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Author Topic: S.MG - The Ministry of Games.  (Read 27106 times)
nubbins
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June 13, 2013, 12:41:29 AM
 #41

Actually I can't recall the last stock WB promoted. What was it?

ha!

Taken from the BH website, which makes mpex.co look like an art student's final acid trip:

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Dear Reader,

You probably know that I don't make stock recommendations.

No longer buying/selling Casascius coins. Beware scammers.
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June 13, 2013, 01:05:15 AM
 #42

Is there any known person associated with this company who has any experience in the games industry?

No.


That's all I need to know. Basically this is a gamble, not an informed investment. Q.E.D.


If I invest in a company I'm looking for management skills from the management, not technical skills or detailed knowledge that their underlings should have.  The majority of management skills transfer between ANY two areas of business if the companies are of a smilar size (some skills are needed more in small companies, others more in large ones).

MP is effectively the CEO/MD of MG.  The only skill-set that matters much is whether he has the skills needed to be the person in charge.  EVERYTHING else can be hired.  The decision of whether to invest or not rests solely on whether you:

a) Believe he CAN fill that role well (i.e. is capable).
b) Believe he WILL fill that role well (i.e. will deal fairly and honestly with investors and put in the effort needed).

Whilst it WOULD be a bonus if he already had experience running this type of business that's all it would be - a bonus.  If he's capable of filling the first leadership role then one of his first hires (or consults) will be someone with the industry-specific knowledge.

A large proportion of business failures are ones where the leader has MASSIVE knowledge of (and experience in) the industry/sector.  They fail because their experience and ability isn't in the role of leading a company.  Open two threads promoting 'businesses' on these forums and you'll almost certainly find at least one such - quite probably two (you may have to check back in a few months to be sure about the failure bit).

I'm not making any comment on MP's ability in this post - purely othat you're not even looking at the right thing to measure, so arguing over the measurement itself would be a total waste of time.
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June 13, 2013, 10:04:38 AM
 #43

Actually I can't recall the last stock WB promoted. What was it?

ha!

Taken from the BH website, which makes mpex.co look like an art student's final acid trip:

Quote
Dear Reader,

You probably know that I don't make stock recommendations.

Trick question is trick question.

But I guess now you're in a fine position to appreciate the heap of lols that were had over @ MPEx Fortress what with all the countless comments of the website business forum experts collected over the years. Obviously Berkshire doesn't look professional enough, and if only they added CSS....

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June 13, 2013, 11:29:22 AM
 #44

Actually I can't recall the last stock WB promoted. What was it?

ha!

Taken from the BH website, which makes mpex.co look like an art student's final acid trip:

Quote
Dear Reader,

You probably know that I don't make stock recommendations.

Trick question is trick question.

But I guess now you're in a fine position to appreciate the heap of lols that were had over @ MPEx Fortress what with all the countless comments of the website business forum experts collected over the years. Obviously Berkshire doesn't look professional enough, and if only they added CSS....

You are going at it the wrong way. Building a but-ugly web site that makes even blind eyes hurt, will not make you in to a good businessman.
Acting like a arrogant pompous ass, every changes you get, will not make you a good businessman nor give you understanding of finances.
BTW, your blog read like a diary of a sociopath.

Mircea Popescus business plan is directly from Southpark
Quote
   1. Collect Underpants Collect bitcoins
   2.  ?
   3. Profit

He has no idea what happens in #2 or #3 and last one needs a fat question mark because his reporting "standard" (LOL!) is one big joke and has already blown up on investors face (see S.DICE saga https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101902.1740)

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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June 13, 2013, 12:14:14 PM
 #45

Quote
looking at the marketplace it'd seem the item mall model is coming out victorious. You can't argue with the victor and so S.MG is open to having BTC-based item malls as a revenue model. On the theoretical side, looking at the strengths of BTC and so forth it'd seem RCE is the best fit. S.MG will try to promote that within reason.

I feel like S.MG is unprepared at this moment. Mainly due to the general consensus of the game community in regards to marketplace models, and if you fully represent S.MG, some of the things you've stated are contrary to the reality of the game industry. I don't want to rehash what many individuals smarter than I in the game development community have already analyzed in depth (http://www.bogost.com/blog/cow_clicker_1.shtml), so I'll briefly reference the attached article as needed.

Item malls are secondary revenue streams and have failed plenty of times due to this new developer mantra of "Fuck the user as long as we get paid." The reason games such as Team Fortress 2 have been successful in applying the mall-model is due to a previously developed user base surrounding a quality game. Sacrificing quality for revenue always leads to disaster, one may profit initially, however this always catches up to you (see NASDAQ:ZNGA).

A quote that really hits home:

In recent years, massively multiplayer online games (MMOs) frequently have been accused of doing little more than compelling players to keep playing; amounting to "brain hacks that exploit human psychology in order to make money"

This insults the user, and ostracizes would-be fans from what could be a very successful brand.

You stated:
Quote
The "boxed game" distribution model seems pretty much dead in the way the VHS tape is dead: nobody's arguing with the folk keeping their VHS collections around, but nobody is releasing anything on VHS anymore.

I don't think this metaphor applies to video games in the way the above individuals were pointing out. Of course no one buys VHS's anymore, but they still buy movies. Games are still distributed, Lord British (Richard Garriot), of Ultima Fame still creates old school point and click RPG's alone at his home, and has quite the audience. He has enough of a fan-base, albeit niche, in order to continue his independent developments, likely indefinitely.

At every game meetup you'll find some schmuck preaching about how his new "item mall micro-transaction revenue model" is going to revolutionize the game industry, attempting to recruit developers blindly to work toward a vision that has already been proven a failure by those much smarter than him.

If Mircea is trying to develop a game in house, why not start with a quality game first before moving onto revenue models? With nearly $1 million (USD) raised (or will be raised) from the IPO (extrapolated from the initial 15%), Mircea has more than enough capital to compete with AAA titles.

Taking the metaphor literally, it still doesn't apply. Companies still release products for dead consoles, (games are still being released for the Dreamcast), players still buy them, the cycle continues.

Quote
if people don't know/don't care about that statement then you can hire them. If everybody knows and cares about what me/MP says then you can always find people to hire because you're the only thing so cool on the Internet that EVERYONE knows and cares what you say. Either way....

