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Author Topic: [BitCentury] Metabank 120Gh 65nm Pre-Order Proxy [CLOSED]  (Read 79010 times)
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digitalmagus
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August 23, 2013, 11:01:39 PM
 #161

Hi guys,
As promised I've asked my translator to make a post in 65nm thread and ask Mu3HTP0n to ask Timur some questions. Here's his post:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=183368.msg2995610#msg2995610

Now let's see if we can actually get some answers. He will also try to call Metabank this weekend (assuming they answer phones on weekend) and then I'll let you guys know if they provided any answers to the below questions.

Here's the English version of the questions:

Quote
Mu3aHTP0n, I would be grateful if you could ask a few questions to Timur and let us know, as calling Metabank has yielded no answers so far. I apologize if these questions have already been asked earlier in this thread, but it saves me from reading 200 pages. Smiley


0. Can I still will pick up by the device if so when and how will we get geographical address? Or if not, what are the other options?

1. As I understand it, the device will ship with the housing already. If so, what kind of casing is it? Plexiglass?

2. How many 8-chip (2.9GH/chip) boards will be in the device? 5 (116 GH max) or 6 (139 GH)?  

3. The devices will be packaged in a box that can survive long-distance delivery? With styrofoam?

4. The power supply is 220V? Or dual-voltage 110/220V?

5. How many watts will consume the entire unit?

6. Whether the unit is certified in accordance with CE, UL and RoHS?

7. What software for mining will be supplied with the device? cgminer?

8. What methods of communication will be in the unit? Wifi, USB, Ethernet?

9. What is the weight and dimensions of the device?

10. When 2.9GH/sec the temperature will be about 100 degrees. What kind of cooling will the system have? Will it have heat sinks and fans for each blade?

11. Are all the necessary cables included to operate the machine (i.e power, ethernet, USB, etc) or not?
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August 23, 2013, 11:10:19 PM
 #162

In other news...
1. My plane ticket to Moscow has been purchased today. I will be there somewhere around late 1st week or up to mid 2nd week of Sept. I don't want to disclose exact dates for my personal security, but will post from Moscow to say that I am there, once I am there Smiley.  This is not guaranteed yet as the Visa approval process will take almost 2 full weeks and I won't know if Visa is approved until literally a few days just before I am supposed to leave.

2. We also looked at a Ukraine thread where they were talking about Metabank. See here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186234.msg2954355#msg2954355
Specifically, they posted this picture:


Note that this is not necessarily what Metabank will be shipping. This thread is primarily related to Ukrainian people who bought Bitfury chips and are doing their own thing. Just wanted to clear that up. Getting back to the 65nm thread, the Mu3 guy (sorry not typing out his weird alias every time), said he'd be trying to get a picture of the finished units soon. Once we have those hopefully a lot of questions will be answered as well.

Have a great weekend everyone,
Luis
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August 24, 2013, 04:13:49 AM
 #163

Thanks for the update. Hopefully we can get a shipping date within the next few weeks. Cheers.
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August 24, 2013, 04:15:29 AM
 #164

Looking good fellas.  Thanks for the constant updates and keeping everyone in the loop. 
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August 24, 2013, 04:43:11 PM
Last edit: August 25, 2013, 12:36:45 AM by digitalmagus
 #165

Hello again,

We called Metabank and a little information is below, but first some ...

Comments to our questions from the 65nm Metabank Russian thread (paraphrased):
-  It seems at least a few people in the 65nm Russian thread liked our questions.
- One said, come on Timur, answer the questions, don't wait around for Vasily (Mu3) to do it
- A few sarcastic remarks:  "yeah, let's hope they will certify the devices everywhere possible, it'd take time exactly till october"; "otherwise "an uncle vasya the local electrician" [russian fig. of speech, like "average joe the electrician"] can show up like: "hey, you're mining without a certificate!"
- SectorZero is expecting the system to be 'frying' like the avalon his friend has in the basement.

My observation:
- If the chips really are clocked at 2.9GH, expect these systems to produce a *LOT* of heat (If 5 blades * 8 chips = 40 chips, producing ~100 degrees Celsius worth of heat). Whatever cooling they provide is going to be critical to keeping the system stable. In any case, be prepared for dealing with all the heat these boxes will generate.

