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Author Topic: A Compromise To Avoid World War 3  (Read 10226 times)
BenRayfield (OP)
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June 27, 2011, 04:09:51 AM
Last edit: June 30, 2011, 06:00:35 AM by BenRayfield
 #1

A Compromise To Avoid World War 3.
Ben F Rayfield, 2011.
All my writing, here or anywhere else, permission granted to copy, since redundant is harder to censor.

This is about slavery to money and a way to change that by open-sourcing the economy using a common identity-verifying system and leaving other functions to the open-source code, for example, a branch of Bitcoin which has an extra key held by authorities.

[EDIT: Bitcoin proved that the open-source movement is strong and advanced enough to build economies, and now that we can do that for ourselves and let money advance into systems where its more than just a number, forcing us to continue using dollars (or other centralized currency) would be slavery. Extremely more businesses would accept an identity-proving system than an anonymous system, but we should use both for the inevitable time when authorities abuse such identity power and need to be pushed back into obedience to democracy, and on top of that we can create an open-source competition where the best economies get the most invested in them, so economies are created that influence society toward whatever the majority of people want it to become.]

[EDIT: I did not mean to imply this is about what terrorists want, since this is good for everyone, and it ends a lot of conflicts too] The difference between a soldier and a terrorist is the terrorist knows what he fights for while the soldier does what he's told. Its war either way, and its often good to compromise to avoid war. You can have economic war, political war, or violent war, but usually its a combination. I'm going to make a proposal that reduces all 3 and leads to a more cooperative society, one where everyone tries to help everyone else because the structure of society rewards such behavior.

What I write here is going to be more about USA than other countries. I'm trying to write about the whole Earth, but nobody has the whole picture, so we need to start talking at that level. First I'll describe some important and relevant events in history, and then extrapolate where that leads, and what we can do as a compromise between authorities and terrorists to avoid World War 3. I don't serve authorities or terrorists more than anyone else. I serve the Human species and all life forms, so don't accuse me of making the threats I'm describing. Somebody has to say this, and if you want to avoid World War 3, you'll listen. Conflicts are esclating exponentially, and we don't have much time left.

I'm ordering the historical events by how they relate to eachother, not by time...

Then I'll describe where it leads and a Bitcoin-like identity-verified double-key system to open-source the economy, something that will outperform the central bank system in a fair fight, a free market where the best economy wins. Bitcoin is already a many million dollar economy and is up and running now, so don't think this is hard to do. We can start from Bitcoin's open-source code or create new software. We think computers are great at numbers and in our banks and economies we don't see why people should be involved in such calculations, so we have minimal overhead. This will be a system that anyone can build on with open-source code, as long as they use the same identity-verifying system.

We will design economies, in an open-source way, that influence society toward whatever we want it to become, and we will vote on these economies the same way politicians are elected today, vote with your money, so the best economies get the most people using them and the most invested in them. If people accept it as money, it is money, and when more people use it, it becomes more valuable. Bitcoin did it, and we can do it again for each new economy we design. Economic equations will evolve and compete the same way products evolve and compete today, and we will use that to organize society however we prefer, to make money flow to those who really deserve it in the democratic opinion of everyone who uses these new money systems. Many think its not democratic to vote with money, but that's the only way it can happen these days, and it will be more democratic to design such systems so money tends to flow toward everyone more equally than it does today. I'm not proposing any changes to election systems. I'm recognizing that money controls elections more than voting does, and our real master is the central banking system. We are all slaves to money, and its time to free the slaves again.

***History***

Thousands of businesses cooperate to create an internet with far more bandwidth and technology than the existing internet, called Internet 2 ( http://internet2.edu ), and for it to be only for businesses and not for normal people, and their plan is to replace the existing internet with one controlled only by businesses, where they have no obligation to obey "net neutrality laws".

Corporations are masters of governments. For example, in California USA, if I want to buy electric power, I am forced to buy it from Pacific Gas And Electric, and part of their budget goes toward creating laws such as for regulating the "standby mode" on electronics. They think it wastes electricity and electronics should have to turn off completely. What started as a way for government to save money by deferring electricity generation to a business, has become a tax on funding the creation of electricity related laws, by a private business. Where do I go to vote against Pacific Gas And Electric if I don't like the laws they put money into creating, my money which I am forced to pay for electricity? Corporations are a part of government that has no obligations of democracy.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. After reserching many charities, http://givewell.org ( http://wikipedia.org/wiki/GiveWell ) calculated that, based on supply and demand for Human life, the cheapest Human lives are worth 1000 US Dollars each. That's how much it costs to save a Human life (in the most efficient charities), and people aren't willing to pay it until the price comes down. Based on this calculation, the value of the buildings destroyed in the 9/11/01 bombings was more than the value of the 3000 people who died, since the people were worth 3,000,000 US Dollars at 1000 Dollars each. If you disagree, put your money where your mouth is and save a life. The point is people don't care much if other people die.

George Bush became president of USA. Then his son became president. George Bush THE SECOND. What is the chance that a man and then his son would be president if USA was a real democracy? Almost none. The system is powered by money, and the central bank system owns most of that money. To restore democracy, we must fix the money system so it tends to flow toward people based on what they do for society.

Guantanamo Bay is a prison USA created outside of USA for the purpose of not being subject to the laws of USA in that prison, so they can torture people for information. George W Bush had it created. Obama did not shut it down. [EDIT: On Obama page on Wikipedia it says: "In his first few days in office Obama issued executive orders and presidential memoranda directing the U.S. military to develop plans to withdraw troops from Iraq.[110] He ordered the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp "as soon as practicable and no later than" January 2010,[111] but during his first two years in office he has been unable to persuade Congress to appropriate funds required to accomplish the shutdown.", so if that's true then its another example of the central banks being masters of government.]

Ignorance Of The Law Is No Excuse. Police in USA often say that. Ok, lets see how that applies to USA's Congress who admit that they don't read proposed laws before voting on if they become laws or not. That's why the Read The Bills Act was rejected. Laws in USA are created so quickly that is it impossible for any one person to read them, even if they read laws all day everyday. You can't know if a law applies to you if you don't read it because the system is not advanced enough to search for an abstract idea, while some parts can be searched by words. The system is overclocked, running out of control, and they don't know how to fix it. Something big could easily break, and the gears of society would come to a halt, unless we change the basic way things work.

As most people laugh at Ray Kurzweil's history-based calculations that technology will continue to advanced exponentially and the future will be here much sooner than most people expect, those people demonstrate their ignorance by not knowing that today for 300 US Dollars they can buy a hat (Emotiv Epoc) which reads some of their thoughts, including emotions and thinking about moving and turning, which allows them to play video games by thinking. This kind of technology isn't far from what's needed to network our minds together into a bigger mind which would be able to control us the same way we control Monkeys, but this mind would also be us.

The Zeitgeist movement gains popularity quickly. One of their best videos is this version of "Zeitgeist Addendum" which you can watch for free at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
From their website http://thezeitgeistmovement.com (but they are not as centralized as it appears),
QUOTE:
The Movement's principle focus includes the recognition that the majority of the social problems which plague the human species at this time are not the sole result of some institutional corruption, scarcity, a political policy, a flaw of "human nature" or other commonly held assumptions of causality in the activist community. Rather, The Movement recognizes that issues such as poverty, corruption, collapse, homelessness, war, starvation and the like appear to be "Symptoms" born out of an outdated social structure.

While intermediate Reform steps and temporal Community Support are of interest to The Movement, the defining goal here is the installation of a new socioeconomic model based upon technically responsible Resource Management, Allocation and Distribution through what would be considered The Scientific Method of reasoning problems and finding optimized solutions.

This "Resource-Based Economic Model” is about taking a direct technical approach to social management as opposed to a Monetary or even Political one. It is about updating the workings of society to the most advanced and proven methods Science has to offer, leaving behind the damaging consequences and limiting inhibitions which are generated by our current system of monetary exchange, profits, corporations and other structural and motivational components.
END QUOTE.

The Open Source movement (software which everyone has the right to use, copy, modify, and distribute with much less legal restrictions and usually for free) is as strong as the businesses who create software. Open Source tends to be peer-reviewed more, instead of hiding its flaws inside of .exe files without the text files which they were generated from. Open source programmers have learned to work together to advance their common goals. Businesses, being motivated more by profit than by good products, only let others build on their work as long as the business stays in control, able to pull the plug on the whole project if they don't like where it goes. Open source gives every user the legal right to take the project wherever they want, and the creator has no legal right to stop them or change the contract later. The contract normally says things like give credit where its due, don't connect this to proprietary (not open source) systems, or some give permission to do anything at all as long as the author's name stays on it. The majority of Open Source software is at http://sourceforge.net and the website for SourceForge is one of the open source softwares. If businesses can't learn to work together more than is profitable, they will not be able to compete. People would not use Bitcoin if it was not open source.