With your logic you should have Miyamoto, Inafune, and Kojima all lining up to head up the lead design role for S.MG. Alas they are not, I understand the quote was meant to be slightly humorous, however all three of the listed individuals were once novices, and during the infancy of their tenure, they certainly faced failure on a daily basis. At one point in time their names meant nothing.

Most designers and developers worth hiring who have the potential to reach this capacity care most about their artistic vision and how those leading them affect the realized version of that vision.

Quote
More importantly, why is it so important to establish conceptually what is or isn't a game? If people play it, that's all it takes (also known as the "I know it when I see it" legal standard).

That's not entirely true...(I'm referring to the "If people play it, that's all it takes"). In fact many game critics and highly regarded designers would completely disagree. The anecdote of one playing ET for the Atari 2600 is the classic example of something that can be played that is far from a game.

What makes a game? Johan Huizinga answered this long ago before any of us were born: http://www.nideffer.net/classes/270-08/week_01_intro/Huizinga.pdf

This has subsequently become a standard in the game development community, a very good read for anyone claiming to be a game designer.

By not making this distinction you are again insulting the player, the one person you'd best not to insult. The player may never know or care about the distinction, but they will feel it in the game. This distinction allows the designer to create an experience that is fun, rather than depending on "brain hacks." It is subconscious by nature.

The user originally asked:
Quote
Games based on skill? Feeding alpacas on your little farm with carrots that you bought for Bitcoins in a microtransaction and posting every fart of said animals on Facebook, Twitter, Google+, Diaspora, the hidden wiki and Bitmessage?

You replied by insulting the would be player:

Quote
I'm not sure the distinction you propose makes any sense. Is WoW a game of luck or a game of skill by your definition? Sure, skill plays some part, in that if you can't play you can't play.

Come on. Really? The article I referenced at the beginning of this post by Dr. Bogost, analyzes the distinction you are willingly ignoring. I'll start with a quick quote from the attached article by Dr. Bogost:
Quote
Most games require some non-trivial effort to play. Challenge and effort are often cited in definitions of games, as is a tendency toward meaningful interactivity. In these cases, a game's meaning emerges largely from the choices a player makes within a complex system of many interlocking and contingent outcomes, both user- and system-generated.
Of course, there are also games that one plays for relaxation instead of for challenge—zoning out with Solitaire or Bejeweled, for example. In both these cases, the gameplay may not entail the complexity of Go or Civilization, but the results are earnest and, at times, profound. - Dr. Ian Bogost

"Non-trivial effort to play" is the key phrase here. This distinguishes the "brain-hack", from legitimate forms of play.

By ignoring the distinction or an effort to find a distinction, you are not doing your homework, and a disservice to the end user. This goes back to, "I know a game when I see it." I can't implore how critical it is to have well-thought design in the play experience. Nintendo in the 1980's with the release of the Famicom (known as the NES in the west), focused on a fun play experience. A young Miyamoto, was given the task of designing "fun" games, as opposed to trying to drop a flood of games on the market to produce cash flow. Instead, he brought us Donkey Kong, Mario, Metroid, and The Legend of Zelda, all in under a decade. He focused on fundamentals - fundamentals that you seem to be ignoring based on what you are saying.

The user above was clearly comparing Farmville to say a game like Dark Souls.

Farmville's mechanics can be broken down into a very simple "click the cow" action, whereas a game like Dark Souls or Nethack require strategy, tactics, and skill.

Cow Clicker (referenced in the Bogost article), was created as a satire of games like Farmville. You are given a Cow on your Facebook games page, and you are allowed to click it every 8 hours. You can post that you've clicked your cow, trying to get your friends to click it, to gain the in game currency, Mooney, which you use to buy decorated cows. You can pay real cash for all this to go away, bypassing the gameplay entirely. (All of which is described very well by Dr. Bogost in his article). The game became successful, as many people didn't realize it was satire. As well people who wouldn't be caught dead playing Farmville, started playing Cow Clicker because they understood the comedic and satirical nature of the game. All of this was merely an experiment for Bogost, who created a "Cowocalypse" where everyone's cow was raptured...essentially killing the game: he never intended it to be a "real game".

That's all a game like Farmville amounts to, clicking a cow every 8 hours, or paying money to make the tedious gameplay optional. What kind of game is that?

However Harvest Moon, the game Farmville and others are inspired/based on, is a lot more fun than Farmville, came out nearly two decades ago, and still has a cult following. Why? Because the design is superior, and not following the "fuck the player" mantra.

In contrast to Farmville, despite it's difficult nature, people pick up Dark Souls just to submit to the challenge.

Yes, at some point there will be someone who defeats a world champion at Street Fighter by button mashing, but the probability of that happening is very slim.

Quote
For my curiosity, make a list of ten companies where management regularly pissed off developers versus ten companies where management regularly catered to developers and then compare their business results.

This is as easy as going to a list of defunct game companies (like the glorious Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_video_game_companies), and picking your lot.

I'll cater to this curiosity, but 10 of each is a large number as you'll see below.

So I'll compromise, I've interleaved a few companies: successful companies that cater to their developers and companies that piss of their developers and have felt the repercussions in business results.

EA)
Okay so you started us off with EA. They do regularly piss off their developers, and had good business results...until recently. EA was extremely successful over the past decade, but as stated above with Zynga, the "fuck the user (and additionally fuck the developers)" mantra will and is catching up to the company. EA is successful by essentially buying fans through acquisitions: Maxis, Bioware, and Popcap to name a few. This definitely is a valid business tactic, until the developers who made the IP successful jump ship due to frustration (Will Wright as a prime example).

The most recent CEO resigned due to issues involving long term fan base growth, rather than financial reasons.

News: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22801311

Mojang)
The studio that grew from the success of Minecraft. Notch hired staff, including his management (and Officers etc.), based on their ability to contribute to his vision, and making the process "fun". There have been a few hiccups, but one could argue that the company caters to developers on all fronts, (for example: their physical studio setup, lack of deadlines, freedom in adhering to the designer's artistic vision etc.), and maintains profitability vs. company size. (Minecraft has over 10 million purchases as of now if I am not mistaken).

