transactions private?
A: NO. Authorities will have to suspend your privacy rights if you are suspect of taking part into illegal activities.
Q: Should authorities "unmask" your private transactions in such cases?
A: Yes. If you are part of an organized and lawful society you should think the same. If not, go find a place to live in some anarchist country on in the jungle with the monkeys.
Q: Can a 100% private - anonymous cryptocurrency (Zcash?) be auditable and accountable for such illegal transactions?
A: No. => Such a currency can not be used as a total fiat currency replacement.

Now you might argue that Bitcoin (or some other cryptocurrency) might not totally replace our fiat currencies but could somehow be a global-"subcurrency" that could be used for some types of transactions (e.g. capital transfer across countries). Such thing might be a possibility.
But those who dream ourselves living our lives only with cryptocurrencies, I think that a cryptocurrency that satisfies the properties "anonymous" and "accountable" will have to be invented first.

I added a poll to this post to see what your opinions are.

Exactly what I think as well... It is important to be able to see where transactions are going to and from, but if you want a healthy economy to thrive you can't be able to see EVERYONES transactions.  I feel like you have to have opt-in only transparency and not default transparency.  This is why Monero's view key is the best thing since sliced bread, imo. 

And it's not like if Monero is best at the whole transparency ordeal that Bitcoin is obsolete... Bitcoin is good at what it does; which I feel is a 'decentralized' public store of wealth... I put 'decentralized' in quotes because I feel mining is super centralized and ASIC resistance is a big key.

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bomberb17
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October 27, 2017, 03:03:49 PM
 #123

"View keys" in Monero and Zcash do indeed allow someone to see a 'hidden' transaction, but if you are doing illegal stuff, I doubt you would just voluntarily provide a view key to the authorities..!
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October 28, 2017, 01:51:26 AM
 #124

The amount of privacy and/or anonymity someone needs much depends on where they live, and under which government and jurisdiction. Seeing multiple solutions next to Bitcoin brings the possibility of diversity and gives users choice to use what they need to be safe in their personal situation.

yeah i agree that it really depends in the persons activity , if hes doing illegal activities like buying drugs, carding, hacking and scamming people then he really needs some serious privacy or anonymity but if hes just an average joe that dont do monkey business then it doesnt really matter and i believe most of the people are not botherd about this issue.


The thing I like about bitcoin is the privacy it offers,and no government or financial institution is in the middle. The only thing that is not good about this privacy issue if it will be used on illegal activity,there should be a control unit. But nevertheless privacy issue doesnt really matter the level of privacy issue with bitcoin for now is very efficent and effective.

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Getcoinsite
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October 28, 2017, 02:59:44 AM
 #125

We all know that Bitcoin transactions are not anonymous but pseudo-anonymous, resulting in many problems like tainted coins etc.
Some cryptocurrencies offer significant more privacy (Monero, Zcash etc) but at a cost.
However my question is more fundamental: How 'much' privacy do we really need for a widely-adopted cryptocurrency?
I believe Bitcoin as-is won't get adopted for everyday transactions. Nobody would want showing his buying habits to the whole world (imagine how many ads and flyers you would get).
On the other hand, I don't believe cryptocurrencies that offer too much privacy will get adopted either, since they will be used for criminal activities and eventually get banned.
My feeling is that we want a currency that offers privacy to some extent, without revealing our transaction to the world but still be possible for law-enforcement to track illegal activities.
What do you think?

I disagree with both of your predictions. The lack or abundance of privacy probably won't affect the adoption, since Bitcoin is private enough and if you are careful you can reach a near perfect privacy, but you can also reach complete transparency if you desire so, it is completely up to the user.

Bitcoin is supposed to be used in way that you use different addresses for every transaction for security and privacy so there shouldn't be any problems with the lack of it. While other more private cryptocurrencies won't get banned either, since that is near impossible as well, it is hard to ban something that is decentralized and ever adopting like that.

I don't see a reason why we wouldn't have a soft-fork down the road for adding confidential transactions so people can use them if they want.
thats right,i think bitcoin privacy is enough for every user to feel secure,and contented ..this thing only matters for those user in which involved into other illegal activities or those dont wanna put taxes on their income,although for now no government interference so far,but when time comes that government put taxes on bitcoin user i dont think it would be problem coz its every government rights to claim whats for them.
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October 28, 2017, 04:25:52 AM
 #126

I believe in the world of crypto .. Many find it difficult to stay careful.... Its is decentralized but yet government need to get involved to be able to track criminal ...we have lots of them...