I heard that around the time central banking was created in USA, some president tried to shut it down soon after it started. This is something I'll need to research later and update this writing, or you could research it and respond. This is how a decentralized society works.

Military Industrial Complex:
"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."
--Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961, former president of USA.
His predictions are now reality.

In the year 1999, Napster became popular, allowing anyone with internet access to share music files, if they had legal rights to those files or not. This was followed by many decentralized and sometimes anonymous networks, and eventually led to the combination of Bitcoin and Tor networks to move large amounts of money from anywhere to anywhere anonymously. Since it started, governments have been fighting decentralized networks, but legitimate uses of these networks has slowed their attacks. As part of these attacks, Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have failed to upgrade their systems to IPv6 even though it has been available for over 10 years, and without it the workaround is Network Address Translation (NAT) which creates severe problems for decentralized networks. Specificly, most people are behind NAT addresses, and communications go out but they don't come in unless they are an immediate response to a communication that just went out. When 2 computers both have NAT addresses, neither can send the first communication to the other, so they can't communicate at all without going through a non-NAT address, also known as a server. Wasn't the internet supposed to be a network of computers where everyone has equal ability to network to everyone else?

The Pirate Party advocates getting rid of intellectual property laws, like patents and copyrights, so everyone benefits from the many things which already exist and has the freedom to build more things without making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

The Patriot Acts are created in USA which give government legal ability to do almost anything they want, including kill suspected terrorists on sight without a trial, and spy on financial records through automated systems on a large scale.

"My Administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government. We will work together to ensure the public trust and establish a system of transparency, public participation, and collaboration. Openness will strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness in government."
--Barack Obama, president of USA, 2009, http://whitehouse.gov/open
Looks like Obama may want to help with this. What's more open than open-sourcing the economy based on a common identity-verifying system?

The "Anonymous" group hacks at computers of Federal Reserve.

Wikileaks distributes secret government documents, which motivated many people to make changes in their governments.

Through the internet, revolutions are organized, like happened in Egypt to replace its government.

Wikileaks hacks at various financial computer systems as a response to such systems freezing the money accounts of Wikileaks.

News, radio, and some of the most popular forms of communication are censored. You don't see dead soldiers brought home from war, for example, on the news. They don't want people to pay attention to the wars in that way.

A "kill switch" is installed into large parts of the internet, so authorities can control the internet. If your website does not obey their rules, contain only approved content, then your website will not be accessible to others.

Some groups threaten others for displaying pictures of Mohammed, which their religion commands against. Talk starts about further censoring communications.

Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves, but I've heard he was forced into it. Compare that to everyone being a slave to money and now through cryptocurrencies we can free the slaves again.

Bitcoin is created as a response to the financial system and forcing of identity on transactions of money. Combined with the Tor network, it can be used anonymously to move millions of dollars from anywhere to anywhere. Bitcoin devalued the Dollar by many millions and moved that value into Bitcoins, but competing currencies have been doing that for hundreds of years.

Currently there are no tax laws about Bitcoins or World Of Warcraft Gold, since they're just numbers in a computer that people trade. Through the bridge of cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, governments will be tempted to tax game money, and if they do it will lead to destroying themselves with complexity. World Of Warcraft Gold is a real currency, like Bitcoin, just implemented a different way and connected to a game before it became a real currency. Want to buy some? http://warcraftgoldstore.com This currency is normally used to buy things in the World Of Warcraft online game, but since it can be exchanged both directions with dollars, it should be subject to the same laws as Bitcoin, and the last I heard, if you get paid in Bitcoins you are supposed to report it on your taxes (some people say, but its debated). Can anyone give me a good legal reason why Bitcoin and World Of Warcraft Gold should be taxed differently? If not, the next purchase of armor or a flying dragon to ride on, should be reported on your taxes. When the auditor asks, tell him "Yes, I bought a flying dragon for xx World Of Warcraft Gold, but I didn't get a receipt." There is a contradiction here. Either we are going to have to start paying sales tax for buying an extra life in a game in a simulated economy with game money, and non-player-characters taxed for spending that same game money, or Bitcoin doesn't get taxed. Which is it? In World Of Warcraft, Blizzard Entertainment is God, and nobody would bat an eye if one of their characters walked on simulated water. If employment laws merge between virtual worlds and the real world, bad things will happen, and the paradoxes will expand without limit. Do your lawyers dare tread in the World Of Warcraft? I really hope so, because one of those non-player-characters was racially discriminating in who he hired for his simulated dragon store. That racist a-hole said he wouldn't hire my character because he had green skin, a hump back, and large claws, which is typical of my simulated species. My whole simulated life, I've had to deal with discrimination against Orcs, and this is the last straw. I am suing for the lost potential World Of Warcraft Gold, in US Dollars please. Second Life is a more advanced game where such employment laws would be more likely to apply, especially in future versions.


***End of history events, ordered by how they relate to eachother instead of time.***


***How does all that fit together?***

Its a battle between centralized control and decentralized organization of society, which is fought politically, economically, and sometimes violently. As long as Humans have existed, there have been hierarchies of control: countries, presidents, kings, cities, department of motor vehicles, money systems which you're not allowed to compete with, etc. As technology advanced, organizing society in decentralized ways became possible. The authorities represent centralization of power. They work against decentralization because it reduces their power. As they recently learned from Bitcoin and various attacks through the internet, they are not as powerful as they thought, and as technology continues to advance, they will continue to lose power to decentralized ways to organize society. They could shut down Bitcoin, but they couldn't stop 10 more advanced variations of it from being created.

There are a few random elements also. In reaction to threats if pictures of Mohammed are displayed, there was an "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Draw_Mohammed_Day and an episode of "South Park" in which Mohammed appeared delivering a pizza, as if it wasn't anything out of the ordinary. We can solve the problems between centralization and decentralization, but these more random things (people don't want you to do x for religious reasons, so others do x) may never be solved. The best we can do is try to avoid escalating such conflicts, like by not making demands that others obey our religion and not reacting to such demands. If people didn't think that USA's government may outlaw pictures of Mohammed, then those reactions to it would have been much smaller. These many random elements make a complete consistent solution impossible, but we can build a society much better than what we have now.

Authorities reduce freedom and increase military spending and spying. Terrorists become more angry and recruit more members. Both use more advanced technology and demand the other change. This escalation of conflicts is not going to stop on its own, and nobody will like what it leads to.

***That's history. What's next?***

If they make Bitcoin illegal, terrorists will attack, maybe not right away, and we don't know any details, but making Bitcoin illegal would be viewed as a severe attack on the decentralization of society. Does that make you want to make it illegal right away? I expect it does, because we are a very confrontaional species. But this time, lets wait and let the identity-verified system compete with Bitcoin and outperform it because businesses accept it into their infrastructure more than they accept Bitcoin.

Through the internet, many people have realized how the world really works, and we want our fair part of the power. We want a real democracy, and since money is power, we want the central banking dictatorship demoted to a free market where anyone can coin their own money if others agree to accept it as money, the same as currencies have been competing for hundreds of years. Because of new technology like Bitcoin (and its many million dollar economy), new currencies can be designed to do things that old currencies can not, so money does not have to be just a number anymore. Near the end of this writing, I will describe a system I want to create where money is more than a number, as an example.

None of us alive today chose the central banking system. We were born into it, like slaves were born into the system of slavery. Everyone is a slave to money. People say that like its a joke, but there is some truth to it. Anyone or anything that isn't followed by choice does not deserve to be followed. Its time to free the slaves again, this time from the central banking system, and allow us to design our own systems which people may choose to follow.

There are side-effects of these systems, and we must deal with that. The ends do not justify the means. The ends plus the side-effects justify the means. If Bitcoin does something bad to the world, we must do something about it instead of just continuing to use Bitcoin. That is the only way we have the right to design our own systems. For example, if the central banking system leads to the military-industrial-complex (nuclear weapons are created for profit more than for defense, for example), they should have to do something to fix that problem or another problem of equal destructiveness.

Below I will propose a new open-source money system that I think the terrorists and authorities can agree on, a compromise to avoid World War 3. I'll quote myself from the first paragraph: "The difference between a soldier and a terrorist is the terrorist knows what he fights for while the soldier does what he's told. Its war either way, and its often good to compromise to avoid war. You can have economic war, political war, or violent war, but usually its a combination. I'm going to make a proposal that reduces all 3 and leads to a more cooperative society, one where everyone tries to help everyone else because the structure of society rewards such behavior."