Atari (3 Failed Subsidararies)
Atari's console the 2600 has the exclusive rights to quite possibly the worst "game" on the planet: ET. I don't want to lecture on what has been thoroughly discussed, someone else can beat the dead horse.

This product (ET) is a microcosm of some of the bad decisions Atari took in terms of growing a great development staff. Atari instead focused on making money off of the licensing process, rather than moving quality games. This contributed to the dark age of games, where companies that had no business developing games were getting published by Atari and sent to market. This is the exact reason how ET made it to shelves. ET should have never made it to shelves. (See the legend of the landfill filled with ET cartridges: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial).

Kojima Productions)
This formed from the division of Konami that became "The Metal Gear" team. The original Metal Gear Solid was a hallmark for the video game industry at the turn of the century (the late 90's early 2000's, Metal Gear Solid was released in 1998), and has grown into an extraordinarily successful franchise. Before Kojima had his own dedicated studio, Konami gave him free reign to develop the first Metal Gear Solid. There were barely any restrictions to the allocated resources. This was essentially unheard of during this time period, as few designers were given this degree of freedom with the amount of resources allocated. Metal Gear Solid is nothing but revolutionary, and is the product of not only experimental freedom, but sheer hard work. Many will argue Metal Gear Solid did for video games what Citizen Kane did for film.

Double Fine)
Double Fine is a company with a lot of heart. Tim Schafer's company known for Psychonauts and Brutal Legend, is the epitome of a company that caters to developers and succeeded against the odds. Double Fine was formed by Schafer after gaining experience from being a lead designer at Lucasarts, spearheading projects such as Monkey Island, and Grim Fandango. During the production of Psychonauts the company technically failed: Microsoft who had originally invested in their first game Psychonauts, backed out of the deal completely. Double Fine was left in a state where they were developing a game without a publisher, and had acquired much debt due to Microsoft pulling their original investment deal. The company was so broke due to Microsoft's decision, there was no money to pay anybody. After this news was announced to the staff, Schafer expected everyone to quit, and began talks with his leadership staff of liquidating the company and filing for bankruptcy. The following day, the staff still came into work and continued working on the game. It took several months before Majesco picked up the publishing rights to the title. This was in 2004-2005, since then Double Fine has become successful on it's own accords, and currently maintains profitability.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Tim_Schafer_and_Cookie_Monster.jpg
Tim Schafer negotiates a publishing deal.


Lets switch it up:

Team Bondi)
Team Bondi is kind of up in the air as to their treatment of developers. Some said the loved working there, others state it was hell, putting in 80 hour weeks etc. etc. Either way the company catered to them monetarily, and with technical resources. They eventually made a game with revolutionary facial capturing technology (see L.A. Noire), however this took them a nearly 8 year development period. During this period they burned through cash like the Joker in that movie everyone likes. A simple Google search can easily bring up the problems Team Bondi faced, and their subsequent forced liquidation.

Rockstar)
Rockstar treats their employees like shit at times. Some will claim to work 60+ hour weeks, rarely see their families, and suffer from anxiety disorders, etc. Yet Rockstar consistently produces hit, after hit, after hit. They push the bounds of both the technology, ethics, and mechanics of games. Between the production of GTA: San Andreas and GTA IV, EA bought Criterion Software, the makers of Renderware, which powered the GTA III era of many of Rockstar's games. EA promised to honor a grandfather like clause for all Renderware licensing, but reneged on this promise. This motivated Rockstar's development of RAGE, and licensing Euphoria. Some say EA was trying to sabotage old Renderware contracts in order to cripple older IPs for easier acquisition, but there isn't a lot of substance to these claims. It wouldn't surprise me if evidence surfaces in the future.

Valve)
Valve is kind of an anomaly. Gabe Newell was one of the first 100 employees of Microsoft, making him a millionaire in the 90's. In 1996 he left to form a video game company. Half-Life was made, Steam was invented to play/distribute Counter-Strike 1.6, and the rest is history. Valve is a lot like Google for games, they have intense cashflow and a relatively small staff, so they always maintain a surplus in their budget. This creates an R&D wet dream, and one could argue, with "disposable" cashflow one can afford to pamper the developers.

This doesn't even scratch the surface.

It's in Mr. Popescu's best interest to recruit the best developers/designers possible in regards to game development, and keep them close, perhaps loyal. Maintaining a good relationship with a team that always makes the playoffs is far easier than trying to reconstruct a new team every season.

When I spoke with Mr. Popescu, I asked if a team brought him a game he believed in, would he manage them without compromising their artistic vision, and he said in fewer more concise words, "sure, as long as they have a product."

S.MG has a lot of potential, but it seems you are a bit unprepared at the moment. I hope S.MG takes a more traditional route, and helps to invest in delivering quality products to shelves, and a quality team, rather than trying to invest in profits to impress investors (the EA route). Developers need management, they aren't managers, hence how could they manage themselves? Many designers and developers realize this, but no leadership team wants to be onboard a company funded by dreams.

As stated, I agree wholeheartedly that most Indie developers that fail, or even most studios that fail is due to poor management, hence the inception of S.MG, but I would argue that you have mismatched priorities. You seem to be focused on the revenue plan, and less on the question "will players become fans?"

Many game companies have brought in defacto management, who have good leadership, and failed. Traditional leadership doesn't translate well into the game industry, it never has, it never will. Zynga has been the most recent company to prove that. The good leadership translated into great initial profits, but with the decline of a true fanbase, their business model completely buckled underneath them.

My opinion alone may not matter, but I can guarantee any game developer/designer worth hiring will have the same concerns. People can argue all day, "the underlings don't matter", but in a game company they do.
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June 13, 2013, 12:35:36 PM
 #46

But I guess now you're in a fine position to appreciate the heap of lols that were had over @ MPEx Fortress what with all the countless comments of the website business forum experts collected over the years. Obviously Berkshire doesn't look professional enough, and if only they added CSS....

many lels indeed, no doubt. BH HTML source looks like a zen circle painting.

...his reporting "standard" (LOL!) is one big joke and has already blown up on investors face (see S.DICE saga https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101902.1740)

one more giant lel behind that link. glad I dumped all my S.DICE shares and put them into AM; my BTC30 loss due to napkin accounting was more than recovered.