Metabank Call Aug 24, 2013:
- The devices will NOT have any certifications (i.e. UL, CE, RoHS, etc) because this would delay device availability by at least 1 month. We can try to label them as 'computer engineering prototypes' or something of the sort - if you have some good advice for this, we're listening. If they ship with standard PC power supplies, we won't have to worry about UL certification as they should already be certified. As for RoHS, that's an option you select when you get PCBs printed. Typically costs about 15-20% more, but ensures there is no lead in the product. They still allow non-RoHS PCBs to be printed even in North America, but only for prototypes. For consumer products it is required to have RoHS compliance, although not all PCB manufacturers really enforce that. The CE certification would be much trickier.  Just to be clear, this will not be our responsibility if customs doesn't clear it because of lack of certifications. On the flip side, Avalon's boxes were not CE certified, and the vast majority of them cleared customs without issues, we think primarily because they looked like computer boxes.
- They are on target to start "unloading" at the end of this month or first week of September. (I will have to get clarification on what "unloading" is meant here exactly, but I assume it means unloading into customer's hands).
- Not all devices at once, but first orders get devices first. (Note that we didn't start offering our service until Metabank was selling units for several days, I'd have to go back and check, but the bulk of our orders were even several days after that).
- The device box is made of plastic, not plexiglass
- There will most likely not be any packaging provided for people picking up the boxes. (FYI, we {BitCentury} have already started discussions on how to provide proper packaging, boxes etc for our customers, so we'll do what we can here to try to make sure the units arrive in one piece to you. The good news is that both Tom and I have experience with properly packing and shipping expensive circuit boards from past jobs).
- As for the technical questions the guy answering the phone could not answer them, but we mentioned that others want information too and to please post technical information in the forum. He said they will do, but who knows. They also asked us to email our technical questions to them before (we've done it at least 2 or 3 times) and never get a reply - both in English or Russian.


That's all we have for now folks.
Cheers :-)
Luis
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August 24, 2013, 09:43:50 PM
 #166

Metabank, DDN & MaRSe.

Moscow.

??

Are those chips you guys (DDN?) ordered? I see a living room with food and tea, so I guess this is not metabanks facility.. Cheesy

Hai
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August 24, 2013, 10:06:47 PM
 #167

Metabank, DDN & MaRSe.

Moscow.

??

Are those chips you guys (DDN?) ordered? I see a living room with food and tea, so I guess this is not metabanks facility.. Cheesy

this is russian pizza.
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August 24, 2013, 10:38:10 PM
 #168

Thank you for the continued communication, digitalmagus!  It is much appreciated.

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August 25, 2013, 12:06:15 AM
 #169

The 'pizza box'  pictures DDN posted above are what you would get if you ordered the 3,000 chip reel of Bitfury chips. DDN is not related to BitCentury, but thanks for showing us those pictures DDN. I hadn't seen the reel pictures yet.
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August 28, 2013, 07:13:05 PM
 #170

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=183368.msg3028583#msg3028583
new photos  Wink
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20909492/IMG_0068.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20909492/IMG_0069.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20909492/IMG_0070.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20909492/IMG_0072.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20909492/IMG_0073.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20909492/full_assembly.pdf
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August 28, 2013, 07:30:53 PM
 #171

Nice Smiley

When you have a look inside, it really looks bad-ass-russian. huge capacitors Cheesy. Why are there so many different capacitors on the same spot for different boards? Odd.

It looks like those boards are hard soldered to the "master board". I see a lot of damaged units after (bad-ass-)russian parcel service..

16 boards with 8 chips = 96 chips. Anyone knows the specs at which the chip will/should run according to metabank?

Hai
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August 28, 2013, 08:20:15 PM
 #172


It looks like those boards are hard soldered to the "master board". I see a lot of damaged units after (bad-ass-)russian parcel service..


Yeah Sad

such a box is not able to withstand a travel around the world, those cards with relatively heavy heatsinks will come loose and destroy themselves.

I hope BitCentury ships them disassembled.

spiccioli

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August 28, 2013, 09:22:42 PM
 #173

It would be good to know whether this is metabank's unit or some other project's.

I can only see little fans so this looks like a low-power, low-hash per chip, minimal-cooling system.

 
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August 28, 2013, 09:30:34 PM
 #174

It would be good to know whether this is metabank's unit or some other project's.

I can only see little fans so this looks like a low-power, low-hash per chip, minimal-cooling system.

Bitfury's chips are very low power, those units should be rated at 120 GH/s and should need as little as 100 W.

spiccioli
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August 28, 2013, 09:44:57 PM
 #175

It would be good to know whether this is metabank's unit or some other project's.

I can only see little fans so this looks like a low-power, low-hash per chip, minimal-cooling system.

Bitfury's chips are very low power, those units should be rated at 120 GH/s and should need as little as 100 W.

spiccioli

Yeah, but bitfury's chips can be run at different voltages. There had been talk about running them at a higher voltage to get more performance per chip, more like 2.9GHash/chip and 170W for the device. That's why I'd like to know whether this is really the metabank device or not.

 
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August 28, 2013, 11:44:23 PM
 #176

The last picture of Metabank's proto PCB had white soldermask ... so, who knows.  Whatever it is, I want it Tongue

Quote
It looks like those boards are hard soldered to the "master board".
Looks sockets to me.

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August 29, 2013, 01:05:15 AM
 #177

First,
Thanks to fsb4000 for the post with the links to the pictures, you beat us to it Smiley

16 boards with 8 chips = 96 chips. Anyone knows the specs at which the chip will/should run according to metabank?