We don't need to change any laws or make laws against the central banking system. We just need protection from the central banking system who has extreme motivation to pay to create laws against our new money systems. We intend to create fair and balanced money systems, where there are no fees paid to us, and to defeat the central banking system in a fair fight, in a free market where the best currency system wins. It would be a "conflict of interest" for the central banking system, who is our competition, to make or pay to make laws that apply to our cryptocurrency money systems. Our money systems appear to fit the definition of a charity, providing the service of adding and subtracting numbers and whatever else our money will be designed to do. We can compete with huge central banking organizations because we understand that computers are good at numbers and we don't see why people should be involved in such calculating of numbers, open-source programmers work for free, computing power is entirely the responsibility of our users, so we have no overhead, and we're passing the entire savings to our users. Its a bank and a charity, so there is no way a central banking system could defeat it in a free market.

If you agree with what I'm writing and want such changes to happen, send a link to your friends.

***Details of the system***

To satisfy the authority's requirements, modify Bitcoin to be a double key system, one key held by authorities and one key held by each person, both keys needed to access any money. The authority's keys can freeze accounts and identify who did a transaction, or even freeze an account before a transaction since all transactions are sent to authorities for approval. The other key prevents authorities from using the money without the permission of its owner, like is done in a Fractional Reserve system. This open-source system will be flexible enough to build a Fractional Reserve system on top of, but it will not do that by default. Except for the identity-verifying system, anyone can extend it with open-source code.

There will be an authority-controlled identity system that holds the private-key of each person to identify that person. The modified Bitcoin will send a block of data to the authority's system, which will digitally-sign the block and send the signature back to the modified Bitcoin, which will assemble things in the normal way into a new block for the network. It will have to run on its own network independent of the existing Bitcoin network.

Any Bitcoin-like system which uses the common identity system would be accepted as a valid economic system which has whatever value people put on it by choosing to use it as money. It will be a free market competition between different equations and behaviors of economies. The best economy equations get more people to use them, more invested in them. If Fractional Reserve systems do not compete well with an identity-verified Bitcoin system, then Fractional Reserve would lose value of their money to that economy. The best systems win. Its a fair fight in a free market. In any free market, there will be a variety of products, not a monopoly, because a monopoly acts unfairly and the free market responds by creating similar products with fair rules. In this case, the equations and behaviors of an economy will evolve and compete the same way products evolve and compete today. Farther below I will explain an economy I want to build where money is not just a number.

It can not be used anonymously.

Accounts can be frozen by authorities at any time and is guaranteed to offer a freeze before each transaction is approved.

The integrity of the whole network is protected by digital-signatures of all people and authorities involved.

All data is public, but only authorities need to know which public-key is owned by which person, so its anonymous for everyone except authorities who observe them.

"Authorities" can mean anything, depending on which system holds those private-keys and does digital-signatures. It could be an OpenID system, or a USB device sold by governments, for example.

Because no new block can be accepted to the network on a large scale without being approved and digitally-signed by authorities (or a USB device they sell for such a purpose), authorities will have complete ability to stop any transaction in the network before it happens and to identify the people involved in any transaction by looking at the publicly available history of the network (which is the network itself because it grows new blocks from old blocks).

See the design document of Bitcoin for details, but Bitcoin is not the only system this would work for. "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System" http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Why would the underground accept such a system that sounds almost as bad as centrally controlled banks? Because businesses will accept it as part of their infrastructure competing with dollars, and because if authorities abuse their power we can build more anonymous money system like Bitcoin (or continue using Bitcoin) instead of using the identity-based systems. Every government or global organization needs a system of "checks and balances", and the constant threat that we'll build and use anonymous systems if power is abused serves that purpose. Regulate fairly and reasonably or don't regulate at all, and you know that's true because Bitcoin was created as a response to such unreasonable regulation. We don't have to overthrow any government to obsolete governments. We can build replacements that organize society in decentralized ways. Authorities can choose to work with us or become obsolete. People would simply stop going to work in government buildings because our systems work better. What if they had a war and nobody came?

***Technical details***

2 private keys. Authorities have 1. Each person has the other. 2 public keys, go in the blocks, same as Bitcoin already does for 1 key pair.

Its really simple. When digitally-signing a new block, it needs to be signed by both private keys, and both those signatures go in the blocks. The block has to be sent to authorities to be signed, since they're not giving out their key, and the result sent to the Bitcoin-like program, which combines the keys, signatures, and everything else the normal way Bitcoin does it.

There is also a third key pair held by the authorities which is used to sign each of many public keys of the authorities. Based on that, each node in the network will verify that identity signatures really are from authorities instead of made up the same way personal key pairs are.

***End Technical details***

***Start example economy***

Below I'll describe an example of a system where money is more than a number, which could be built on top of the identity-verifying system described above.

This system is called Free Speech Just Pay Shipping (FSJPS), and when I decide on the details I will put up a centralized prototype at http://FreeSpeechJustPayShipping.com before creating the decentralized version.

Its a little like a stock market. Each money has an amount and some text, like you have 500 amount of "GOOG" which is Google stock in the "Nasdaq Stock Exchange" economy. There will be different amounts and texts in the "New York Stock Exchange" economy, for example. There are many economies that compete with eachother.

In FSJPS, the text can be anything you want and can be as long as you're willing to pay for. Longer text uses more space and bandwidth in the network, so whatever the free market decides will be charged for such bandwidth, paid directly to the computers who provide the bandwidth and storage. It will be a very small cost. For example, Bitcoin recommends a 0.01 Bitcoin "transaction fee", but I'm thinking more of a fee that continues to be charged as the network continues to store and broadcast your data, still a very small fee paid to the network. Because of that, the economy equations can be defined independent of the infrastructure costs. The infrastructure costs are amortized as a separate fee paid to the network based on free market choice of who your software pays to store and broadcast your data, subject to the network verifying such storing and broadcasting is being done correctly, which can be done because it will be stored extremely redundantly as it is in Bitcoin.

FSJPS is a simplified model of intellectual property laws applied at very small scales. Each text is simultaneously like a patent and a product. If you are the majority owner of "vote democrat" (which means you own more stock in "vote democrat" than anyone else), then your vote on the product price of "vote democrat" will be the only one that matters. Its done by median-vote. When you buy some stock, you set the vote for its product price. The actual product price of a text (like "vote democrat") is the median-vote of all stock owners weighted by how much of the stock they own. To change your product price vote of stock you own, sell it to yourself with a different product price specified, a transaction which doesn't change your amount of stock but will cost you for amortized_infrastructure_cost.

What does "product price" do? If the product price of "vote democrat" is 0.72, then when someone buys stock in "dont vote democrat" or "vote democrat because god said so", the price they pay includes 0.72 in the calculation.

Its not a linear calculation. Its a sum-of-squares(of prefix string length) average calculation.

In "vote democrat", start at each letter/symbol/space (which we will call "char" below), and do a weighted-average of the prices of each of those texts, which we will call "substrings" below.

The substrings are:
"vote democrat"
"ote democrat"
"te democrat"
"e democrat"
" democrat"
"democrat"
"emocrat"
"mocrat"
"ocrat"
"crat"
"rat"
"at"
"t"

For each substring, you have to buy permission to use it. You can buy such permission from any prefix of the substring. For example, if you need permission for "rat", you could buy it from "" or from "r" or from "ra" or from "rat". The software will be designed to look at the free market for the lowest price, but it can never be sure something is the lowest price because the network is decentralized and prices fluctuate nonlocally based on continuous median-votes for each text.

To use the system, you could look through the texts and amounts others have put into the network, and use it like a text forum or stock market, or you could simply type any text you want and an amount and it will tell you how much it would cost to add that to the network, and you would click a button to pay to do it.

The system would be a stock market of ideas. Since its priced in a free market of substrings and branched in a tree of text with similar texts as near branches, it will be organized naturally as an associative search engine. By buying stock in a certain text, you're paying the world to make that text happen statistically more on average, or at least to get people to pay attention to the text (advertising) and related texts. FSJPS will be a system where you can pay money into "legalize drugs" (for example) and if you pay enough money, it will really happen. Its a democracy algorithm. I can't be sure it would work that way, but intuitively it makes sense since its connected as an associative search engine and the world does what money is put into, and people will see theres money put into that text and related texts and will be affected when they buy texts which contain that text or parts of that text. You could buy stock in "legalize drugs" or "it would be stupid for any drug to be legal", and those would be related by the substrings of "legal" and "drug" and a few smaller texts. Buy stock in whatever text you want to say or based on your predictions of the free market.