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June 13, 2013, 02:21:27 PM
 #47

Item malls are secondary revenue streams and have failed plenty of times due to this new developer mantra of "Fuck the user as long as we get paid." The reason games such as Team Fortress 2 have been successful in applying the mall-model is due to a previously developed user base surrounding a quality game. Sacrificing quality for revenue always leads to disaster, one may profit initially, however this always catches up to you (see NASDAQ:ZNGA).

I think you are perhaps reading a little more into one (vague) sentence than is warranted.

The comment referred to games already established. If we are acquiring an already published title which is built around an Item Mall model, S.MG will not force a change to that. This is just plain common sense, as it's not too likely for such changes to be economically feasible anyway, in most cases.

If we are developing de novo, the preferred model is RCE. I thought that was stated sufficiently clearly, but perhaps not.

All these considerations aside, the actual concrete solutions in actual concrete circumstances will bow to those circumstances as much as practicable, we're merely discussing generalities here, and perhaps a lot past the point where it's worth it.

If Mircea is trying to develop a game in house, why not start with a quality game first before moving onto revenue models?

I'm confused as to what you mean by that? Everything starts with the revenue model, this isn't fanfic.

Mircea has more than enough capital to compete with AAA titles.

If competing with AAA titles was a matter of capital only (and $1mn at that) Paris Hilton would be billed above Angelina Jolie and Coindesk would be a competitive Bitcoin company, with relevance and marketshare. Sure, people with ideas (ie, fanfic) often misrepresent their inability to compete within the business in terms of not having money, because they commonly don't. Money is not really the issue, however.

Most designers and developers worth hiring who have the potential to reach this capacity care most about their artistic vision and how those leading them affect the realized version of that vision.

Sure.

By not making this distinction you are again insulting the player, the one person you'd best not to insult. The player may never know or care about the distinction, but they will feel it in the game. This distinction allows the designer to create an experience that is fun, rather than depending on "brain hacks." It is subconscious by nature.

I think again you're probably going too far on the interpretative journey. My statement was simply a refusal to go into detail. You can't read into that some detail of your own choosing and then argue with it.

By ignoring the distinction or an effort to find a distinction, you are not doing your homework, and a disservice to the end user.

No, I am simply doing what PR does since time immemorial: refusing to answer questions when for whatever reasons my employer considers it pointless to entertain them.

Farmville's mechanics can be broken down into a very simple "click the cow" action, whereas a game like Dark Souls or Nethack require strategy, tactics, and skill.

While I can appreciate your own aesthetics and the fact that the brain exists principally to recognize patterns in the environment, be they actually there or not, at some point you'll have to notice that all you do at the computer as long you're not typing is move the mouse and click the mouse.

It's in Mr. Popescu's best interest to recruit the best developers/designers possible in regards to game development, and keep them close, perhaps loyal. Maintaining a good relationship with a team that always makes the playoffs is far easier than trying to reconstruct a new team every season.

There's no argument here, is there?

When I spoke with Mr. Popescu, I asked if a team brought him a game he believed in, would he manage them without compromising their artistic vision, and he said in fewer more concise words, "sure, as long as they have a product."

Seems there's no argument.

I hope S.MG takes a more traditional route, and helps to invest in delivering quality products to shelves, and a quality team, rather than trying to invest in profits to impress investors (the EA route).

As long as we agree that the definition of quality is "people are willing to part with their own labor in exchange for this" then absolutely.

Developers need management, they aren't managers, hence how could they manage themselves? Many designers and developers realize this, but no leadership team wants to be onboard a company funded by dreams.

Well depending on what your take is with BTC, S.MG is funded by almost 9k of such dreams. Either way really.

You seem to be focused on the revenue plan, and less on the question "will players become fans?"

Why do you suppose the revenue plan and the players becoming fans are divorced topics?

...his reporting "standard" (LOL!) is one big joke and has already blown up on investors face (see S.DICE saga https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101902.1740)

one more giant lel behind that link. glad I dumped all my S.DICE shares and put them into AM; my BTC30 loss due to napkin accounting was more than recovered.

Probably worth pointing out that the OP is naturally confused. S.DICE was keeping its own accounting, by its own standards. Which, I guess, were indeed ill advised, in retrospect. Had they followed S.MPOE/MPEx standards closer they would perhaps find themselves closer to the position in which S.MPOE/MPEx finds itself, which is to say the only public company of that age in BTC.

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June 13, 2013, 09:47:57 PM
 #48

....
Probably worth pointing out that the OP is naturally confused. S.DICE was keeping its own accounting, by its own standards. Which, I guess, were indeed ill advised, in retrospect. Had they followed S.MPOE/MPEx standards closer they would perhaps find themselves closer to the position in which S.MPOE/MPEx finds itself, which is to say the only public company of that age in BTC.

I guess you are not only "naturally confused" (what ever that means in your sick head) but you are utterly delusional.
This mess you call "MPOE/MPEx standard" is a joke and has nothing to do with proper financial reporting.

I can understand why you think it's a new and shiny standard - you have no idea what bookkeeping and reporting are so you invented something you can understand. Because of your delusions of grandeur, it's very hard for you to comprehend that you are wrong. News flash - this delusion of yours will not make you right. Your reports are only a part of the picture. You obviously have  no idea how to put together the rest of it so it all adds up.

PS! Try pulling your head out of your ass. Maybe fresh air can help.

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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June 14, 2013, 02:25:39 AM
Last edit: June 14, 2013, 02:54:57 PM by thestringpuller
 #49

Quote
I think you are perhaps reading a little more into one (vague) sentence than is warranted.

Maybe I am, but I literally just finished an article in GameInformer on microtransaction/RCE video games, titled "Red Flags". Perhaps not the best magazine to take gamedev advice from, but the fact even GameInformer is touching on the issue, means it's pretty mainstream.

Maybe I did read into it a bit too much, but it feels like you guys took a quick look at the marketplace, said "RCE based games seem to be the winners!" and are running with that without further research.

Maybe I'm underestimating the depth in which MP's research has gone into this, but with some of the blanket statements you've made, it definitely isn't showing.

Quote
If we are developing de novo, the preferred model is RCE. I thought that was stated sufficiently clearly, but perhaps not.