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October 28, 2017, 06:34:37 AM
 #127

It will always be hard to maintain anonymity when a well financed state adversary wants to know your business. But privacy is not the same as total anonymity. Privacy implies that people generally are not aware of your affairs, not that no one has the capability to discover them.

I'm okay with strong privacy from others because I don't believe that true anonymity is possible given the copious amount of searchable data we are all constantly leaking.
jinksters09
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October 28, 2017, 03:03:23 PM
 #128

We need to be very careful in order to prevent hackers to hack our account. IT have many ways to hacked an account so never disclose any information that can use as a hint for them. Privacy is very important to secure our indentity so be careful on whatever information we post in public.
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October 29, 2017, 02:07:01 AM
 #129

Anonymity is not only for criminals and drug dealers. Anonymity is essential for everyday users, but is also required for businesses. Imagine a business buying and selling in bitcoin. I don't think if you run this business you would want your competitors to know how much you sell, how much you buy and who you buy from. The transactions can't be linked by a regular user, but they can by professionals.

I guess Anonymity is not just for drug dealers or criminals. Sometimes ordinary people like us also need Anonymity to maintain our Privacy. But if a browser history is needed to understand our habits, I think we need it for our benefit. However, some parties use it to threaten us.

Privacy that I think is when we chat with people we love. I do not think it should be spit or spread, and not everyone should know.

If it is a transaction history issue, I do not really know if it should be kept secret or not. I do not think it should always be hidden. Because maybe it will make it easier for the authorities to catch the criminals.

ETFbitcoin
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October 29, 2017, 04:35:36 PM
 #130

I think current bitcoin transaction is acceptable for some users as long as they only use bitcoin address once. Monero/Zcash idea for anonymity are amazing, but i doubt it will work well on bitcoin because the transaction size is far larger compared with bitcoin which means it's not good when more people adopt and use bitcoin regularly Roll Eyes
If someone need huge amount of privacy, honestly i think they shouldn't use bitcoin (or use bitcoin but with extreme caution).

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October 29, 2017, 06:36:13 PM
 #131

Actually that is the feature of Altcoin is offering although Bitcoin is somehow traceable (but likely hard for those have no idea how to use blockchain tracer) but they have their point that transactions should be made to become anonymous for privacy but on the other hand that's what cyber criminals wants.
States and government Regulations will do their part by regulating crypto currency that is legal to use to protect the public from crimes, scams and other interests.
That's why each country today are on their way to build guidelines and laws to protect their own economy like banning exchange and using Bitcoin for crimes.

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October 29, 2017, 08:53:36 PM
 #132

Actually that is the feature of Altcoin is offering although Bitcoin is somehow traceable (but likely hard for those have no idea how to use blockchain tracer) but they have their point that transactions should be made to become anonymous for privacy but on the other hand that's what cyber criminals wants.
States and government Regulations will do their part by regulating crypto currency that is legal to use to protect the public from crimes, scams and other interests.
That's why each country today are on their way to build guidelines and laws to protect their own economy like banning exchange and using Bitcoin for crimes.

There are hackers that will steal this personal information, they always do. There are corrupted officials that will abuse it, there always is. There will always be alternatives for money laundering, like we saw at Panama papers. The point is this, who is a bigger threat? Small badly connected criminals that will use Bitcoin as their only means of anonymity or professional criminals that have been doing this for centuries and hold all the power in the underground.

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October 30, 2017, 03:58:24 PM
 #133

There is a lot of political incentive to uncover the users of Bitcoin and other pseudonymous altcoins. This is one of the reasons I hit the privacy drum. It is important we understand the Internet may not stay as open and inviting as it is today, and payment mechanisms like Bitcoin will be put under heavy scrutiny the day freedom falls. Having security by design, as seen in Monero and Zcash, will then be a positive attribute.
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October 30, 2017, 09:46:42 PM
 #134

As for me - I think that giving 100% anonymosly to cryptocurrency transaction is too much for now. There are many criminals that would like to use it.
I belive that it is fair to store IP's, but not my personal info, it can help our goverments to prevent many crimes


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October 31, 2017, 12:03:29 AM
 #135

Since bitcoin is described as anonymous cryptocurrency because we can send and receive bitcoins without our personal identity but im not really believe that this is perfect anymomity to our privacy. for example if you used blockchain every transaction you engage is stored in blockchain. so on my opinion dont link your address to your identity to keep your privacy safe. years ago i used multibit to increase my anymomity but sad to say multibit is not supported now.
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October 31, 2017, 01:39:21 AM
 #136

Not much privacy but the privacy which may always leads to the decentralzation and freedom from government should not be left out because that's  what make bitcoin unique that's  what makes bitcoin  so popular nowadays viewing of one's  buying is important to double check if there were illegal transactions going but not at the point that the privacy of the user will be violated like in banking secrecy is important just as viewing one's  important activities.
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October 31, 2017, 03:14:06 AM
 #137

As much as we can get because that's  why people trust in bitcoin because you are your own currency no intrevals from someone or somebody especially government but not the privacy that people can't  looked if you are into some illegal transactions which is not supposed to be tolerized in order to prevent the downfall of bitcoin.

