S.MG - The Ministry of Games.

[MPOE-PR]

This biggest one of these right now, and most successful (that I know of) is Spiral Knights.

Actually, Project Entropia/Entropia Universe is both the largest and oldest. Spiral Knights is some F2P java thing.

Another less successful game using this model is Diablo III. All items can be traded for fiat, thus all the items correlate to a real cash value.

I think presenting D3 as an RCE clearly shows you don't understand what RCE means. It's not a matter of "correlation" to cash value; by this standard WoW makes the cut.

The reason there are few examples isn't because there "were a lot of problems with handling of game currency", but because once the mechanic is introduced it creates optionalism for the players

How would you know this?

Understand, the discussion here is asymetrical. We're in a position to say X is Y because Z, as we're working on X. You're not in a position to say X is Y for non-Z, because you're not working on X. The very most you can say is K says X is Y for non-Z, for any value of K in the set of people working on it (to which the answer obviously is, "that's why K isn't working for us, he doesn't have a clue").

When you add any kind of optionalism to a game, you're essentially saying "I've added a cheat code activated by money", no matter how you try to dress it up.

There's some dressing up going on here, but it's not on the side you're pointing to.

First off, any game will forever remain a game, distinct from the player's life. That alternative where the player *becomes* his level 80 Warlock and lives forever a life of pixelated adventure distinct from his dreary, ramen-fed real existence is a point of fiction, possibly with mental health implications, especially if taken so far.

Second off, any game will necessarily meet your definition of "optionalism", in the sense that ANYTHING can be purchased with money. Name any game you consider escapes this so called "optionalism" and I'll show you how to hire somebody to play it for you.

The significant advantage of RCE over all other game implementations (absolutely all, including D3, WoW, FF and literally any other RPG) is that it removes the problem of farming. In your run of the mill mmorpg, built on the inflationary-minded "every action has a +EV result" the inescapable end point is a deluge of "currency" without value. In the RCE game some but not all activities are +EV, and this adds a layer of depth and richness to the player experience that can't be put into words. It will be put into facts, and you'll see it first hand.

Bitcoin is it's own financial space, the financial giants have no reign here, what they say generally doesn't matter in relation to Bitcoin, because they've never used it. The ones that have still haven't used it as extensively as say MP.

How would you know that?

Windwaker is announced for the GCN, and fans go fucking bonkers, foaming at the mouth in anger. Game is still excellent, and critically acclaimed, still didn't hit fans the same way as OoT. Fans state clearly, "We want a more realistic approach", so Twilight Princess comes out, fans again foam at the mouth.

I think on one end you are confusing public opinion with forum agitation, and on the other Nobody Cares what FanFic Says. It's a rule. People who try and please a public are neither artists nor ever successful, and it occurs to me that probably the greatest service S.MG offers developers is complete immunity from having to ever listen to Internet people.

I don't particularly feel strongly about these topics one way or the other, just trying to illuminate some of the fundamentals.

Well you've probably written some of Bitcointalk's longer posts (outside of the mentally ill and criminally minded, obviously).

Curious, what points did I raise in particular that were interesting?

I asked him why and he said "that's complicated" after a pause

[1715285780]

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[Deprived]

This biggest one of these right now, and most successful (that I know of) is Spiral Knights.

Actually, Project Entropia/Entropia Universe is both the largest and oldest. Spiral Knights is some F2P java thing.

Second Life?

[thestringpuller]

Actually, Project Entropia/Entropia Universe is both the largest and oldest.

Sure. They went the same route as Eve, except using real money to fund the economy. Eve seems to be more successful, and it's emergent gameplay seems to be far more profound and captivating. Perhaps this is what you're describing?

Yea Spiral Knights is free to play, but it funds the in-game currency through "real cash" in the same way Entropia does. It was the only thing I could think of off the top of my head without Googling.

How would you know this?

I've seen it first hand, in production, in an experimental environment, for the purpose of such discussions for companies (like MG I suppose) to evaluate player behavior. It's very easy to control the cashflow in the game. Handling the game currency isn't the issue, it's what players do with it, which you can't control. Sometimes this is good, sometime this is bad.

I think presenting D3 as an RCE clearly shows you don't understand what RCE means.

It was a bad example, I apologize, but it's been cited many times as an RCE game, in many discussions on the subject. Usually people think you incompetent when you use less than the best examples, like calling Kenny G a jazz musician in front of Miles Davis.

https://i.imgur.com/6zR1x.jpg

The significant advantage of RCE over all other game implementations (absolutely all, including D3, WoW, FF and literally any other RPG) is that it removes the problem of farming.

An RPG by design requires grinding, some force it by design. You can't beat a boss, you grind levels until you're strong enough to do so. Farming, (if you're defining it as the act of grinding mobs for the sole purpose of acquiring loot), on it's own accord doesn't inflate the economy. When it's combined with mass sell-offs, like anything else, then the economy in the game tanks due to inflationary reasons. This I completely understand. Final Fantasy XI suffered massive inflation due to Chinese farmers selling Gil as a business. The only option Square had was to delete some billion+ Gil to force deflation.

This occurred due to 1) drops not being finite, 2) the currency not being finite.

Bitcoin will definitely solve 2), and I assume you're going to limit 1) as you see fit.

In the RCE game some but not all activities are +EV, and this adds a layer of depth and richness to the player experience that can't be put into words

Definitely, but isn't this more due to the finite nature of resources in the game (money included)? When a player has to efficiently utilize "what I got" instead of endlessly farming to "get what I need", it creates another layer to the game due to the absence of farming.