Why is it preferred? Because it seems more fiscally sound based on what you know about the game industry as of right now, or because it really is the best option?

The RCE model is something most will cite in their essay: "What is wrong with modern video games?" Why MG is pursuing this model when so many reputable industry giants have flat out stated the many flaws in this system baffles me completely.

Are you really too cool to stick to fundamentals? You happen to be taller than everyone else and can dunk, so you have no reason to learn to shoot free throws? One day you'll be at the line, in a tied game, with no time on the clock, wishing you had practiced more free throws.

Quote
I'm confused as to what you mean by that? Everything starts with the revenue model, this isn't fanfic.
You're confused because you have never worked for/with a game company. There's no way in hell you can convince anyone with a brain in the game industry that a revenue model is more important than a game that will sell. That's exactly how the Atari brand failed multiple times.

Squaresoft (of Final Fantasy fame), made several games before creating the first Final Fantasy. None of these games sold. They had a solid revenue model, solid business plan, solid team. Yet no one wanted to play their games. Okay, so they give it one last shot, an RPG: their Final Fantasy. The game sells very well, generates a pretty big fanbase. It alone saved the company from imminent doom.

What do I mean by this? You can focus all day on your revenue model, solid business plan, etc. But if your game sucks, no one is going to willingly play it. In game development the traditional business process is in reverse, you start by making sure your game won't suck, then do everything else.

You have no way to prove to anyone what you develop won't suck. So lets suppose your game does suck that you spent a year, maybe 2, or perhaps 3 years, and some thousands of BTC developing. Any and everything you planned for it, including your RCE model, and overall revenue plan is irrelevant.

Then you join the ranks of Team Bondi.

You can dodge details all you want, but from the gist of what you've posted it sounds like you're creating a business plan around, "fuck the user as long as we get paid."  

Quote
Why do you suppose the revenue plan and the players becoming fans are divorced topics?

It's not particularly divorced, but they hang in a balance for a game company. There will be many a decision that helps the revenue stream, but hurts the fanbase. They oppose each other by nature. Ideally everyone would love a healthy fanbase and revenue model/stream to refelect one another, but that's rarely the case. Every time someone has the bright idea to merge the two topics, they may end up making a bunch of money, but turning away a long term fanbase (EA), or growing a large happy fanbase but going defunct due to lack of revenue (Sega).  

Why is Nintendo so successful? In short it's because of long term fans. People who grew up with Super Mario Bros. on the NES are buying Mario Galaxy for their kids today. They didn't always put the fans first, but it was certainly one of their top priorities.

At the end of the day you'll be given choices that are divorced, "do I piss off the fans, or do I hurt the cash flow". There has to be a balance.

Quote
Money is not really the issue, however.

Creating a AAA title requires intensive long term labor, and large teams. Mainly due to issues revolving around structuring the game engine for the title. You either have to purchase licensing (which is $1 mn off the bat), or you have to spend n years developing an inhouse engine. As well, you usually have to put together resource allocation which amounts to a small-med animated film depending on the game: voice actors, animators, concept artists, motion capture, etc.

Lets say John Carmack didn't have access to capital, or any leverage at all. Carmack, I would say is a very skilled programmer. You ask him to develop a triple AAA title. There is no money to be found. He can't recruit a team based soley on "dreams". It'll take him a decade to create everything on his own.

The monetary budget reflects the scope a game may reach.

Yes, they can still create a great game despite lack of funds, but the scope will be drastically cut in comparison to something like Alan Wake.

So let me rephrase: MP has both the capital and leadership ability as a producer to congregate a team together capable of creating a title to compete with current AAA titles.

Quote
My statement was simply a refusal to go into detail. You can't read into that some detail of your own choosing and then argue with it...

I'm pretty sure you said
Quote
More importantly, why is it so important to establish conceptually what is or isn't a game?

That either means you literally don't know, or you don't care. Perhaps you don't have to know or care because you aren't designing the games. But it is an important distinction to make.

Quote
...at some point you'll have to notice that all you do at the computer as long you're not typing is move the mouse and click the mouse

So at some point I should also look at a masterpiece painting and notice it's just oil and pigment on a canvas? Is a good book just ink on a piece of paper? Sure that's all it is, but at the same time it's much more. The whole is more than just the sum of the parts...

You clearly asked, even if rhetorically to deflect "going into detail", "why is it so important to establish conceptually what is or isn't a game?" while spearheading the PR for a game company. You represent S.MG no? S.MG = Video Company. No game company worth mentioning, in their right mind, would say such a thing, even as a joke. That was my point.  

Every year at the GDC, you'll have schmuck saying the same thing when arguing "games aren't art" which has been debated for years, becoming the new micro/monolithic kernel flamewar for the game industry. Yes your brain is just making you click a mouse or press buttons on a controller. What your brain does in between seeing the screen/hearing the sounds, and pressing buttons is what matters, not the action itself.

Like the painting, gameplay is a representation of something else. Play as a cultural phenomenon in itself is a representation.

You refuse to acknowledge this simple fact. However as your team comes together, if any of them are worth anything of value to the industry, someone will bring it up.

Edit:
John Carmack not Richard Carmack. Yesterday twas a long day.
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June 14, 2013, 03:00:12 AM
 #50

7 Posts and very well written

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June 14, 2013, 07:23:11 AM
 #51

yep, thestringpuller should obviously be hired as consultant by MG
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June 14, 2013, 05:17:19 PM
 #52

Why is it preferred? Because it seems more fiscally sound based on what you know about the game industry as of right now, or because it really is the best option?

Well honestly, it's preferred because MP says it's preferred. I asked him why and he said "that's complicated" after a pause, which means there's about 50-50 odds he'll at some point write a Trilema post about it.

The RCE model is something most will cite in their essay: "What is wrong with modern video games?" Why MG is pursuing this model when so many reputable industry giants have flat out stated the many flaws in this system baffles me completely.

Why are you in Bitcoin when so many reputable industry giants have flat out stated the many flaws in this system? Because reputable industry giants are idiots, perhaps? Because they have different incentive structures than actual functioning markets? Who's to know.

You're confused because you have never worked for/with a game company. There's no way in hell you can convince anyone with a brain in the game industry that a revenue model is more important than a game that will sell. That's exactly how the Atari brand failed multiple times.