You can also sell your stock in any string for any price you offer and someone is willing to pay. I haven't decided if it would include the ability to remove text from the network and convert it directly back to units of "" (the root currency, similar to Bitcoin).

"vote democrat" (length 13) has a unit product price (permission) of 0.91, but "vote dem" (length Cool has a price of 0.88 so that was used for permission instead.
"ote democrat" found only expensive permissions so bought from "" (the common currency at the root of the text tree) at a unit price of 1.0.
...
"t" has a unit product price (permission) of 0.98, which is less than the 1.0 for "" so take the 0.98.

You can always find a price for any text for at most 1.0 plus the infrastructure cost.

To calculate the price paid for buying stock in "vote democrat"...
unit cost of "vote democrat" =
(8*8*0.88 + 1*1*1.0 + ... + 1*1*0.98)/(8*8 + 1*1 + ... + 1*1)

Longer texts will tend to cost less than shorter texts, because if text x is used to satisfy a permission requirement, then any prefix of x could be used to satisfy that same requirement, even if that prefix is a text of length 0 ("", the common currency of the whole tree of text). The price for "" is fixed at 1.0.

Since "" is length 0, it has to be calculated as length 1.

The cost of adding 500.37 units of "vote democrat" to the network is unit_cost_of_vote_democrat*500.37 + amortized_infrastructure_cost*13, but I haven't defined amortized_infrastructure_cost yet, and I'm still thinking about how to do that part. Read above where I wrote "amortized" for details.

FSJPS would be a mix of free market and ownership of text, where you pay for permission to add new text to the network, and each text has a value that fluctuates like a stock price. Short texts are conservative investments. Longer texts are high risk and high profit/loss.

As a telekinetic (at rare times) person and mad-scientist, I expect FSJPS to have strong metaphysical effects on reality similar to how the the quantum double-slit experiment works (see the "nonlocal" pricing described above), by using wave-interference between the various strings and substrings in the associative network, interacting with peoples' brainwaves as they predict and react to the FSJPS system, to put the force of the economy (which is really powerful) toward expanding consciousness, but such speculation is not important to the system working. As a demonstration of telekinetic skill, the "psi wheel in a clear closed box 2" video on youtube. Its my example economy. I can make it do whatever I want. You can build your own economy or use an existing one if you don't like it, since its open-source (and using the same identity-verification system). I think, in some ways, we're all gods, and I want to amplify that using math. Dollars used to be backed by gold. My example economy would be backed by consciousness. Please do not regulate this part of my religion, which most parts I have thought of on my own. If you don't think it would work, that's your right to think whatever you want, but you don't have the right to stop me from trying.

Its a tree of text where the tree can branch at any char. It can be used as a text forum that way, where you can reply to any text by adding a new branch. A post in a thread would be a text starting with the title and ending with the post text. A reply to that post would be that same text followed by the text of the reply. Text can be added as a branch anywhere in the tree of text, and it doesn't have to be interpreted as a text forum.

The root of the tree of text is a text of length 0, and it works the same as Bitcoin works today, as a simple number of money, but all other parts of the tree of text are parts of an economy where money is more than a number.

FSJPS (Free Speech Just Pay Shipping) is an example of an economy where money is more than a number, a system which could be built on top of the identity-verifying system I proposed above, and compete with other open-source economies designed by many other people.

FSJPS would be an implementation of "That which can be destroyed by the truth should be", since the force of money is put on text which resists censoring (you would have to destroy the money to censor the text), and what people tend to agree on is stronger in the network, and any corruption in government (for example) that text exposes will be fixed in proportion to how much money is put on the text, since people see it in that proportion.

***End example economy***

***Conclusion***

We should not be slaves to money. We should be allowed to design our own money-like systems and get people to agree to use them as money, so society can choose how to reorganize itself. Until recent years, this was not possible so we were not really "slaves to money" (or not as much), but now that it can be done and is reliable and secure and satisfies the same legal requirements as centralized banking systems (but only the parts relevant to cryptocurrencies), it would be slavery to force us to continue using that ancient system.

Its not illegal to build what I described (except in China and probably a few others), but I expect the centralized banking system will try to change that, and we ask for protection from them using governments against us. It is our plan to defeat them in a free market where the best economy wins, so they have extreme motivation to fight dirty as they normally do, paying off politicians to make laws. Money is power, and they have most of it, a problem we can easily solve in a fair competition.

--Ben F Rayfield, 2011.

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June 27, 2011, 04:22:55 AM
 #2

Time Cube 2.0
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June 27, 2011, 11:53:25 AM
 #3

A compromise between right and wrong is still wrong. A compromise between good and bad is still bad.
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June 27, 2011, 12:25:40 PM
 #4

Well Done!
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June 27, 2011, 01:35:06 PM
 #5

so the upshot is to give governments the right to veto every financial transaction by every person on earth?  because if we don't they'll take offense?

and we aren't allowed cryptography which governments don't have backdoors to?

really?

you're not even wrong.
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June 27, 2011, 03:19:14 PM
 #6

damn, did you type all that?



.
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June 27, 2011, 04:53:35 PM
 #7

Does not compute

Hippy Anarchy
*shrug*
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June 28, 2011, 01:42:00 AM
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Quote
A compromise between right and wrong is still wrong. A compromise between good and bad is still bad.

Then say it this way: Its what many people would want if they thought about it long enough to understand what it leads to, and some of those people are authorities and terrorists, and because of that they could stop some of their wars.

Quote
so the upshot is to give governments the right to veto every financial transaction by every person on earth?  because if we don't they'll take offense?

and we aren't allowed cryptography which governments don't have backdoors to?

No backdoors. Authority has one key. You have the other. They can't touch the money without your key, and you never give it to anyone. But you can't touch it without their key.

They can veto transactions only as long as people choose to use such an identity-based system, which would not be long if they abuse their power, since Bitcoin would still be around to fall back to if that happened. When they regulate reasonably, we use the identity based system which will have more access to businesses and other systems. When things need to be changed again, fall back to Bitcoin until they change.


In case you all haven't noticed, they are getting ready to shut down the internet, replace it with one more like a cell phone operating system which only businesses can control, turn the world into one big police state, and control everything through a global dictatorship. Then what will you do with Bitcoin? Nothing, because it will have no internet to run on.

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June 28, 2011, 03:43:02 AM
 #9

When they regulate reasonably...

Won't happen.
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June 28, 2011, 03:53:10 AM
 #10

come on.... WWIII = population control

 BRING IT ON!

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June 28, 2011, 03:22:01 PM
Last edit: June 28, 2011, 03:40:25 PM by BenRayfield
 #11

I said...
Quote
Thousands of businesses cooperate to create an internet with far more bandwidth and technology than the existing internet, called Internet 2 ( http://internet2.edu ), and for it to be only for businesses and not for normal people, and their plan is to replace the existing internet with one controlled only by businesses, where they have no obligation to obey "net neutrality laws".

That alone would be enough to shut down Bitcoin and start World War 3.

Quote
Quote
When they regulate reasonably...

Won't happen.

It will happen when they lose enough power to decentralization (to everyone in a democratic way) they they have no choice, to regulate reasonably or lose all ability to regulate, and that can done violently (which is whats going to happen if we do nothing) or economically (which I recommend).

Or maybe I have to build this thing, which requires the cooperation of businesses who are probably against the idea until it is proven to work (since they usually don't think ahead as far as paradigm shifts), before the underground will get behind the idea. Are you really going to let businesses beat you to a paradigm shift?

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June 28, 2011, 03:25:23 PM
 #12

I said...
Quote
Thousands of businesses cooperate to create an internet with far more bandwidth and technology than the existing internet, called Internet 2 ( http://internet2.edu ), and for it to be only for businesses and not for normal people, and their plan is to replace the existing internet with one controlled only by businesses, where they have no obligation to obey "net neutrality laws".

Quote
Quote
When they regulate reasonably...

Won't happen.

It will happen when they lose enough power to decentralization (to everyone in a democratic way) they they have no choice, to regulate reasonably or lose all ability to regulate, and that can done violently (which is whats going to happen if we do nothing) or economically (which I recommend).

It's all been done violently. How do you think they fund themselves? We're under a odious debt. Once they can't even fund their force, they're gone. Nothing separates government than any other business. It needs income to survive. Bitcoin deprives of them it and rightfully so.
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June 28, 2011, 03:44:12 PM
 #13

Quote
It's all been done violently. How do you think they fund themselves? We're under a odious debt. Once they can't even fund their force, they're gone. Nothing separates government than any other business. It needs income to survive. Bitcoin deprives of them it and rightfully so.