However I would argue there will always be some form of farming, perhaps not on the scale of WoW or FFXI, but perhaps for small things. But then again you can make everything an "elixir", and increase the anarchistic capacity for the gameplay, which I would say creates some profound and emergent results.

Programmers may tell you they will write everything from scratch, but there will always be copy-paste.

It will be put into facts, and you'll see it first hand.

I've already seen it first hand...not your product in particular, but definitely the experience you've described.

I think on one end you are confusing public opinion with forum agitation, and on the other Nobody Cares what FanFic Says. It's a rule. People who try and please a public are neither artists nor ever successful...

Ha. That gave me a good laugh, thanks for that. Very true. But that wasn't my intention to illustrate. Critically acclaimed success in a piece of art has an element of timing involved. For this reason actively trying to please the public is very much a moot endeavor. But at certain points in time someone develops something cool like Minecraft and everyone loves it. Repeating the formula never works because the timing no longer exists. "Right place right time" sort of thing I suppose.

it occurs to me that probably the greatest service S.MG offers developers is complete immunity from having to ever listen to Internet people

That's usually the point of a publisher, even though the author still gets sent hate mail. C'est la vie.

Well you've probably written some of Bitcointalk's longer posts

I like to be thorough when it comes to my profession, even though I've been out of the industry for a few years. I am also very much enjoying the discourse.

[usagi]

The significant advantage of RCE over all other game implementations (absolutely all, including D3, WoW, FF and literally any other RPG) is that it removes the problem of farming.

An RPG by design requires grinding, some force it by design. You can't beat a boss, you grind levels until you're strong enough to do so. Farming, (if you're defining it as the act of grinding mobs for the sole purpose of acquiring loot), on it's own accord doesn't inflate the economy. When it's combined with mass sell-offs, like anything else, then the economy in the game tanks due to inflationary reasons. This I completely understand. Final Fantasy XI suffered massive inflation due to Chinese farmers selling Gil as a business. The only option Square had was to delete some billion+ Gil to force deflation.

I've been a gamer almost all my life, and I got into coding because of gaming. I've written several games including a fully playable nethack clone. And it always shocks me how few people in the industry really understand game design. The massive screwup that was Diablo III is a testament to that. It has been suggested many times that a great way to learn game design is to study the massive number of failures that comprise Diablo III.

You want to understand game design? Listen to a Dio or Gene interview when they talk about how to treat fans and get into the industry (here's one). Then you will understand game design.

D3 is actually a great example for this thread because it shows that billions of dollars and a (really huge) team of very experienced developers still has the chance to fail. I'd like to contrast this with CSR racing, which makes $12 million a month right now, and had a small team of (relatively) inexperienced developers.

I don't want to see S.MG fail but it is obvious to me that Mircea is in way over his head on this one. I don't know what he is thinking. He can't code and he thinks tech people are a lower form of life. He has no idea what he wants to produce or how to do it, but he expects people to come to him with completed projects. All I can say is that this will be an interesting company to watch but I liken it to a gold exploration company -- I wouldn't even consider investing until they pour their first dole bar. Good luck S.MG, you will need it.

[MPOE-PR]

It's very easy to control the cashflow in the game. Handling the game currency isn't the issue, it's what players do with it, which you can't control. Sometimes this is good, sometime this is bad.

This is completely false, for the record. It is impossible to control the cashflow of fiat gold in a game even if you are exceptionally gifted in the field [of finance]. Absolutely nobody ever involved in game production to date was, and consequently this impression that "it's easy" and a solved problem simply belies a lot of Dunning-Kruger effect (ie, people are too clueless to even realize how clueless they are).

For that matter if you ask any fiat, inflationary economist they'll tell you the exact same thing: it's easy to control the cashflow in a country and mostly a solved problem. It never happens to be the case, in spite of actually gifted people in the field [of finance] being involved. So no, by no means has there yet existed an MMORPG which correctly handles the game gold problem, and I'm pretty sure unless this project succeeds there won't be for a long, long time (because people who grok this sort of thing are usually spending their time elsewhere, and it's a quite unique and incredible alignment of political and financial interests that has happened to declare the village of Gameville the site of what will be a famous battle, so there's all sorts of high value bipedals the likes of which Gameville's never seen before swarming around it - the windup to the "George Washington slept here" cultural phenomenon).

Usually people think you incompetent when you use less than the best examples, like calling Kenny G a jazz musician in front of Miles Davis.

Ehehe, good pic.

But yes, it's true, using less than the best example to make your own case is usually construed as incompetence ("he either doesn't know the field enough or doesn't understand the problem enough to pick the better example") whereas doing the same to represent the opposing case is usually construed as at best incompetence. Way of the world.

An RPG by design requires grinding, some force it by design. You can't beat a boss, you grind levels until you're strong enough to do so. Farming, (if you're defining it as the act of grinding mobs for the sole purpose of acquiring loot), on it's own accord doesn't inflate the economy. When it's combined with mass sell-offs, like anything else, then the economy in the game tanks due to inflationary reasons. This I completely understand. Final Fantasy XI suffered massive inflation due to Chinese farmers selling Gil as a business. The only option Square had was to delete some billion+ Gil to force deflation.

This is an intricate point, because it's made out of completely different things which you improperly conflate.