No but look, this is mystiquizing. Nobody goes "let's make some cool shit" and then, after the cool shit is made, has meetings to establish if it will be sold as a Broadway musical, a make your own adventure book series or a line of branded sodas. The revenue model is established first, the thing that will sell is made within that model. Anyone is free to feel creatively superior to reality, but it's just a feeling.

What do I mean by this? You can focus all day on your revenue model, solid business plan, etc. But if your game sucks, no one is going to willingly play it.

This is additive tho'. You're acting as if doing the business homework somehow automagically prevents doing the creative homework, as if brushing your hair guarantees you can't brush your teeth and now you'll get gingivitis AND DIE!!!

It's not a this or that. It's doing this well, and doing that well.

You have no way to prove to anyone what you develop won't suck.

Well yes, actually there is a way. Have a little patience now will you.

It's not particularly divorced, but they hang in a balance for a game company. There will be many a decision that helps the revenue stream, but hurts the fanbase.

Not really. In a well managed project the incentives are so aligned that this never happens. If the situation is of that nature management has already amply failed, and the designs weren't in all likelihood too bright either.

They oppose each other by nature. Ideally everyone would love a healthy fanbase and revenue model/stream to refelect one another

Only if what you mean by "fanbase" is people who want to use but not pay. If that's what you mean we disagree: the free-as-in-beer-and-only-free-as-in-beer types are NOT fans. They may call themselves fans but it's a misnomer, like calling strippers chaste or politicians leaders.

You clearly asked, even if rhetorically to deflect "going into detail", "why is it so important to establish conceptually what is or isn't a game?" while spearheading the PR for a game company.

At that time we were discussing, generally, what games S.MG may in time own/publish/distribute. There's really not much constraint, at the present time, like it or not. Maybe in time.

Every year at the GDC, you'll have schmuck saying the same thing when arguing "games aren't art" which has been debated for years, becoming the new micro/monolithic kernel flamewar for the game industry.

Yeah well, sorry I can't be bothered to join that debate. I really don't care if they are or are not. I don't think anybody sane cares, for that matter, much like Moliere's bourgeois is pleasantly surprised he speaks in prose but doesn't really give a shit past that.

Now don't take this the wrong way, I understand you feel very strongly about all these topics, and in many places you raise interesting points.

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June 14, 2013, 06:21:25 PM
 #53

No but look, this is mystiquizing. Nobody goes "let's make some cool shit" and then, after the cool shit is made, has meetings to establish if it will be sold as a Broadway musical, a make your own adventure book series or a line of branded sodas. The revenue model is established first, the thing that will sell is made within that model. Anyone is free to feel creatively superior to reality, but it's just a feeling.  

I don't believe the distinction between the type of game/revenue model is that black and white.  You can't, for example, design a game, seperately determine a revenue model and then assume that the two will fit.  Some revenue models fit certain types of game better than others.  As an extreme example consider a game developed with a total time to play-through measured in the 10s of hours.  If the game is great then it could do very well sold through app stores for a small one-off fee - but it would fail dismally if you tried to sell it using a monthly-subscription model.  To a significant extent the revenue model is coupled tightly to some aspects of the game.

There are also massive design decisions which have to be made in terms of game-play.  If you're going with the item-mall idea then you first need to determine which model of it you'll use.  All of these comments are my own views - not based on forum discussions.  I see item-malls as being split into two types:

1.  The model widely used - especially by all the Chinese companies - where players basically buy success.  The vast bulk of revenue in these games comes from a very small number of whales.  To be successful (at generating revenue) game design has to focus on ways for the whales to be able to compare their strength to other players and, ideally, bully those who haven't paid much.  That allows the whales to stand out (and see clear benefit for the cash they've handed over) - and also keeps operational costs down by driving out those who won't pay as they can't compete or achieve much.

2.  Item-malls aimed at taking a smaller amount of cash from a far wider user-base.  That means ensuring that no massive difference in progress/strength can be easily bought.  It also means having to appeal to players via actual content/game-play rather than just "if you spend some more money you can be the strongest."

Type 1 is what so many gamers object to.  Progress is achieved through use of a credit-card not a brain.  As someone who has played a LOT of games over the years (and continues to do so) I don't like type 1 from a player's perspective at all - because they don't provide the challenge I'm looking for.  But that doesn't invalidate them as a means of making a profit.  And that's where thestringpuller is, I think, going wrong.  As a game-player I far prefer type 2.  But investors in S.MG (should) want whichever will give the best return on investment - the company's focus should NOT be on "what will make the most players happy" but on "what will make the most profit for our investors".  And I'm VERY certain MP is on the side of investors not players.  

None of which to say the two (pleasing investors and having satisifed players) are mutually exclusive - it's just that it's far easier to develop something that focuses on one of them than to try to deliver to both.
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June 14, 2013, 06:27:21 PM
 #54

There really are a lot of different definitions for the word "game". Maybe we should be thinking more along these lines:


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June 14, 2013, 06:37:47 PM
 #55

There really are a lot of different definitions for the word "game". Maybe we should be thinking more along these lines:



You have just lost The Game. And so have I. Grin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28mind_game%29
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June 14, 2013, 06:50:26 PM
Last edit: June 14, 2013, 07:39:10 PM by MPOE-PR
 #56

There are also massive design decisions which have to be made in terms of game-play.  If you're going with the item-mall idea then you first need to determine which model of it you'll use.  All of these comments are my own views - not based on forum discussions.  I see item-malls as being split into two types:

I think through the workings of forum magic, what was originally a distinction, contrast and opposition (RCE vs Item Malls) has been conflated into a nonsensical identity (RCE = Item Mall).

For the record and for everyone's benefit: RCE (short for real cash economy) is a Bitcoinesque way of running game universes where instead of the developer/operator playing Bernanke and issuing endless quantities of game "gold", the available gold is strictly related to funds deposited by players. Thus being an efficient hunter is more important than being a BIG hunter. There's few examples of such games being developed, specifically because pre-Bitcoin there were a lot of problems with handling of game currency. Bitcoin superbly resolves all these, and it'd be ridiculous for it not to be used for the one purpose it's actually been made to satisfy. We're like a bunch of people using a hammer for anything but nails, currently.