Its going to get a lot more violent if we do nothing, and its going to be in your face instead of on the news.

I agree its right that Bitcoin takes the dictator central bank system's value of money, but they're going to fight it much stronger when it starts taking more money, and then we'll need the support of a lot of businesses, and for that we need an identity system to stop governments from attacking those businesses for using Bitcoin (or a variation with identity proven). It only works when it gets big if it has identity verification. We need anonymous and identity verification in 2 different systems.

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June 28, 2011, 03:46:06 PM
 #14

come on.... WWIII = population control

 BRING IT ON!

Should start by exterminating your ass first
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June 28, 2011, 09:47:56 PM
 #15

When they regulate reasonably...

Won't happen.

true story

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June 28, 2011, 10:44:35 PM
Last edit: June 28, 2011, 10:54:46 PM by Litt
 #16

Quote
....To satisfy the authority's requirements, modify Bitcoin to be a double key system, one key held by authorities and one key held by each person, both keys needed to access any money. The authority's keys can freeze accounts and identify who did a transaction, or even freeze an account before a transaction since all transactions are sent to authorities for approval. The other key prevents authorities from using the money without the permission of its owner, like is done in a Fractional Reserve system....


I would never support such system that will give the power back in the hands covered in blood. The above statement completely undermines the true worthiness of the new technological advance that is Bitcoin. If you say such things you do not yet understand what Bitcoin is all about imo. Time to fiddle around making minor changes hoping for the best is over now. We've given the "authorities" plenty of time and opportunities. Now we finally have something in our hands that we can use "OURSELVES" to take control of our own future economic destiny. If you think I will give that up for anything less than my rights to private property without the "authorities" shaving the value from it each time they feel like it, you will be sorry to make such assumptions on my behalf if it ever came true.

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June 28, 2011, 10:57:42 PM
 #17

...
The difference between a soldier and a terrorist is the terrorist knows what he fights for while the soldier does what he's told. ...

...

I'm pretty sure  plenty of terrorists are just as, if not even more, mislead about the true reasons they are being sent to fight than soldiers of big countries like the US.

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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June 28, 2011, 11:14:29 PM
 #18

...
The difference between a soldier and a terrorist is the terrorist knows what he fights for while the soldier does what he's told. ...

...

I'm pretty sure  plenty of terrorists are just as, if not even more, mislead about the true reasons they are being sent to fight than soldiers of big countries like the US.

I tend to agree with what you are saying, but I do want to make a comparison.

Soldiers are given very direct incentive to obey order which is prosecution of law which is quite different from terrorist being politically motivated. The soldiers are contractually obligated to obey even before having any opinion of his or her own about any subject matter. Where and what is the incentive of this said terrorist to take action? Being mislead and misinformed is one thing, but to act forcibly for/against ideal is completely different than being exposed to propaganda.
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June 28, 2011, 11:25:37 PM
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Even though both conditions are less than ideal, having only those two choices, i much rather have a chance of forming an opinion on the reasons i'm being sent to fight or at the very least know i'm not being told the whole truth than being tricked into fighting with lies.

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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June 29, 2011, 03:05:53 AM
Last edit: June 29, 2011, 06:19:10 AM by BenRayfield
 #20

Quote
....To satisfy the authority's requirements, modify Bitcoin to be a double key system, one key held by authorities and one key held by each person, both keys needed to access any money. The authority's keys can freeze accounts and identify who did a transaction, or even freeze an account before a transaction since all transactions are sent to authorities for approval. The other key prevents authorities from using the money without the permission of its owner, like is done in a Fractional Reserve system....

I would never support such system that will give the power back in the hands covered in blood. The above statement completely undermines the true worthiness of the new technological advance that is Bitcoin. If you say such things you do not yet understand what Bitcoin is all about imo. Time to fiddle around making minor changes hoping for the best is over now. We've given the "authorities" plenty of time and opportunities. Now we finally have something in our hands that we can use "OURSELVES" to take control of our own future economic destiny. If you think I will give that up for anything less than my rights to private property without the "authorities" shaving the value from it each time they feel like it, you will be sorry to make such assumptions on my behalf if it ever came true.

Many people who use Bitcoin trade BTC for their local centralized currency. I'm proposing a better centralized currency (centralized in the identification, decentralized in the personal keys and network) to use instead of that. Don't use Bitcoin less. Use dollars (or other centralized currency) less. That is what the identity system is for. What I proposed reduces the power of authorities more than using Bitcoin alone.

I did not start with the idea of "fiddle around making minor changes" in Bitcoin nor do I intend to make minor changes to governments. I will accept nothing less than complete control by all 7 billion people in a democratic way. I just have different plans of how to get there. On the software side, I decided what was best to do and it happened to be a minor change. I'm willing to build a completely new system if I later start to think that would work better, and I may do that anyways because a 10 megabyte exe file is much too big for what Bitcoin does.

I am not asking you to give up anything. I hope Bitcoin replaces dollars (and other centralized currencies), but until then, what I proposed, in combination with Bitcoin, is the best way to work toward "what Bitcoin is all about".

I didn't make any assumptions on anyone's behalf. I predicted that the majority of people will prefer my plan if they understood it and what it would lead to. I did not assume you are in that majority, and you are free not to use the system I proposed.

...
The difference between a soldier and a terrorist is the terrorist knows what he fights for while the soldier does what he's told. ...

...

I'm pretty sure  plenty of terrorists are just as, if not even more, mislead about the true reasons they are being sent to fight than soldiers of big countries like the US.

Soldiers and terrorists can be misled as to why they're fighting, but I expect it happens more with soldiers. By definition, if someone is ordered by authorities (including of another country) to attack, they are a soldier instead of a terrorist. If they choose to do it on their own (or a private group tells them to), they're a terrorist.

When I wrote that my proposal is something many authorities and terrorists could agree on and stop some of their wars, I did not mean it was only about them. I predict its something the majority of all people can agree on, and one of the bigger benefits of that is authorities and terrorists, which are the 2 extremes, are likely to agree on it. I see now that I implied it was about what they want but what I meant was its good for almost everyone, plus the wars between authorities and terrorists would be reduced, but the important thing is its the best thing for the Human species to do right now. I also meant that the history events I listed lead to World War 3 and if we do what I proposed that will not happen, so do what I said or billions of people will die, but the threat is not coming from me, and there are enough reasons to do my plan on its own merits without its connection to avoiding World War 3, but I don't think people think ahead enough paradigm-shifts to see such reasons.


If we use Bitcoin AND an identity proving branch of it, we get anonymous and access to businesses and defeating the central bank system in a free market where the best economies win. Can anyone tell me why Bitcoin and dollars is better than Bitcoin and what I proposed?


About giving power to authorities... That could mean anyone who a group of people trust to hold their identity private-keys (to digitally-sign blocks and send the signature back). It could be government, OpenID, a bank which connects the decentralized system to debit cards, or run your own identity server. Run thousands of identity servers in a decentralized way if you want. If you don't like a certain group or authority, set up such a system with someone you do trust or build a decentralized system of identification and hook it into that. These are all things that would make businesses more willing to connect to a Bitcoin-like system, plus we would trade money between this system and Bitcoin.

To all banks and credit cards (and I know you're reading this based on the call I got from a debt collector who conveniently forgot to call me until now, and I'm going to pay it), you can use these systems since they're open source, but you can't defeat us in a free market because we run things like a charity and have complete automation while you hire many people to do things manually. Please, use our systems for free (it would help the economy and get people to accept it when we run them), but nobody can use them as well as we do, and the central banking system will be defeated by decentralization. Enjoy the free infrastructure until then. The "technical details" I wrote above would allow Banks to use such infrastructure, if they wanted to. I said "I serve the Human species and all life forms", and that includes the central banking system. I'm not your enemy (I don't hate on anyone, regardless of what they do), but technology has advanced and the way you do things is becoming obsolete.

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June 29, 2011, 08:30:05 AM
 #21

In the end the two things can kinda overlap though, soldiers can be terrorists if they use terror techniques, and terrorists can be soldiers depending on their associations and the hierarchy of their groups, their roles in the attacks etc.



(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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June 29, 2011, 10:29:01 AM
 #22

Terrorism is the use of force/violence to achieve political ends (referencing dictionary.com, not some wacko conspiracy-theory site)

government, military, police, and tax-man are all terrorists as much as Osama was (wait, who's the terrorist and who's the "freedom fighter" again...I keep getting confused)

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June 29, 2011, 10:48:46 AM
 #23

If you're just shooting the people coming to attack you, you're not a terrorist; but if you boobytrap their mattresses with fragmentation grenade, poison their food supply with disease, surround their houses with stakes impaling their pets etc then you are.