So, first off: a BAD design requires grinding. That's all. It has nothing to do with RPGs; a bad marriage design requires marriage grinding, a badly organized job requires job grinding, a badly designed RPG requires RPG grinding.

Second: farming is the act of playing half the game. If the flow of gameplay can be divided into two portions, portion A and portion B, where A is perceived by players as extraneous to their enjoyment of the game, then A will be outsourced (to Chinese businesses, of course) and the game is broken. This is exactly what farming proves (to the hardheaded idiots who think "they solved currency" above): the game is badly designed.

Third: farming always inflates the economy. It makes no difference if it is or if it isn't combined with mass sell-offs of anything, this is clueless voodooman blaming one of the symptoms, much akin to medieval minds thinking that the coughing is what makes phthisic patients lose weight and there's no such thing as Koch's bacillus. The presence of meaningless crap that's money in name only is the problem, and the game designer trying to apply Western welfarism to "make the game better" (or moreover, just because he's culturally immersed in welfarism and can't quite think outside of Weber for lack of any exposure to actual culture, or even to first hand Weber crap for that matter) fails for the same reason the same nonsense fails when applied by politicians (who often seem children who aspired to design games but never got anywhere, much like our friend usagi). IRL they tend to blame "speculators" (look at Venezuela) for the IRL equivalent of "massive sell-offs". Nonsense & poppycock, they broke it, not the Chinese businessmen providing the very valuable and very respectable service of making it plain how stupid Mr. Designerman was.

Lastly, the idea that deleting players' cash is even something game management may contemplate, let alone implement is fucking scandalous.

Bitcoin will definitely solve 2), and I assume you're going to limit 1) as you see fit.

Actually I'm told there's going to be a Design Document Highlights announcement later on, so commentary on this will have to wait for that.

Repeating the formula never works because the timing no longer exists. "Right place right time" sort of thing I suppose.

It'd seem it's not because of time, tho. It'd seem it's because "we already have that, ty".

Second Life?

Yeah, perhaps that also counts for "largest", depending how you look at things. Good point.

[Deprived]

An RPG by design requires grinding, some force it by design.

That's untrue.

You only have to consider single-player RPGs to see why.  How much grinding did you do in the best single-player RPGs you've played?  If you've ever played pen-and-paper RPGs you won't have done any grinding either.

Grinding exists because players can consume original content faster than the developers can produce it - not because it HAS to exist.  It's a replacement for meaningful content - a cheap way to keep players feeling like they're doing something whilst they wait for the next update.  It's also widely used as a means to inflate play-through time - so 2 hours of interesting gameplay becomes 102 hours of play time (100 of which is mindless grinding).  It is NOT something that MUST exist just because something's tagged as an RPG.

[thestringpuller]

I had a few round table discussions with the interesting points that came up. I must say some interesting things came to light.

First off something unrelated to S.MG:

(who often seem children who aspired to design games but never got anywhere, much like our friend usagi)

You bring up this point in one of your "legacy" posts as well in relation to starting a "Bitcoin business". I let this swirl around for a good bit and after speaking with one of my buddies in the film industry about a project we are producing for Mr. Popescu, I recognized a pattern I hadn't recognized before. It goes back to your quote:

“You’re the guy who wasn’t good enough to sling dope.”

You always find those naturally intuitive in this field. That one uneducated fellow who happens to make a small fortune "running the streets". He starts with $20 dollars, turns it to $100. Soon that turns into $1000 dollars, and before you know it, a new kingpin is born.

However I started thinking about the failures in this field, every burnt out weed dealer who can barely manage to keep his operation running. They always seem to be running incredibly late, never giving an accurate time estimate. When they take out product on credit they always come up short. But these are symptoms of a deeper problem Mr. Popescu alludes to in his Trilema article titled aptly:  http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/

You have the burnt out high school dropout, who can't deal drugs, calling himself a drug dealer. On top of this, not only do they believe they are a drug dealer, they wholeheartedly have faith in their abilities despite the contrary evidence to their obvious failures. They reek of undue arrogance. Subsequently like Kayne West, you "can't tell [them] nothing".

But more importantly, these are the type of people in any industry who will bring down the team. They wish to be the ones with fans without truly earning it. I recall an IRC chat log:

18:59 < meh> Wait, wait, wait. I was talking to the owner of MPEX?
18:59 < guruvan> In presence of celebrity
19:00 < Ukto> meh: and you didnt get his autograph???
19:01 < guruvan> irc autographs are teh best

More importantly those who understand their limitations and strengths intuitively find a way to sling dope. They are the street urchin who one day pops up as the new kingpin. Many will claim Popescu fits the category of arrogance, but even he follows the old saying, "Know Thyself", in regards to his limitations:

12:15 < thestringpuller> mircea_popescu: it seems you are opposed to a ratings agency for BTC
12:16 < mircea_popescu> there's nobody with the intellectual ability to do such a thing.
12:16 < thestringpuller> not even yourself?
12:16 < mircea_popescu> not even myself.

Onto the good stuff:

So, first off: a BAD design requires grinding. That's all. It has nothing to do with RPGs; a bad marriage design requires marriage grinding, a badly organized job requires job grinding, a badly designed RPG requires RPG grinding.

So I did a little reading, a little round table discussing, and a lot of researching.

