Oh crap. I was afraid of this.

[billyjoeallen]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/economists-shortchange-the-benefits-of-capital-controls-20110624-1gjnb.html

The IMF is sending signals that capital controls are coming in Europe. This is huge and this is bad. Insolvent governments will forcibly prevent their own citizens from sending their money out of the country. The IMF used to categorically condemn this practice as economically unsound and downright tyrannical. Now? not so much.

"The big intellectual change has come from the International Monetary Fund, once an outright enemy of capital controls.

IMF economists have stopped treating the issue as one of good versus evil, and have started treating it as a run-of-the-mill economic choice: capital controls have costs and benefits that can be measured and compared. The IMF now argues that they should be one more tool for prudent policymakers to use as circumstances require."

Time is running out for the Greeks, Italians, Spanish, Irish and Portuguese to protect their assets.  Bitcoin is one way to do so. If your money is locked in a cage by someone else, is it really yours anymore?

[qualia8]

Good find.  The bought-and-paid-for political class will follow suit.  The question is, would you break the law to preserve your wealth?

[billyjoeallen]

It's worse than I thought!!

The guy who wrote the article (infavor of capital controls) is the FINANCE MINISTER OF CHILE!!!

That is where Trade Hill's servers are located!

[tavi]

Does anyone know if they (the EU) already have trigger-happy dogs with cash-sniffing pigs (oopsie, reverse that) partolling the airports and train/bus stations, like in the good ol' USofA?

[myrkul]

Soo.... How's that BTC over I2P coming?

[DrYe5]

It's worse than I thought!!

The guy who wrote the article (infavor of capital controls) WAS the FINANCE MINISTER OF CHILE!!!

That is where Trade Hill's servers are located!

Fixed.

In the first term of the current socialist leader, BTW.

[beeph]

all of south america is pretty much a giant contest to see who can mooch the most free stuff off everyone else, when talking financial services chile doesnt exactly spring to mind as a great location for it .. wasnt francois markelez from mtHax or whatever talking about a peer 2 peer open source exchange that could put an end to all these scamchanges once and for all?

[billyjoeallen]

It's worse than I thought!!

The guy who wrote the article (infavor of capital controls) WAS the FINANCE MINISTER OF CHILE!!!

That is where Trade Hill's servers are located!

Fixed.

In the first term of the current socialist leader, BTW.

Thank you. I caught that after re-reading it. Still scary as hell, though.

[killer2021]

This will be very good for bitcoin. Maybe not so much for freedom

Yea if there is anyone in greece. Go out protesting and walk around with some sort of sign that refers to bitcoin. Could get lots of exposure if it is picked up by a broadcast by a main stream media outlet.

[Jaime Frontero]

< shrug >

the europeans have spent centuries having their net worth (in all its forms) claimed by their various governments, in the name of "national assets".

and they have spent centuries shredding those claims, and laws.  i spent a little time myself, 'helping out'.

look into the spanish "impuesto". for example.

as for tradehill's servers being located in chile...

at this point i would have to believe that tradehill's management has mastered the art of bribery (and it is an art) - or they wouldn't still have a functional website.

folks - don't ever get so lost in dogma that you ignore practicalities...

[hugolp]

The IMF has a criteria for developed nations and another criteria for undeveloped nations. It has always been this way. They can try to hide it as a change of theories but it is just bullshit.

The IMF is the political hand of the USA and to some degree of their EU allies. Nothing more, nothing less.

[billyjoeallen]

This will be very good for bitcoin. Maybe not so much for freedom

I'm gonna almost feel guilty making so much money off of those poor economic refugees. almost.

[Jaime Frontero]

This will be very good for bitcoin. Maybe not so much for freedom

I'm gonna almost feel guilty making so much money off of those poor economic refugees. almost.

< shrug > again.

i don't worry so much about economic refugees.  wherever they go, they have a purpose in doing so, and therefore an intellect that can be dealt with.  but i wouldn't be so sure you're going to make money off them, if i were you - folks like that are usually pretty dedicated to their wealth.

what worries me is environmental refugees.  take the greeks - they are a perfect storm:  the worst economy in the EU at the moment, but they are also about to deal with the worst oncoming global warming issues.  it's a nasty combination - and they're not too likely to discuss it over tea...

[3phase]

I'm gonna almost feel guilty making so much money off of those poor economic refugees. almost.

Do you have a problem with making people happy? Or at least happier than they will be in their destroyed economy?

< shrug > again.

i don't worry so much about economic refugees.  wherever they go, they have a purpose in doing so, and therefore an intellect that can be dealt with.  but i wouldn't be so sure you're going to make money off them, if i were you - folks like that are usually pretty dedicated to their wealth.

He will, but they will as well. As long as they both remain reasonable in their demands. Abuse and exploit on the other hand lead to dead ends.

what worries me is environmental refugees.  take the greeks - they are a perfect storm:  the worst economy in the EU at the moment, but they are also about to deal with the worst oncoming global warming issues.  it's a nasty combination - and they're not too likely to discuss it over tea...

There's many places in Greece, (and I guess in other countries as well) where you can be really safe from the extreme environmental changes coming. And really, I don't believe the environmental refugees will be that many. I see more people dying because of denial, instead of thinking clearly and taking the steps to save themselves and their loved ones.