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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June 29, 2011, 10:56:44 AM
 #24

A Compromise To Avoid World War 3.
Ben F Rayfield, 2011.
All my writing, here or anywhere else, permission granted to copy, since redundant is harder to censor.

This is about slavery to money and a way to change that by open-sourcing the economy using a common identity-verifying system and leaving other functions to the open-source code, for example, a branch of Bitcoin which has an extra key held by a.......

Blah
blah blah
blah jabber
drone drone
blah.....


--Ben F Rayfield, 2011.

Could you summise this rambling monologue into, say, 2 sentences? Reading the OP is like wading through lard, I gave up after the first paragraph.

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JA37
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June 29, 2011, 11:51:08 AM
 #25

A compromise between right and wrong is still wrong. A compromise between good and bad is still bad.
What's it like up there on your high horses?
In everything but the simplest questions there's a compromise.

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Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
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June 30, 2011, 03:20:50 AM
Last edit: June 30, 2011, 04:43:10 AM by BenRayfield
 #26

I'm done talking about terrorism, since this is really about slavery to money, and ending the majority of those conflicts is just an extra benefit which prevents the death of billions of people in a war escalating from such conflicts.

Quote
Could you summise this rambling monologue into, say, 2 sentences? Reading the OP is like wading through lard, I gave up after the first paragraph.

Bitcoin proved that the open-source movement is strong and advanced enough to build economies, and now that we can do that for ourselves and let money advance into systems where its more than just a number, forcing us to continue using dollars (or other centralized currency) would be slavery. Extremely more businesses would accept an identity-proving system than an anonymous system, but we should use both for the inevitable time when authorities abuse such identity power and need to be pushed back into obedience to democracy, and on top of that we can create an open-source competition where the best economies get the most invested in them, so economies are created that influence society toward whatever the majority of people want it to become.

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June 30, 2011, 01:08:14 PM
 #27

A compromise between right and wrong is still wrong. A compromise between good and bad is still bad.
In everything but the simplest questions there's a compromise.

Not in questions between right and wrong.

"Shall we start WW3 and obliterate the world?"
"No, that would be evil"
"OK then, let's compromise. We'll obliterate half the world and leave half untouched".
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June 30, 2011, 02:11:56 PM
 #28

A compromise between right and wrong is still wrong. A compromise between good and bad is still bad.
In everything but the simplest questions there's a compromise.

Not in questions between right and wrong.

"Shall we start WW3 and obliterate the world?"
"No, that would be evil"
"OK then, let's compromise. We'll obliterate half the world and leave half untouched".

Read the first six words that I wrote.

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Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
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June 30, 2011, 02:20:14 PM
 #29

I sure didn't read that whole first thing. Most of the comments I've read and seem to possibility go OT or new conversations. I hope you posted that in some other forum where people care <3
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July 01, 2011, 01:30:22 AM
Last edit: July 01, 2011, 04:29:00 AM by BenRayfield
 #30

Yes I've posted it in other places. This is just my first try. I'll keep talking to people about it until I find what they're not understanding or believing about it, because if they understood and believed it all, they would certainly act on it. So far, nobody has said anything to defeat or weaken what I said, but I see a lot of getting off subject and ignoring, and I'm going to figure out why its happening and prove the basic idea to enough people that this starts to spread. World War 3 is cancelled, and I'm not taking no for an answer. The first step would be to get people to understand and then admit thats what global events are moving toward if we do nothing or if we ask governments to fix it for us. Then we talk about possible solutions, and I doubt anyone will have a better solution than what i proposed (just the identity interface, not the example I gave). The Bitcoin forum is where the relevant people are, able to influence such global events, but if they stop listening I'll take the debate somewhere else.

I know the central banking system is scared of me because of that call I got from a debt collector who conveniently forgot to call me until 2 days after I wrote that. What they fear most is a fair competition, a free market of economies, and if you Bitcoin people would get over your hate of authorities you could make that happen. I think most authorities are equally frustrated with the central bank system as we are, but they know of no better system or way to replace the old one with it.

The central banking system has masterminded a plan to get the whole world to fight itself to keep themselves in power. They never expected we would start working together on a global scale. Its something they didn't plan for, something they don't have enough time to form a legal offense against. We don't need to hurt anyone, hack any computers, fund any crimes, or do anything secret, to obsolete the central bank system. We can win without a conflict, and if they cooperate with this global change they'll become a part of this new system by providing ATMs, card readers, and cards to access the identity half of it. The first bank to offer access to Bitcoin-like systems will take many customers from other banks. The other banks follow, and it makes it easier for the original Bitcoin and similar systems to be accepted independent of the central banking system, which obsoletes them at exponential speed (but a very small exponent). The strategy I proposed is that effective. Please read it.

I also want to prove that governments strategy of keeping their most important information secret, is not necessary to get big things done. In this global change, I will publish all information that anyone would think is important and sign my name to it, including things like "we should use both for the inevitable time when authorities abuse such identity power and need to be pushed back into obedience to democracy". We're never going to get global problems solved if we don't share important information.

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July 02, 2011, 04:07:21 AM
 #31

Hi Ben,

I think that your idea is a step in the right the direction. I have a question.

This system you propose would require the individual being granted a bitcoin address from the "coincryptaddress" issuing authority before trading, is that correct?
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July 02, 2011, 04:23:48 AM
Last edit: July 03, 2011, 01:22:24 AM by BenRayfield
 #32

You would sign up at an identity service provider (lets call it IdentSP, not ISP) with a name and password like any other website. They would keep a private-key that means your identity and tell others your name that you proved to them. They would give you the public-key matching that private-key which they keep secret. They would also give you the public-key of their certificate-authority and a digital-signature (signed by the private-key of the certificate-authority) of the identity public key. A certificate-authority is simply this system I'm describing, where keys are signed by other keys. Other than that, you would generate anonymous Bitcoin-like addresses the same way Bitcoin does today. Using a lot of bandwidth, it would have to send all new blocks (including transactions, anything that gets digitally-signed) to the identity service provider, they sign it with your identity private-key, then send it back to your Bitcoin which continues using it as normal Bitcoin does today.

That's the technical way to say it. In practice, you would sign up for an account with an identity service provider, prove your identity to them, and give Bitcoin a file they give you. Then it works the same as normal Bitcoin, while storing your identity public-key and related data in the network.

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July 02, 2011, 04:29:53 AM
 #33

So each bitcoin-like address created would be tied to some key held by the certificate-authority?

Like would it be possible to assign ownership of each bitcoin address to an individual?
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July 02, 2011, 04:45:54 AM
Last edit: July 02, 2011, 05:02:39 AM by BenRayfield
 #34

Any person could use any Bitcoin-like address that they have the private-key for (which they have if their modified Bitcoin generated it). They can have as many Bitcoin-like addresses as they want, to organize their money into many accounts, but all would be used with 1 identity key pair.

Anything you add to the Bitcoin-like network (transactions, maybe timestamp merkle trees) would have a pair of public-keys: 1 for identity and 1 of the Bitcoin-like addresses you generate (1 of your many accounts). Everything you do would be publicly viewable to anyone who knows who owns your identity public-key (you do), but it could be set up so only a bank or government gets to know who owns which identity public-key so it would be anonymous to everyone except the authorities who watch transactions and identities, like banks work now except using our infrastructure and much simpler.

It sounds almost as bad as the central bank system, but the purpose is to get authorities to accept this system and for it to lead to more innovations in open-source economy design and to obsolete the central bank system. Work with them, then obsolete them, and we'll do it while publicly saying and saying to their face that's the plan.

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July 02, 2011, 04:58:32 AM
 #35

Well yea it sounds bad, but there must be an element of realism. As you said businesses would have more confidence in such a system of-course. And this would lead to an indirect benefit to bitcoin.

So what mechanisms of accountability should there be on the certificate issuing authority? And what incentive is there for them? Under what circumstances would the individual's information be accessed?

Rather than offering an olive branch to authorities, should just try to replace them altogether.
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July 02, 2011, 05:15:11 AM
Last edit: July 03, 2011, 12:44:40 AM by BenRayfield
 #36

Lets leave the levels of accountability to whichever organization would agree to do this and are trusted by many people. Once they accept the job, government will tell them what to do, and if not, government acknowledges that its legal. Leave the accountability stuff to the authorities/businesses/banks/etc. We handle the open-source.