What I discover also answers:

Grinding exists because players can consume original content faster than the developers can produce it - not because it HAS to exist.  It's a replacement for meaningful content - a cheap way to keep players feeling like they're doing something whilst they wait for the next update.  It's also widely used as a means to inflate play-through time - so 2 hours of interesting gameplay becomes 102 hours of play time (100 of which is mindless grinding).  It is NOT something that MUST exist just because something's tagged as an RPG.

Definitely. But the most likely reason grinding has become so deeply ingrained in the video game based RPG is due to the limitations of the classic consoles such as the NES. Anyone who has programmed on one of these understands these limitations are pretty extreme in comparison to modern day computers. The designers of Dragon Warrior, one of the first non-text based video game RPG's, is iconic for the slime monster kicking your ass at the start of the game. This immediately forces the player to grind. The designers intention was to create a feeling of "training" or forcing the player to train in response to strong creatures. In a DND campaign where one isn't limited by computational power, an elegant storyline of the party going to a dojo can exist, and levels are disbursed through a scenario where grinding needn't exist.

Saying grinding is "bad by design" is a little blanketing. In FFXI, a notorious game, grinding was the main feature of the game. A lot of people hated it, but just as many people loved it. Grinding came second to the storyline and "quests", making it a game of training, and subsequently discovery once strength was developed. Grinding wasn't mindless, but required skill, it required a party to work together in a harmony not seen in many other games. Each person played their role.

If a healer healed to fast while fighting a mob, he ran out of MP, the tank died, and mob went on to attack the rest of the party, and everyone died.
If the tank didn't maintain the aggression of the mob, the creature went after the healer (since healing aggravates mobs), who died, and subsequently everyone died.

The examples can go on and on and on. I wasn't trying to say grinding must exist for a game to be called an RPG, but merely it has become a part of "tradition" for a lack of a better word. Moreover there are ways to design grinding so it's done well. And when I say grinding I mean the act of killing mobs for no other reason than to gather drops or experience.

Rote and repetitive gameplay is the problem which is generally what grinding amounts to. In the case of Final Fantasy, your role (as whatever job you decided to be), changed depending on the structure of your party. This created a more dynamic feeling to the act of grinding and made it not tedious for the more experience player due to the rewarding nature, rather than it being a rote repetitive task. One quote that sums it up is: "Every battle is like a boss fight." When grinding in FFXI the slightest fuck-up resulted in cataclysmic failure.

Again I'm not saying grinding is necessary. That's definitely not the case, I'm just saying it shouldn't be written off as "bad design".

This is completely false, for the record. It is impossible to control the cashflow of fiat gold in a game even if you are exceptionally gifted in the field [of finance]. Absolutely nobody ever involved in game production to date was, and consequently this impression that "it's easy" and a solved problem simply belies a lot of Dunning-Kruger effect

I think this circles back to the strength of the finite ability of bitcoin. Finite being the keyword. How the cash flows within a game from player to player is a different beast entirely, but games have been very successful in making usable resources finite within the game system.

Star Wars Galaxies, many years back (in the 2004 era), had a system where every "usable" item in the game (weapons, clothes, armor, everything really), was crafted by another player in game. As well, all the resources items were created from, were very limited. This created a very profound emergent effect on the gameplay. Like people digging for oil, various resources on planets would start to deplete over time as people mined them. This created an economy where a lot of people bartered with resources rather than the in game currency.

SWG is a terrible example, for a multitude of other reasons, but for the sake of example I used it. I would think that a system where everything is finite would completely change the mindset of players from trying to "rape the planet" via farming, to becoming efficient hunters as you spoke of earlier. Perhaps I'm simplifying the solution, but I'm trying to understand your mentality on this one.

Lastly, the idea that deleting players' cash is even something game management may contemplate, let alone implement is fucking scandalous.

As scandalous as it was, the China-farmers were breaking the ToA by selling Gil. The management took an active approach to the ever inflating economy by deleting accounts which were selling Gil "illegally", in term deleting their Gil. This in turn did work, very well in fact, deflating the prices in the auction houses by nearly 100%.

Was this a good solution? Probably not, it's like putting a band-aid on a wound that requires stitching. As you stated previous the China-farmer is exploiting something that is already broken. The designer is to blame, not the farmer.

[usagi]

This is completely false, for the record. It is impossible to control the cashflow of fiat gold in a game even if you are exceptionally gifted in the field [of finance]. Absolutely nobody ever involved in game production to date was, and consequently this impression that "it's easy" and a solved problem simply belies a lot of Dunning-Kruger effect (ie, people are too clueless to even realize how clueless they are).

It's called education; those without it often berate those with. You and Mr. Popescu are no different. You will attack someone for not having an education or not being a success; all the while not having an education and not being responsible for your own success as well.

So, first off: a BAD design requires grinding. That's all. It has nothing to do with RPGs; a bad marriage design requires marriage grinding, a badly organized job requires job grinding, a badly designed RPG requires RPG grinding.

Second: farming is the act of playing half the game. If the flow of gameplay can be divided into two portions, portion A and portion B, where A is perceived by players as extraneous to their enjoyment of the game, then A will be outsourced (to Chinese businesses, of course) and the game is broken. This is exactly what farming proves (to the hardheaded idiots who think "they solved currency" above): the game is badly designed.