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October 31, 2017, 06:13:28 AM
 #138

We all know that Bitcoin transactions are not anonymous but pseudo-anonymous, resulting in many problems like tainted coins etc.
Some cryptocurrencies offer significant more privacy (Monero, Zcash etc) but at a cost.
However my question is more fundamental: How 'much' privacy do we really need for a widely-adopted cryptocurrency?
I believe Bitcoin as-is won't get adopted for everyday transactions. Nobody would want showing his buying habits to the whole world (imagine how many ads and flyers you would get).
On the other hand, I don't believe cryptocurrencies that offer too much privacy will get adopted either, since they will be used for criminal activities and eventually get banned.
My feeling is that we want a currency that offers privacy to some extent, without revealing our transaction to the world but still be possible for law-enforcement to track illegal activities.
What do you think?
After Bitcoin was created people have been so fast forward that others started to create their own cryptocurrency, I hope there is a coin having all the facility you are talking about. If there isn't let's just hope that in future it will be created.
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November 01, 2017, 12:07:36 AM
 #139

So far I have seen some people arguing for 100% privacy, and some for (pseudo)privacy as it is now in bitcoin. (It is pseudo-privacy and not privacy, you can't be 100% anonymous with your transactions on a public blockchain free for anyone to view, no matter what tricks you use like Tor, mixers etc - if you are still not convinced there are several articles/academic papers out there that show exactly that).

I would suggest that to concisely answer the question, you have to look at the big picture, not yourself as an individual.

Let's say I am using fiat money. I get paid my salary to my bank account, I pay my bills, my doctor, I buy my vacation and my sex toys.
Q: Do I have the right to keep these transactions private?
A: Of course I do!  I don't anyone to be able to take a picture of my entire life just by looking at these transactions (not my friend, my neighbor, my employer or the government). Nor do I want to advertise my savings amounts to the entire world.
Q: Does bitcoin (as it is today) help me keep these transactions private?
A: No (see above). => Bitcoin as it is today can not be used as a total fiat currency replacement.

Now let's say I am an illegal materials/goods trader (drugs? child pornography? human trafficker?) or I am otherwise engaged in some criminal activity (money laundering? blackmailing? scamming?)
Q: Do I have the right to keep these transactions private?
A: NO. Authorities will have to suspend your privacy rights if you are suspect of taking part into illegal activities.
Q: Should authorities "unmask" your private transactions in such cases?
A: Yes. If you are part of an organized and lawful society you should think the same. If not, go find a place to live in some anarchist country on in the jungle with the monkeys.
Q: Can a 100% private - anonymous cryptocurrency (Zcash?) be auditable and accountable for such illegal transactions?
A: No. => Such a currency can not be used as a total fiat currency replacement.

Now you might argue that Bitcoin (or some other cryptocurrency) might not totally replace our fiat currencies but could somehow be a global-"subcurrency" that could be used for some types of transactions (e.g. capital transfer across countries). Such thing might be a possibility.
But those who dream ourselves living our lives only with cryptocurrencies, I think that a cryptocurrency that satisfies the properties "anonymous" and "accountable" will have to be invented first.

I added a poll to this post to see what your opinions are.

This is very interesting.
I have to agree with you all the way.

However, even conceptually, it's difficult to see how we can have regulatory entities audit transactions, that are completely "anonymous" for everyone else, without being a central authority. This might require some form of zero knowledge proofs, in a zkSNARKs fashion. If you could prove to your legal authority that you did NOT do what they say you did (transaction wise), without compromising your anonymity, that would be a good first step.
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November 01, 2017, 01:39:39 AM
 #140

Different levels of privacy are necessary for different purposes, so I think having a range is not only important, it is necessary.

Take Quorum by JP Morgan for example. For blockchain to advance technological development and collaboration, absolute anonymity provided by Zcash is necessary so that competitors do not know what each other is doing. Otherwise, there is no way that the businesses that collaborate on Quorum would do so.

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