Item Malls are mostly unrelated, offering the player base the option to buy more or less gameplay-enhancing items for USD. We generally agree it's not a great model, which is why the specification was made that as far as possible we prefer RCE (ie, a completely different model) and I think re-reading the discussion with the distinction clearly in mind will be very helpful.

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June 14, 2013, 08:01:07 PM
 #57

There are also massive design decisions which have to be made in terms of game-play.  If you're going with the item-mall idea then you first need to determine which model of it you'll use.  All of these comments are my own views - not based on forum discussions.  I see item-malls as being split into two types:

I think through the workings of forum magic, what was originally a distinction, contrast and opposition (RCE vs Item Malls) has been conflated into a nonsensical identity (RCE = Item Mall).

For the record and for everyone's benefit: RCE (short for real cash economy) is a Bitcoinesque way of running game universes where instead of the developer/operator playing Bernanke and issuing endless quantities of game "gold", the available gold is strictly related to funds deposited by players. Thus being an efficient hunter is more important than being a BIG hunter. There's few examples of such games being developed, specifically because pre-Bitcoin there were a lot of problems with handling of game currency. Bitcoin superbly resolves all these, and it'd be ridiculous for it not to be used for the one purpose it's actually been made to satisfy. We're like a bunch of people using a hammer for anything but nails, currently.

Item Malls are mostly unrelated, offering the player base the option to buy more or less gameplay-enhancing items for USD. We generally agree it's not a great model, which is why the specification was made that as far as possible we prefer RCE (ie, a completely different model) and I think re-reading the discussion with the distinction clearly in mind will be very helpful.

My point wasn't that you were going to use item-malls - but that deciding upon a revenue model does also restrict game-design choices and so can't be decided upon entirely seperately.  I used item-malls as an example because that's what the other poster had posted at length about.

RCE, for example, pretty much rules out single-player offline games.  RCE means games need to either be player vs house or player vs player - as the key resource has to be both limited (in terms of creation - not in terms of some maximum ever issued) and redistributable.

I totally agree that Bitcoin and an RCE model are an obvious pairing - isn't there some gambling-based MMO that already does that (which isn't an argument against someone else also doing it)?.
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June 14, 2013, 09:42:31 PM
Last edit: June 14, 2013, 09:59:02 PM by freedomno1
 #58

There really are a lot of different definitions for the word "game". Maybe we should be thinking more along these lines:



You have just lost The Game. And so have I. Grin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28mind_game%29

Oh damn I was reading the thread and just lost the game also what is this a movie trailer or a Game fancy he-he

When it comes to design choice the discussion here is interesting I know a fair bit about games myself but as the plan on design is still being discussed will with-hold for now.

Regarding the models both have benefits there is also the members vs non-member model where certain parts of the game are not accessible to non-members such as runescape with free servers and paying servers.
While not one of the two mentioned it is worth distinction

I guess outsourcing is also an option
Example being help S.Dice make some alternate games on their site as Abu noted

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June 14, 2013, 10:06:58 PM
 #59

There really are a lot of different definitions for the word "game". Maybe we should be thinking more along these lines:



MP sez:

Quote
<mircea_popescu> https://i.imgur.com/wBw2DpJ.png
<mircea_popescu> bwahahaha
<mircea_popescu> ok you buncha scammor wannabes. which of you is cool enough to have his own posters made ? huh ?
<mircea_popescu> i'm like in bruce wagner and amir taaki league here.

So I guess it was appreciated.

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June 14, 2013, 10:51:44 PM
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There's few examples of such games being developed, specifically because pre-Bitcoin there were a lot of problems with handling of game currency.
This biggest one of these right now, and most successful (that I know of) is Spiral Knights. The in game currency "Energy" is used to play the game, and can only be purchased. Energy can be traded on an open market for goods and other things, but all energy spawns from users purchasing it.

Another less successful game using this model is Diablo III. All items can be traded for fiat, thus all the items correlate to a real cash value.

The reason there are few examples isn't because there "were a lot of problems with handling of game currency", but because once the mechanic is introduced it creates optionalism for the players:

Quote
By contrast, the gameplay in social games is almost entirely optional. The play acts themselves are rote, usually mere actuations of operations on expired timers. And then more so, even the enacting of those rote maneuvers can be skipped, through delegation or (more often) by spending cash money on objects or actions. Social games are games you don't have to play. - Dr. Bogost

Bitcoin doesn't automagically solve this issue, it solves the payment issues in the background, but not the mechanics themselves. When you add any kind of optionalism to a game, you're essentially saying "I've added a cheat code activated by money", no matter how you try to dress it up.

Spiral Knights did RCE well because they utilized economics inside the game as opposed to game subscriptions. Buying Energy amounts to buying subscription time. They didn't make it a gameplay bypass.

I understand the desire to cash in on the whole MMO cash cow:

World of Warcraft went live in 2004. A monthly subscription is/was $15.
That means for every player that plays a year, they generate $180 of revenue.
Multiply that by the peak 15 million actively subscribed players: $2,700,000,000/year

A lot of studios joke about how in the morning the Blizzard developers and managers would collectively first grab a wad of cash, throw it on the floor and roll in it for the first two hours of their work day.

I know that there are some standard deviations in there to get a more "reasonable" number (they had specials, yearly deals, etc. that changes this generalized number), but this still clearly shows the cash to be made from a successful MMORPG.

Now lets be generous and say 1/10th of those 15 million players have been playing the past 8 years:
That's $2.16 Billion they've made from that group of players.

Again I understand the desire to capitalize on such a product, but don't let this blind you from other important issues.

Quote
Why are you in Bitcoin when so many reputable industry giants have flat out stated the many flaws in this system?
Bitcoin is it's own financial space, the financial giants have no reign here, what they say generally doesn't matter in relation to Bitcoin, because they've never used it. The ones that have still haven't used it as extensively as say MP.

What game industry legends have to say about the game industry definitely applies to any and all games.

To answer your rhetorical question: There is an invaluable educational value to Bitcoin if you're willing to sit and listen. As an anecdote, I've learned more from MP and others about business, than the so called MBA's learned during their "education". I've applied a few of MP's models to physical businesses that has been met with success.