Having actually played nearly every RPG game in existence, I can at least say something about what keeps me coming back to the genre. It's precisely the opposite of CSR racing. In CSR racing, you have a 10-15 second car race, and you spend about the same time upgrading your car between races if you're quick. And once the game is over, it's really over -- there is no "endgame", and you didn't really earn anything, because you have no skin in the game. Part of the appeal of a RPG is in fact farming and grinding. The journey -- not the destination. And in a MMORPG it's doing that together with (and at times against) others you meet online. This is something that you appear not to get. The problem is not the economy or the gold flow, which is just something you tune to the progression. The problem is that you want to make money from all this. You want to charge a subscription, or have a real money economy, or whatever. And that brings out the farmers. Because as soon as you make people pay for their success one way or another, they will find a way to pay someone else to have that success for them.

Kind of like how Mr. Popescu pays you to argue on his behalf. Or how he paid people to write MPEX (he didn't write it himself).

The same problem exists in a different form in games like Tomb Raider. People will go look up a walkthrough to the game instead of sitting there trying to figure it out themselves. Not all the time mind you -- just on the 5% of the game they don't enjoy. There is pretty much nothing you can do to prevent this from happening to your game. People will not play your game if they can not be entertained and get a sense of achievement from it, and nothing you can do to give a player a sense of achievement can be made non-transferable. In days gone past this means people would often not finish games. Nowadays, everyone finishes every game. If they can't finish it, they just open up a walkthough-FAQ for the game. You can see this in how games like Half-life have changed over the years. Half-life contained many jump and platform puzzles that Half-life 2 did not contain. It's not because the puzzles were too difficult. It's because some people found them tedious or boring. So the game was made easier, and as a result the story had to be a lot stronger and more involving. The puzzles had to be more cranial and less in-game-physical. But you do not have this luxury with a RPG, if that is really what you are attempting to design. Screwing with the genre will just make you turn out a shitty game. We know this now. Being honest I don't know what your plan is for your in-game-economy but I am pretty sure you will not be reinventing the genre any time soon ;-)

Third: farming always inflates the economy. It makes no difference if it is or if it isn't combined with mass sell-offs of anything, this is clueless voodooman blaming one of the symptoms, much akin to medieval minds thinking that the coughing is what makes phthisic patients lose weight and there's no such thing as Koch's bacillus. The presence of meaningless crap that's money in name only is the problem, and the game designer trying to apply Western welfarism to "make the game better" (or moreover, just because he's culturally immersed in welfarism and can't quite think outside of Weber for lack of any exposure to actual culture, or even to first hand Weber crap for that matter) fails for the same reason the same nonsense fails when applied by politicians (who often seem children who aspired to design games but never got anywhere, much like our friend usagi). IRL they tend to blame "speculators" (look at Venezuela) for the IRL equivalent of "massive sell-offs". Nonsense & poppycock, they broke it, not the Chinese businessmen providing the very valuable and very respectable service of making it plain how stupid Mr. Designerman was.

You're being an idiot again. Based on what you've said (i.e. "Farming always inflates the economy") can't we conclude you don't really understand progression or economy? In any RPG game there is a progression, not an economy. An 'economy' is just a means to control progression. It means that certain people who have reached a certain level no longer need to look for certain items or go to certain areas anymore.

Other means of controlling progression are level caps, item levels, skill points/skills which unlock at a certain level, time-based controls (such as the pulleys in Act III of Diablo III) and so forth. It's just a method of controlling how long players need to spend in a certain level before they can progress to the next area. Metering content. That is all. I find it so telling how you are discussing the gold and economy of a RPG in place of progression, when discussing problems like "Chinese farmers". You need to understand game design before you can start talking about a revenue model, or you get trainwrecks like trying to put me down by comparing me to a politician immersed in welfarism (another one of the "MPOE-PR talks game design" wtf moments, I suppose?)

I really can't wait to see what you guys are going to come up with. I'll be honest, I never once thought anything connected to MPEX would ever fail, and I was really surprised when MPOE bond had back to back double digit losses. But this is the first project associated with Mr. Popescu that I am sure will fail. It's the way you spurn advice. Let me clue you in. You're the cheezball who thinks they have a new concept for a social network. You know, the marketing genius or fresh MBA grad that thinks they're going to hire their way into running the next twitter. It's just not going to happen. It's your attitude -- not enough that you succeed but that others fail  sort of thing -- combined with trying to break into game design it makes you look and sound like a total douche. You guys are clearly in way over your head on this one. I cannot possibly imagine you guys coming up with any sort of MMORPG at all.

[MPOE-PR]

Saying grinding is "bad by design" is a little blanketing. In FFXI, a notorious game, grinding was the main feature of the game. A lot of people hated it, but just as many people loved it. Grinding came second to the storyline and "quests", making it a game of training, and subsequently discovery once strength was developed. Grinding wasn't mindless, but required skill, it required a party to work together in a harmony not seen in many other games. Each person played their role.

Probably. I might venture as far as to say that the principal value of WoW is exactly this grinding, that some people apparently like, and that the failure to implement same is the actual cause of the D3 collapse, in spite of all the numerous other defects countless web-commentators found.

And when I say grinding I mean the act of killing mobs for no other reason than to gather drops or experience.

Well in an RCE game in a sense this is somewhat obliquely present, in the sense that the player is (usually) attentive to efficiency, which means he primarily does whatever he's doing because it's productive rather than because "it's what the storyline hath ordained".

the China-farmers were breaking the ToA by selling Gil

That's okay, ToA are about as scandalous.

The problem is that you want to make money from all this.

Get a job already.

Or how he paid people to write MPEX (he didn't write it himself).