Its more than a certificate authority if you need freezability of accounts, like banks did to Wikileaks. I disagree with them freezing Wikileaks account and most freezing in general, but governments will demand the ability, and we can offer that by having the certificate authority be the only holder for the identity private-key and they do all the digital-signing using it, then send the signature back to the modified Bitcoin.

If account freezability is not included, a simple certificate authority will work, and a person can hold their own identity private-key.

You think I'm trying to be a pussy? The long-term goal of my plan has always been complete decentralization of society, obsoleting governments, central banks, and ending of all centralization, all without any violence or crimes or deception. After that, as I've been planning for years in a process I named "artificial parapsychology" (search for it), all people using the system will strengthen the existing "global telepathy network" (which has existed for all of Human history), giving everyone the ability to read/write minds, telekinesis, and over time we learn more advanced mental abilities. If you read on the first page, I said in some ways we're all gods, and I meant that. But we have to do this in steps, and the next step is decentralize the economy, and possibly in parallel get the Zeitgeist people to try out a centralized prototype of the stock-market-like (a little like that) bitcoin-like program described in the first post of this thread. "Olive branch"? Yes, for the purpose of efficiency and to maximize the utility-function (maximum of people get what they want). Peace is extremely more efficient than war. Also, myself and many other metaphysical life forms (also known as spirits, but that incorrectly implies they're dead) have invested huge amounts of resources into helping the Human species, and we will protect our investment if necessary (on a large scale statistically, since we can't be everywhere at once), which means every person on this planet, so don't screw with the banks or anyone else, while we figure out how to do this global change in the most democratic way possible, keeping everyone in the loop. Things simply work differently in the metaphysical. We're not claiming to own anyone or that they owe us anything. This is independent of the common identity system I propose in this thread, something that would be built on top of it, and in other technology, so nobody is forced to use these metaphysical things. They could, for example, use only modified Bitcoin with identity system and a debit card.

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July 02, 2011, 05:44:03 AM
 #37

Don't get me wrong I think that it would be a step in the right direction. This would be a small step towards the ideal scenario.

But the strategy your using relies on acceptance from current authorities. ATM I don't think there is significant incentive for authorities to consider this plan. They will be facing pressure from many counter-parties and I doubt that their tax revenues are being detrimentally affected.

Lets say that tomorrow that this new system is built with the attributes that you speak of. What incentive is there for authorities to become certificate authorities? I don't think there is much. They would be able to tax everyone's bit-coins more easily, but be pressured from vested interests. If they are going to tax our bitcoins then maybe we should consider taxing them ourselves? To provide favorable conditions for non-bitcoin entrepreneurs.

So for this system to be accepted, there is an element of hope that these factors will be affected. However by the time bitcoin affects tax revenues, then this will mean that bitcoin is widely acceptance. There might be little point of building the system by then.

And lets say for some reason that this system was accepted by authorities tomorrow. There is still the bureaucratic crap that would undermine the process.

I like the idea, but it does go against some of the core themes of the current bitcoin community.

The only benefit of the system you propose is that it removes the need for current banking.  However this gives more effective control to the certificate-issuing authority. Sure the cost of transactions will fall, but it will be significantly more effective to control money flows than is possible using the current paper system.

Imagine the next financial crisis. Instead of the government guaranteeing runs against banks, lets just limit everyone's ability to spend money. Using this system it will be much easier.
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July 02, 2011, 05:54:00 AM
 #38

Authorities will want to work with us on this because if they don't then anonymous Bitcoin will continue to expand until a global conflict starts based on it, then laws will constrict freedom, wars will start as a result of such legal action, the central banks will accelerate such conflicts, and World War 3 starts. Is that enough reason to avoid that possible future?

I'm still trying to figure out how to explain these global events based on the facts. It will take some time, but the summary is in the first post of this thread. People either don't understand it, don't believe it, or don't want to admit its true. Change the world or die. Its that simple.

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July 02, 2011, 10:04:02 PM
 #39

Authorities will want to work with us on this because...
Disagree, if authorities don't want it, they'll just say it's illegal because of some blah-blah. And that's not what we all need.
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July 02, 2011, 10:08:31 PM
Last edit: July 02, 2011, 10:25:31 PM by BenRayfield
 #40

That's the first thing authorities (anyone who has extreme power and chooses to use it conflicting with what others want) would do, which leads to the wars I described, and they would be forced to change their minds by the many countries who have an interest in them not being dictator through the central bank system. This may not happen until more countries notice the change happening in the global economy, but they will eventually learn of it. Since authorities would change their mind after making it illegal, on average authorities don't really want it to be illegal. This is about slavery to money, so don't think it will be ignored when there is a way to end slavery. Its less about technology and more about many countries being the slaves of a few others, and about individual slaves and bank masters. Free the slaves or fight the biggest war in all of history.

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July 03, 2011, 01:32:35 PM
 #41

That's the first thing authorities (anyone who has extreme power and chooses to use it conflicting with what others want) would do, which leads to the wars I described, and they would be forced to change their minds by the many countries who have an interest in them not being dictator through the central bank system. This may not happen until more countries notice the change happening in the global economy, but they will eventually learn of it. Since authorities would change their mind after making it illegal, on average authorities don't really want it to be illegal. This is about slavery to money, so don't think it will be ignored when there is a way to end slavery. Its less about technology and more about many countries being the slaves of a few others, and about individual slaves and bank masters. Free the slaves or fight the biggest war in all of history.
I do agree, but those who are in possession of power won't give it up that easily. The good news are we are big community and won't disappear swift, like lot if individuals endangering the interests of big corporations.
Excuse my poor English. Smiley
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July 03, 2011, 06:31:06 PM
 #42

Excuse my poor English. Smiley

I always love how non-native speakers who have better grammar and command of the English language than a good chunk of the native speakers apologize for their poor English. Relax, You speak / write better English than I do your language (At a guess, from your tag, Russian)

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July 03, 2011, 06:56:57 PM
 #43

That's the first thing authorities (anyone who has extreme power and chooses to use it conflicting with what others want) would do, which leads to the wars I described, and they would be forced to change their minds by the many countries who have an interest in them not being dictator through the central bank system. This may not happen until more countries notice the change happening in the global economy, but they will eventually learn of it. Since authorities would change their mind after making it illegal, on average authorities don't really want it to be illegal. This is about slavery to money, so don't think it will be ignored when there is a way to end slavery. Its less about technology and more about many countries being the slaves of a few others, and about individual slaves and bank masters. Free the slaves or fight the biggest war in all of history.

I don't think you've stepped back quite far enough, Ben. You seem to be holding that the "Central Bank" is the great evil. Certainly central banks and their maniuplation of the the currency to the benefits of the banks is a problem, but it's not the central banks that start wars (on their own people or other nations), setup massive internal spying apparatus (alla the KGB, and now the American Dept. of Homeland Security), or back their country's fiat currencies. Those are government operations. While it's true that central banks would have a lot to lose from a peer to peer currency like bitcoin from going main stream, governments around the world have even more to fear. They lose their tax base, they lose their strangle hold on their population when they lose their ability to "follow the money", they lose their ability to socially engineer everything from tooth paste to tighty-whities.

There has yet to be a government created in human history that has not sought to increase its power over its people. Historically force was used. Today it's social manipulation. Get everybody begging to plunder everybody else, with the government in the middle, and you've got a government capable of almost anything becuase it's legitimacy really does come from its constituencies. And that's exactly what we have today in the U.S. and in Europe. Socialized democracies who prey on their consitituencies fear to feed their endless thirst for power and control. Take from this group and give it to that group. Take from that other group and give it to those people.

And the inexorable end to that ponzi scheme is close at hand: The growing debt crisis in both Europe and the USA.
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July 05, 2011, 01:34:59 AM
 #44

With your permission Ben, I would like to apply your idea to countries like Burma, Darfur and Egypt. I think a decentralized currency would have positive outcomes in such communities.

The initial problems would be:

      - Mobile phone use. Cheap laptops.

      - Telecommunications infrastructure. <-- Hardest.

      - Useability.

      - Region only currency.

Considering that phone networks are either non-existent or heavily controlled by authorities then issue two will be the hardest to solve. Smuggling could solve mobile phone and laptop usage.
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July 06, 2011, 03:19:46 AM
 #45

With your permission Ben, I would like to apply your idea to countries like Burma, Darfur and Egypt. I think a decentralized currency would have positive outcomes in such communities.

The initial problems would be:

      - Mobile phone use. Cheap laptops.

      - Telecommunications infrastructure. <-- Hardest.