MP wrote in his FAQ:
Quote
Bitcoin is in fact first and foremost a wonderful community of highly skilled, intelligent and open minded people which tearfully reminds one of the old days of the pre-September Internet.

Everyone yearns for the pre-September days of computing. And alas here it is. Unfortunately it seems inevitable, the flood of college students will come and dilute the intellect, but hopefully not for awhile longer.

Quote
Nobody goes "let's make some cool shit" and then, after the cool shit is made, has meetings to establish if it will be sold as a Broadway musical, a make your own adventure book series or a line of branded sodas.

Are you saying the revenue model is merged in the process of developing the product? Or are you saying that you figure out what you're going to sell and how to sell it, then you create a product within those bounds?

That just seems like it over complicates the nature of selling games. Lets take the anomaly of Minecraft for example, and I use the term anomaly because there was a lot of luck involved in its success. But Notch started by first demoing a prototype on an IndieGame forum, much in the structure of this one. He got good feedback, so he continued developing it. Eventually he started charging 5 dollars per download. Unexpectedly the game was an overnight success, so he took the numbers to someone he thought best fit the role of "Manager". At that point they sat down and discussed what you described above. From this they made a simple authentication server to track purchases, similar to the functionality of Steam.

Yes, I understand it's an anomaly, but games tend to follow: "lets make cool shit now, if people like it we'll figure out what to do". The whole concept Valve popularized of, "Keep coding and the rest will take care of itself", is a sound plan. This is why you're likely confused, you know from a realistic standpoint this generally doesn't work, but in the world of games it tends to defy reality's logic.

This is why there is a mystique surrounding the entire process. You could argue the reason it worked for Mojang is due to it being an anomaly, but they aren't the only ones who took that path and succeeded.

Isn't this the same way Satoshi got Bitcoin started?

Quote
It's not a this or that. It's doing this well, and doing that well.
That's exactly what I was trying to say in so many words. If you have a great game and a poor business strategy you go up in flames. If you have a great business strategy and a sucky game, you go up in flames. You definitely have to do both well.

Quote
You're acting as if doing the business homework somehow automagically prevents doing the creative homework
No, but I know that when business hands start trying to do creative work it ruins the creative process in the same way when artistic hands start handling money they get paint all over bills.

Quote
In a well managed project the incentives are so aligned that this never happens. If the situation is of that nature management has already amply failed, and the designs weren't in all likelihood too bright either.
This is very hard to do with games generally due to the fickle nature of gamers.

Lets take Legend of Zelda for example. The first 3-4 grew into a snowball of a franchise. Then, Ocarina of Time Comes out on the Nintendo 64, the first Zelda game to be done in 3D. A critically acclaimed success people still rave about today. A year or two later, Majora's Mask, the spiritual sequel, comes out. Fans are disappointed, the game is still well designed, uses the same fundamentals used in Ocarina of Time, but it just didn't catch on with fans. Still financially successful, but fans are now on the fence with the franchise. Okay, so Miyamoto takes a step back and says, "lets mix up the art a little, go back to the cartoon-ish roots". Windwaker is announced for the GCN, and fans go fucking bonkers, foaming at the mouth in anger. Game is still excellent, and critically acclaimed, still didn't hit fans the same way as OoT. Fans state clearly, "We want a more realistic approach", so Twilight Princess comes out, fans again foam at the mouth.

The moral of the anecdote is not that you can't please everyone, but that fans are fickle and sometimes it's a "certain place / certain time" aspect to garner both commercial and fan based success. This is why I said revenue and fan-base health hang in a balance, rather than naturally align. I applaud your optimism, but don't underestimate the fickle nature of a neckbeard gamer, nor his ability to get a large portion of the fanbase foaming at the mouth in rage.

Quote
Only if what you mean by "fanbase" is people who want to use but not pay. If that's what you mean we disagree: the free-as-in-beer-and-only-free-as-in-beer types are NOT fans. They may call themselves fans but it's a misnomer, like calling strippers chaste or politicians leaders.
This reaches back to what I stated above, sometimes the fanbase is too fickle to please at some particular time. You can have healthy sales but upset fans, and the fanbase dwindles over time, the two do not correlate. Revenue from direct game sales generally correlate to how many people purchase the game, in the same way the box office numbers correlate to how many people paid money to see the movie. It doesn't reflect how many people walked out the theatre pissed off, in the same way healthy game sales don't reflect the attitude of the fans.

The recent reboot of SimCity is a perfect example of this trend. The game was financially successful, however you'd be hard pressed not to find long term fans who have given up on the franchise due to their disappointment in the reboot of the game. Some fans who have followed the franchise for over 20 years, being long term buyers, will likely not be buying anymore Maxis games. This is a problem, a problem that EA caused by putting too much emphasis of milking revenues from a new model they applied to SimCity relating to DLC.

S.MG won't initially have this issue, as there are no games out there to have fans, (yet). But like a good drug dealer, your income is on the "come back": recurrent customers. As a game company produces games, and people become fans of those games, they also become fans of the studio. You don't have to put as much effort of convincing as many people to buy the game since there's already loyal fans who will buy the game despite what anyone tells them.

As I said, ideally you'd like for the revenue and fanbase to align, but it rarely ever does, thus it leads to difficult compromises.

Quote
There's really not much constraint, at the present time, like it or not. Maybe in time.
That's definitely good to hear. Giving open doors to the game development community is a good way to bring in worthwhile talent. Indie developers generally know they'll make terrible managers, that is why S.MG has so much potential. S.MG needs a good development community to surround it, the development community needs people to tell them when they're fucking up. I would say it's Win-Win if the attitude stays this way.

Quote
I really don't care if they are or are not. I don't think anybody sane cares
Which is why I called it a flamewar, no one truly cares. It's a debate for neckbeards to get into so they feel they are standing up for something they believe in: a fruitless and unproductive endeavor.

Quote
Now don't take this the wrong way, I understand you feel very strongly about all these topics, and in many places you raise interesting points.
Take what the wrong way? Sounds like a compliment, and I appreciate the discourse. I don't particularly feel strongly about these topics one way or the other, just trying to illuminate some of the fundamentals. Again you gotta make your free throws: they're free points.

Curious, what points did I raise in particular that were interesting?

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