You say that as if it's a bad thing. I can't begin to contemplate what must be going on inside the skullous cavity of some dood imagining exchange executives write the code the exchange works on. Because Bitcoin, still?

I really can't wait to see what you guys are going to come up with.

Yeah, I can tell. And you're not the only one, either.

I guess this is because I don't understand PR or whatever.

and I was really surprised when MPOE bond had back to back double digit losses.

Don't remind me of that issue where you and harnett provided the losses to go with MPOE's performance last year. There's a difference between a bulwark propping up a market on one end (something nobody else has done or could conceivably do apart from MPOE) and some idiot mismanaging funds to spectacular results (something pretty much anyone can do, just like you can).

[usagi]

The problem is that you want to make money from all this.

Get a job already.

No, you don't get it. You have to listen to what people tell you and stop being such a kid. The problem is you want to make money from your game in a "fuck the player as long as we get paid" way. You are putting the money first and it will ruin your game. I am not even close to the first person who has told you this, which is why I quoted thestringpuller. S.MG should probably hire him as a consultant. After what I read from him, I would do so myself if I was involved in game design. He is spot on about everything, although notably he missed with Richard Garriot, who was the producer of Lineage and Lineage II, City of Heroes, etc. as well as a designer and/or producer of a number of other recent games. The next WoW could very well come from him, I wouldn't have characterized him as someone with a small at-home following at all.

Or how he paid people to write MPEX (he didn't write it himself).

You say that as if it's a bad thing. I can't begin to contemplate what must be going on inside the skullous cavity of some dood imagining exchange executives write the code the exchange works on. Because Bitcoin, still?

It's not a bad thing. It's that you seem to place a great deal of value on success and the ability to get things done, yet you reject advice which comes to you (albeit through others) from successful, accomplished game designers. It's this:

Absolutely nobody ever involved in game production to date was, and consequently this impression that "it's easy" and a solved problem simply belies a lot of Dunning-Kruger effect (ie, people are too clueless to even realize how clueless they are).

It's the irony of it all. And then you try to make it personal. I'm a child-politician engrossed in welfarism, so you don't have to take my advice. Or I don't have a job. Or whatever. You reek of failure and incompetence. If I was the only person telling you these things it would be different, but I'm not.

We'll see how far you get in game design, it will be interesting to watch. But right now you have nothing, no projections, no dates. Nothing but a lot of talk. The way this is going I'll finish kongzi.ca before you even have a zone editor.

[nubbins]

right now you have nothing, no projections, no dates.

To be fair, PR's game art contest has been attracting some really serious contenders. It should just be a matter of time before they assemble an entire team of top-shelf undiscovered talent.

[usagi]

right now you have nothing, no projections, no dates.

To be fair, PR's game art contest has been attracting some really serious contenders. It should just be a matter of time before they assemble an entire team of top-shelf undiscovered talent.

I would like to see a great new game as much as anyone.

[thestringpuller]

Probably. I might venture as far as to say that the principal value of WoW is exactly this grinding, that some people apparently like, and that the failure to implement same is the actual cause of the D3 collapse, in spite of all the numerous other defects countless web-commentators found.

Maybe some people liked the grinding in WoW, but it was definitely manifested in a different way. There is no absolute dependency on a party. What occurs in WoW is the romantic solo-quest. When partying occurs it's just an extension of this mentality, as well skill really isn't truly necessary. If you watch someone in a WoW dungeon, they rapidly hit keys as if they are trying to refresh reddit when it's down. FFXI is far different due to the timing requirements. Press a button too quick and you fuck-up, press it too late and you fuck up. The entire action of fighting was designed to be fulfilling, holding true to the Final Fantasy franchise, and in turn the process of grinding became fulfilling. It's a sort of emergent gameplay built on a fundamentally sound concept.

In WoW this was highly diluted, for the sake of difficulty. FFXI turned a lot of would-be players off because they had trouble acclimating to the skill level. However many veteran players (which I definitely would not include myself in this category), would say this barrier to entry made the social aspect of the game more fulfilling because the game punishes incompetence.

WoW was always an endeavor to the end level, as the end content was the treat everyone wanted. Maybe in the beginning the journey was fulfilling, but after some time, this became increasingly more "rote" due to the allure of the endgame. This became so pervasive, Blizzard created several "events" and "bonuses" which gave the player double XP. Where in the original incarnation of WoW it would take a least a few months of heavy play time to get to max level. It is said a player can reach max level in the most current incarnation in a matter of weeks.

usagi adequately stated "the journey not the destination". WoW focuses on the destination, FFXI the journey. WoW became more accessible, and subsequently extremely profitable.

I ultimately think you're game will have similar principles to FFXI, focusing on skill rather than rote mundane tasks. Ultimately that's more fulfilling to the player.

You're focused on the effects of farming, the inflationary nature of resources being infinite. This is a definitely and interesting point. As you state in the quote below, when there is only enough money to buy one "Super Awesome Sword of Chaos" in the entire game, it creates an entirely different mindset. If this sword only can have on instance of itself within the entire game as a limitation, this definitely creates a different mindset from the traditional "lets get money by killing shit". I guess you and MP were baffled and annoyed that monsters dropped gold coins in the traditional RPG. I don't blame you.

Well in an RCE game in a sense this is somewhat obliquely present, in the sense that the player is (usually) attentive to efficiency, which means he primarily does whatever he's doing because it's productive rather than because "it's what the storyline hath ordained".