[MoonShadow]

Vastly more people would die from starvation in a massive economic breakdown in Greece than will die as a direct result of climate change in the worst case.  Even if tides rise a full 11 meters like the most extreme estimates claim, that will still take 100+ years to happen.  This kind of thing has been happening to Venice for hundreds of years.  No one is going to drown because they can't manage to escape the rising tides.

Honestly, kids.  Try and keep the global threats in perspective.

[Jaime Frontero]

Vastly more people would die from starvation in a massive economic breakdown in Greece than will die as a direct result of climate change in the worst case.  Even if tides rise a full 11 meters like the most extreme estimates claim, that will still take 100+ years to happen.  This kind of thing has been happening to Venice for hundreds of years.  No one is going to drown because they can't manage to escape the rising tides.

Honestly, kids.  Try and keep the global threats in perspective.

ummm... no.

it's the heat, in greece.  not the ocean-level rise.

look into it.

[oneforall]

No one is going to drown because they can't manage to escape the rising tides.

Really? no one?

[MoonShadow]

Vastly more people would die from starvation in a massive economic breakdown in Greece than will die as a direct result of climate change in the worst case.  Even if tides rise a full 11 meters like the most extreme estimates claim, that will still take 100+ years to happen.  This kind of thing has been happening to Venice for hundreds of years.  No one is going to drown because they can't manage to escape the rising tides.

Honestly, kids.  Try and keep the global threats in perspective.

ummm... no.

it's the heat, in greece.  not the ocean-level rise.

look into it.

And if climate change is true, and Greece becomes much hotter, what do you think happens to the agricultural base of Greece?  Again, economic crisis is the near term problem.  If people in Greece can't grow enough food for their populations due to the heat, the increases in viable farmlands in Siberia and Canada's Northern Territories would more than compensate, but if the Greeks can't afford to trade internationally, they starve.

[hunk]

what worries me is environmental refugees.  take the greeks - they are a perfect storm:  the worst economy in the EU at the moment, but they are also about to deal with the worst oncoming global warming issues.  it's a nasty combination - and they're not too likely to discuss it over tea...

You're right..We only drink frappe...

ummm... no.

it's the heat, in greece.  not the ocean-level rise.

look into it.

I don't know where you get your facts from,but I can tell you that this summer has not been any hotter than the previous one,or the one before that.

And if climate change is true, and Greece becomes much hotter, what do you think happens to the agricultural base of Greece?  Again, economic crisis is the near term problem.  If people in Greece can't grow enough food for their populations due to the heat, the increases in viable farmlands in Siberia and Canada's Northern Territories would more than compensate, but if the Greeks can't afford to trade internationally, they starve.

A valid point,but most of our agricultural products get traded to other EU countries,and for instance we end up buying olive oil from other countries anyway.
That is of course the way the market works.But you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that actually buys olive oil from the store,and not from some "family member" in the village.
So if we end up being unable to trade food,we will turn to our "families" to get some of the food they have stored away.
And maybe get to teach a 75 year old woman how to use bitcoins in the process.

I use quotation marks on family because it's usually someone not directly related to your family,not in the strict sense.

This will be very good for bitcoin. Maybe not so much for freedom

Yea if there is anyone in greece. Go out protesting and walk around with some sort of sign that refers to bitcoin. Could get lots of exposure if it is picked up by a broadcast by a main stream media outlet.

I'll do it if you pay me a bitcoin!Seriously though,if I were to go around preaching the virtues of bitcoin these are the most probable outcomes:

1)I get laughed at and thought of as a starving lunatic,saying that the internet is going to help us get out of this crisis...
2)I get a media outlet to interview me,and then they present me as a lunatic,by editing everything I said to become incoherent and accompany it by laugh tracks and stupid one-liners...
3)Maybe I get a few people to look into bitcoin,but most of them would get put off by the technical side and quit...Or worse..
4)They actually think they will get rich,so they buy a 600E pre-built computer install the client and after a day or two,when they haven't generated a single coin,I get to be the asshole that made them spent their money on something they didn't understand.

[MoonShadow]

And if climate change is true, and Greece becomes much hotter, what do you think happens to the agricultural base of Greece?  Again, economic crisis is the near term problem.  If people in Greece can't grow enough food for their populations due to the heat, the increases in viable farmlands in Siberia and Canada's Northern Territories would more than compensate, but if the Greeks can't afford to trade internationally, they starve.

A valid point,but most of our agricultural products get traded to other EU countries,and for instance we end up buying olive oil from other countries anyway.
That is of course the way the market works.But you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that actually buys olive oil from the store,and not from some "family member" in the village.
So if we end up being unable to trade food,we will turn to our "families" to get some of the food they have stored away.
And maybe get to teach a 75 year old woman how to use bitcoins in the process.

My point was, that if the climate change crazies are right about their worst case predictions, then Greece will have a much hotter & dryer climate, and thus the ag base will not be able to grow as much, limiting the local population in a future with limited international trade.  Your local connections are great, but it's actually impossible for all Greeks to be able to find local food sources in an economic crisis.