I have a feeling the pictures shown are for the "double" machine where they posted about it in the 65nm thread before (sorry, I hadn't mentioned it before). So by double I think they mean 240 GH/s, which kind of makes sense since I am seeing 11 blades in this one, although some of them look different (silver vs beige/black capacitors), so not sure what's going on there - probably this is an early prototype with different cards.

The picture on the Metabank.ru/asic site shows 8 ASIC chips per board, and above that it states they are rated at 3GH/sec each. So I would extrapolate that to mean 8 asics * 3GH/s = 24GH/blade. So you only need 5 blades @ 24 GH each to get 120GH/sec.  So I seriously doubt they will ship a box with around 11 blades for a 120GH product.

They also mention up to 1.6W/GH (not clear at what voltage that is though). So at 120GH, in theory it'd be a max of 192 Watts just for the ASICs alone, not including power required for all the other "doodads" on the PCBs. But should be well under 300W, maybe even less than 250W, but we'll find out I suppose. If the watts per chip is on the low end (0.85W/GH) or aprox 1/2 that, then obviously it'd be closer to 100-125W's.

From our own tests a month ago (see bottom of this blog post: https://bitcentury.io/blog/initial-testing-of-bitfury-asic ) , when we tested above 2.4 GH (last entry at the bottom), the chip temperature hit 80 Celsius and kept rising, and power consumption hit 2.52 Watts/chip but the hashrate was unknown. We didn't wait around to find out the hashing speed because we had limited alpha chips and didn't want to kill any with excess heat (we had no heat sink for these tests); but if we assume 3W per chip for 3GH/s, then with 40 chips (8 chips * 5 boards), we're looking at 120 Watts + power required for all the other PCB components etc. So highly likely under 200W.  This is all educated speculation though ;-)

Yeah, but bitfury's chips can be run at different voltages. There had been talk about running them at a higher voltage to get more performance per chip, more like 2.9GHash/chip and 170W for the device. That's why I'd like to know whether this is really the metabank device or not.

There is a very high chance this is indeed the Metabank device. I base that guess on the look of the blade PCBs. They look nearly identical to the one they posted on their site:
https://metabank.ru/images/asic/asic_board.jpg

You'll note the latest pictures show a green PCB instead of white, but the huge black/beige capacitors are a dead give away.

As for whether the blades are soldered on the master board or sockets, your guess is as good as mine - I can't quite tell from the pictures. My concern looking at this box is that I don't see any screws for opening it up, so hopefully they don't glue it shut, in case we need to open them to properly secure the blades before shipping. Further, I wonder if those two fans in back of picture #73 are going to be providing sufficient airflow to run these things for prolonged periods at room temperature.

Lastly, I'm still not clear on the PC connection type. What we can see in picture #72 on the bottom right is a Raspberri Pi, and those have both USB and Ethernet connections, but not sure which one(s) the software will support. In Picture#73, I don't see any cables coming out of the Ethernet port, so not sure if this unit was even plugged in or what.

The good news is that if these box dimensions are in milimeters as per the PDF file, then the box is aprox 1/2 the size (for the double hashing unit!) or less of an avalon with twice the hashing power and 1/2 or much less the power consumption. Not sure if they just made 1 box for single and double hashing units, or whether they made a smaller box for the single (120GH) hashing units.
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August 29, 2013, 01:11:51 AM
 #178

We will evaluate the best way to secure the blades once we have a box in hand, but I am definitely open to suggestions on how to minimize the blades coming lose. I am quite aware of the avalon shipping horror stories, so, I too would like to avoid those!

Quote
Yeah Sad
such a box is not able to withstand a travel around the world, those cards with relatively heavy heatsinks will come loose and destroy themselves.
I hope BitCentury ships them disassembled.
spiccioli
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August 29, 2013, 01:32:01 AM
 #179

Thanks for the update Luis. I wasn't aware that there was a 'double' unit available, which I agree this looks like.

A friend with an electronics background said that the silver (tantalum) capacitors are a higher-spec than the black and orange ones. Given the reports that metabank were sourcing components from different suppliers I guess the had to grab what they could. He also thought there would be room in the case for 3 80mm fans, though only 2 are visible in the pictures.

Still way too early to pop champagne corks yet but so far, so good.

 
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August 29, 2013, 01:42:34 AM
 #180

Looking at the test data from their previous update, they're getting 22 GH/s per card.  That's 242 GH/s with 11 cards; matches up perfectly with the double unit.  Looks like us single unit guys will luck out.  They'll need to use 6 cards, which is 132 GH/s  Cool

Quote
Lastly, I'm still not clear on the PC connection type. What we can see in picture #72 on the bottom right is a Raspberri Pi, and those have both USB and Ethernet connections, but not sure which one(s) the software will support. In Picture#73, I don't see any cables coming out of the Ethernet port, so not sure if this unit was even plugged in or what.
I can't imagine they're going to connect to a PC.  As far as I'm aware, the only working mining code for Bitfury chips is in a fork of cgminer, built specifically for the RasPi.  I'm sure they're using that, and thus these units are self contained, and will only require ethernet.

Great work, metabank!

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