As stated above with FFXI this isn't constrained to merely an RCE game. This is particularly clear in Dark Souls which is a game in-which the fundamental level of play is dependent on how skilled the player is with his or her character. You see the same signs, the player is more attentive to his items, his movements, his actions, and his growth. Completing tasks/quests within the game bring a certain "fuck yea" level of satisfaction, unlike a simple quest in WoW.

Perhaps it's purely the difficulty, but that seems to be simplifying it too much.

Adding something such as permadeath for the hardcore player usually instantly raises the player's awareness. But that doesn't create any more depth to the existing experience.

Depth is ultimately achieved through the content. Everything within the game attributes to the player experience. This attention to the level of detail is why the GTA franchise has become so successful.

It's the irony of it all. And then you try to make it personal. I'm a child-politician engrossed in welfarism, so you don't have to take my advice. Or I don't have a job. Or whatever. You reek of failure and incompetence. If I was the only person telling you these things it would be different, but I'm not.

I hope you're not saying I'm saying that, because I'm not.

Just because an individual doesn't have the capacity to perform a task themselves, doesn't mean this person can't procure the necessary resources. This is moot. Perhaps S.MG goes up in flames, but if this is the case, it will be a Hindenburg-like explosion that will be witnessed for miles, and not a puff of smoke. I believe in fundamentals in game design. I play devil's advocate here because I hate when designers use a lot of smoke and mirrors to mask bad design.

No, you don't get it. You have to listen to what people tell you and stop being such a kid. The problem is you want to make money from your game in a "fuck the player as long as we get paid" way. You are putting the money first and it will ruin your game. I am not even close to the first person who has told you this, which is why I quoted thestringpuller. S.MG should probably hire him as a consultant. After what I read from him, I would do so myself if I was involved in game design. He is spot on about everything, although notably he missed with Richard Garriot, who was the producer of Lineage and Lineage II, City of Heroes, etc. as well as a designer and/or producer of a number of other recent games. The next WoW could very well come from him, I wouldn't have characterized him as someone with a small at-home following at all.

They do listen, and in particular Mr. Popescu is willing to listen to reason. Perhaps the reason S.MG is hyperfocused on the business plan is because whatever the designer is doing will not be seen by us unless approved by Mr. Popescu. The designer (if they have one yet), is locked in a box, far way from the public. MPOE-PR even stated that as one of the benefits of being a developer in contract with S.MG.

I'm flattered at people thinking I should be a game design consultant, but I'm just pointing out the fundamentals. Anyone significantly more experienced than I, and is a designer by trade will point out similar things.

[usagi]

WoW focuses on the destination, FFXI the journey. WoW became more accessible, and subsequently extremely profitable.

Well WoW is an old game now, so declining subscription rates are not as meaningful as they may have been earlier -- but I was under the impression that WoW has been hemorrhaging players for quite some time. They made a very dramatic shift from focusing on the early and middle progression of the game to the late game, and destroyed new player's experience of the early game entirely. It began with flying mounts, which removed the need to explore the land on quests. It's like a trope, walking form one place to another repeatedly. In Ultima it was, Lord British tells you to find Mariah in the Lycaeum, (or in Moonglow in one version), then when you find her you have to go back to Lord British, who then sends you after someone else. Back and forth. It was an impetus to explore and just dick around in the game and have fun in your role. Something which I have only really seen expressed well recently in Fallout 3 -- a game I enjoyed much more than WoW and which I feel has a greater replay value.

It's the irony of it all. And then you try to make it personal. I'm a child-politician engrossed in welfarism, so you don't have to take my advice. Or I don't have a job. Or whatever. You reek of failure and incompetence. If I was the only person telling you these things it would be different, but I'm not.

I hope you're not saying I'm saying that, because I'm not.

No, MPOE-PR likes to make quips at me for some reason, that was in response to her.

They do listen, and in particular Mr. Popescu is willing to listen to reason. Perhaps the reason S.MG is hyperfocused on the business plan is because whatever the designer is doing will not be seen by us unless approved by Mr. Popescu. The designer (if they have one yet), is locked in a box, far way from the public. MPOE-PR even stated that as one of the benefits of being a developer in contract with S.MG.

I'm flattered at people thinking I should be a game design consultant, but I'm just pointing out the fundamentals. Anyone significantly more experienced than I, and is a designer by trade will point out similar things.

Well like I said, I'm interested to see what they will put out.

[MPOE-PR]

No, you don't get it. You have to listen to what people tell you and stop being such a kid.

Kids listen to what people tell them. Because they do not have a choice in the matter. Because they don't have a job.

"People" does not denote and cannot be stretched to denote random forum cumrags/lolcows such as yourself.

Let me recap some chief points to perhaps more palatably flavor the spent grease captive between your ears:

I think on one end you are confusing public opinion with forum agitation, and on the other Nobody Cares what FanFic Says. It's a rule. People who try and please a public are neither artists nor ever successful, and it occurs to me that probably the greatest service S.MG offers developers is complete immunity from having to ever listen to Internet people.

None of this crap is a contribution, or useful, or welcome. We don't need ideas, we don't want ideas. We have plenty of ideas, and I can assure you nobody over at S.MG even reads or ever will read any of this crap, outside of me, and my orders are to just discard it whole.

right now you have nothing, no projections, no dates.

To be fair, PR's game art contest has been attracting some really serious contenders. It should just be a matter of time before they assemble an entire team of top-shelf undiscovered talent.

Actually the relation between you and art closely approximates the relation between usagi and finance. Come to think of it, that coincidence begs the question whether you're also gender ambiguous and nationality confused. Do you know what year it is?

There is no absolute dependency on a party. What occurs in WoW is the romantic solo-quest.

IANAE, but isn't the entire point of WoW raiding, and is it pretty much impossible to play if you're in a shitty guild that can't raid worth a crap?

as well skill really isn't truly necessary.

Dude this is shocking news to me, I've seen so many dorks dork all over each other on the basis of absent of insufficient wowskills?!

I ultimately think you're game will have similar principles to FFXI, focusing on skill rather than rote mundane tasks. Ultimately that's more fulfilling to the player.

I am authorized to anticipatorily state that moreover the game won't have an end. A game design announcement still is scheduled, probably will clarify a lot of points. Likely sometime in July.

when there is only enough money to buy one "Super Awesome Sword of Chaos" in the entire game, it creates an entirely different mindset.

Not to mention it creates cooperative behavior of a kind never seen before in mmorpgs: sword RENTING.

Think about it: if you were to identify a town in your own head not by some arbitrary name the developers alloted it, but by the fact that it's that one town which owns that one sword which does X exceptionally well....

Adding something such as permadeath for the hardcore player usually instantly raises the player's awareness. But that doesn't create any more depth to the existing experience.

I am sadly not authorized to comment on this point, but if I were you'd be wowed right now. Sucks to be me.

No, MPOE-PR likes to make quips at me for some reason, that was in response to her.

For "some reason"? Ask sir Reginald Greyhawk what the reason might be. He might ask for pay first however.

[nubbins]

right now you have nothing, no projections, no dates.

To be fair, PR's game art contest has been attracting some really serious contenders. It should just be a matter of time before they assemble an entire team of top-shelf undiscovered talent.

Actually the relation between you and art closely approximates the relation between usagi and finance. Come to think of it, that coincidence begs the question whether you're also gender ambiguous and nationality confused. Do you know what year it is?

Just call me Pat.

Your false assumption is that you are a capable judge of what's art and what's not, which is an amusing situation in that it actually begs the question. But hey, phrases change meaning all the time, so for all intensive purposes, you spoke correctly.

Not to mention it creates cooperative behavior of a kind never seen before in mmorpgs: sword RENTING.

Would work in the library eBook rental sense. If you go to Terrible Boner Town and rent the chalice of terrible boners, the Terrible Bonians would want some sort of assurance they'd get their chalice back, instead of just getting stuck with permanent priapism every time someone "rents" a chalice.

permadeath

I am sadly not authorized to comment on this point, but if I were you'd be wowed right now

(!!!)

This brings us back to the usefulness of in-game banks, or at least safes. If ol' Reggie Greyhawk was holding his full wallet when he got killed, he'd be awful sad. You'd make a killing on deposit/withdrawal fees alone.

He might ask for pay first however.

Well, I don't have any gold on me, but I've got this chalice, see...

[greyhawk]

If ol' Reggie Greyhawk was holding his full wallet when he got killed, he'd be awful sad.

Thats why I don't play MMORPGs.

Also when I play a game I don't wanna deal with internet people. If I wanted to deal with internet people I'd go troll a message board or something.

[Rival]

There is already a well-funded group developing proprietary gateway software to integrate a BTC economy into several major game platforms. If you are still at the stage of raising capital you have probably already missed the boat. It should have been obvious for at least a year that BTC is ideally suited to replace in-game currencies, especially if you want to migrate assets between platforms. The only sticking point has been the resistance to abandoning control of the value of current proprietary game currencies for a self-regulating one. But that resistance is beginning to crumble as the benefits begin to make themselves apparent. They are doing quite a bit behind the scenes on this, and whether they are successful will be for the future to determine. Please take this with a grain of salt, I can offer no proof, so just consider it a random rumor, and just another datapoint.

I am under NDA to really say anything else, so don't ask.

[Peter Lambert]

There is already a well-funded group developing proprietary gateway software to integrate a BTC economy into several major game platforms. If you are still at the stage of raising capital you have probably already missed the boat. It should have been obvious for at least a year that BTC is ideally suited to replace in-game currencies, especially if you want to migrate assets between platforms. The only sticking point has been the resistance to abandoning control of the value of current proprietary game currencies for a self-regulating one. But that resistance is beginning to crumble as the benefits begin to make themselves apparent. They are doing quite a bit behind the scenes on this, and whether they are successful will be for the future to determine. Please take this with a grain of salt, I can offer no proof, so just consider it a random rumor, and just another datapoint.

I am under NDA to really say anything else, so don't ask.

Until this "well-funded group" actually releases something it is still a wide open field.

S.MG is past the stage of raising capital, or didn't you notice that the IPO is already done?

[MPOE-PR]

There is already a well-funded group developing proprietary gateway software to integrate a BTC economy into several major game platforms. If you are still at the stage of raising capital you have probably already missed the boat.

Heh. You don't come here telling me that, sparky. I go to your thread telling you that.

Lurk moar.

It should have been obvious for at least a year that BTC is ideally suited to replace in-game currencies

It was.

Lurk moar.

I am under NDA to really say anything else, so don't ask.

Don't worry, I really don't give a shit. Your relative cluelessness tells me all I need to know about this "well-funded group".