      - Useability.

      - Region only currency.

Considering that phone networks are either non-existent or heavily controlled by authorities then issue two will be the hardest to solve. Smuggling could solve mobile phone and laptop usage.

Check out/support MondoNet project.  Help solve issue two

Hippy Anarchy
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July 06, 2011, 07:20:10 AM
Last edit: July 06, 2011, 09:39:22 AM by BenRayfield
 #46

Blackhawke, I found this on Wikipedia, which I consider to be more credible on average than most news sources, because it tends toward a median of peoples' ideas.

Quote
He ordered the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp "as soon as practicable and no later than" January 2010,[111] but during his first two years in office he has been unable to persuade Congress to appropriate funds required to accomplish the shutdown.

They couldn't shut down the war prison because theres not enough funds? It didn't say Congress wanted it to stay open. It said funds were in control, funds which were instead paid in interest on national debt loans to Federal Reserve, interest on money which cost the Federal Reserve approximately zero to create.

There are many times when banks control things indirectly that way, but I agree that governments do some evil things too.

Its a huge tangled system and most of them don't want to fix it. Almost everyone on Earth is looking to get ahead in the corrupt system with no expectation of the system ever improving. As I've started in this thread, I'm going to try something most people never consider as a way to solve the world's problems... I'm going to talk to people, on all sides of the issues, and figure out what is really going on. Nobody else appears to care, as long as they get paid. This strategy most people are using makes no sense to me, the one where they think fighting for small changes in the world makes any significant difference long-term. I don't even care about the Patriot Acts anymore. I want a complete redesign of the entire system, so I'm going to the Zeitgeist Movement's forum. I'm going to try to integrate their ideas for how to organize the world with technologies like Bitcoin and artificial intelligence etc. I don't have time to fight political battles. I only have time to deal with people who can agree on what they want without fighting about it. So far they appear to think Bitcoin is just another way for numbers to control us (like dollars), but Bitcoin could be modified as a voting system or for other secure distributed purposes.


Vaxum, yes please implement my common identity verifying system idea, for an open-source competition where the best economies win, and/or those Bitcoin technical modifications I described, and/or the idea of including text with the money and/or such equations between the texts, wherever you want. Please tell me about your progress on that, if it works out, and call me ( phone at http://HumanAI.net ) if I could help.

I'm not abandoning the plans I made in this thread, but I think I can work toward that more efficiently through the Zeitgeist Movement, and then let the effects of it spread to the world through that.

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July 08, 2011, 03:40:08 PM
 #47

Hmmm.

Fully trackable double-keyed bitcoins, where the "authorities" hold your second key? Without their approval, you can't buy anything with them?

Congratulations! You just turned bitcoins into the Mark of the Beast (TM)!

I suppose your next suggestion will be to encode our private keys, in encrypted form of course, onto an RFID chip we can all have conveniently embedded into the skin of our right hands or foreheads.

Do you have any idea the kind of trouble you would stir up were you to seriously propose this idea to the public at large?

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
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July 09, 2011, 07:50:34 PM
Last edit: July 09, 2011, 08:18:01 PM by BenRayfield
 #48

westkybitcoins, I don't like the idea of giving authorities any more power, but its a strategic move I'm proposing for the end goal of obsoleting all such authorities and central banks etc. I know its the "Mark of the Beast" evil painful type of thing to do, but Bitcoin (and variations of its open source code) needs to "get its foot in the door" of large scale business transactions, and I expect that will be a lot easier to do with the common identity system (which many open-source systems connect to) than with Bitcoin alone. I want Bitcoin as it is now to stay around and for people to keep using it, but I expect what I proposed to make Bitcoin more popular and less laws made against it in the future.

I am against "an RFID chip we can all have conveniently embedded into the skin of our right hands or foreheads". I am against the forced use of the identity system I proposed. Forcing people when you don't have to is bad.

Quote
Do you have any idea the kind of trouble you would stir up were you to seriously propose this idea to the public at large?

The common identity system with many open-source economies using it? Or the idea you proposed about the forced (I assume you mean forced since that's how the chip implants idea is normally talked about) chip implants? For my idea, I want to stir up debates and people trying to change the world, which some may say is "trouble", but its a good thing.

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July 09, 2011, 07:59:36 PM
 #49

Forcing people when you don't have to is bad.

Fixed.

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July 09, 2011, 08:19:45 PM
 #50

myrkul, should anyone who wants to be allowed to build nuclear weapons and automated global deployment and targeting systems?

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July 09, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
 #51

myrkul, should anyone who wants to be allowed to build nuclear weapons and automated global deployment and targeting systems?

Yup. I see no reason why that power should reside solely in the hands of of people who steal to support their violent activities.

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July 09, 2011, 08:46:31 PM
Last edit: July 09, 2011, 09:14:24 PM by BenRayfield
 #52

I agree that governments aren't the right organization to have nuclear power (if anyone should have it at all).

Are you saying that individuals, some of which want to kill millions of people for not believing in their religion, should have the right to have immediately globally deployable weapons of mass destruction? What if one of those people says they only want to build the nuclear weapons so they can bomb the place you live and everything within 1000 miles?

I prefer the world be organized in a decentralized way where majority agreement would be needed, maybe through some unhackable decentralized software or other unhackable technology, for such dangerous things.

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July 09, 2011, 08:59:43 PM
 #53

I agree that governments aren't the right organization to have nuclear power (if anyone should have it at all).

Are you saying that individuals, some of which want to kill millions of people for not believing in their religion, should have the right to have immediately globally deployable weapons of mass destruction? What if one of those people says they only want to build the nuclear weapons so they can bomb the place you live and everything within 1000 miles?

I prefer the world be organized in a decentralized way where majority agreement would be needed, maybe through some unhackable decentralized software or other unhackable technology, for such dangerous things.

The absurdity of unhackable anything aside, The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is not limited to flintlock muskets.

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July 09, 2011, 09:05:29 PM
Last edit: July 09, 2011, 09:43:23 PM by BenRayfield
 #54

Ok, very hard to hack, or harder to hack than governments are to corrupt, which isn't setting the bar really high, but it would be an improvement. The right to unlimited arms was a good idea when that was written hundreds of years ago, but they weren't talking about things that can kill a whole planet or country or whatever size. Regardless of what those old documents say about rights, we should think about the world today and decide what is best based on that. The USA Constitution is great for legal battles, but I won't take my opinions from it unconditionally for the same reason I don't believe ancient religious books. I may read some things from a religious book and decide to believe it or not based on how it fits with other knowledge about the world, and I read documents about rights the same way. I have to think for myself, and based on the world today I don't think everyone should have the individual ability to create weapons of mass destruction, and neither should governments.

We can continue this conversation here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27427.0 in the thread titled "Should individuals have the right to build weapons of mass destruction?".

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July 14, 2011, 01:52:41 AM
 #55

With your permission Ben, I would like to apply your idea to countries like Burma, Darfur and Egypt. I think a decentralized currency would have positive outcomes in such communities.

The initial problems would be:

      - Mobile phone use. Cheap laptops.

      - Telecommunications infrastructure. <-- Hardest.

      - Useability.

      - Region only currency.

Considering that phone networks are either non-existent or heavily controlled by authorities then issue two will be the hardest to solve. Smuggling could solve mobile phone and laptop usage.

Check out/support MondoNet project.  Help solve issue two

Sweet link. It was very helpful. The MondoNet content does not completely solve issue two, but it definitely prevents us from re-inventing the wheel. Thanks!

So if Bitcoin technology is going to be applied to a current disadvantaged society then I think the crypto-currency needs to be limited geographically ? Otherwise the whole exercise is pointless. Another crypto-currency that is directly competing with Bitcoin will be created.

I think the easiest way to limit the currency geographically would be to somehow put a geographical constraint on miners. This way new bitcoins generated and any transaction fees would contribute to the surrounding community. Look at the power banks currently have IMO miners are equivalent to banks and therefore it is reasonable to assume that this would have a large effect on the community. Assuming that there is sufficient miner competition.

Implementing this will need some creativity. I feel people will be a component of the process.

Miner audits? Who does the auditing? Who funds the auditing?

Using GPS? Who verifies the GPS?
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July 14, 2011, 08:22:44 AM
 #56

Constraining Location.

How about a third party e.g the bitcoin community or a charity creates an artificial demand for the currency. Lets create a charity that has an office/s based in a poor nation. Technically the purchase of the coins would need to occur within the poor nation so it could be any trusted third party based inside the nation. This office will purchase crypto-coins. Overtime this will cause a gradual flow of external capital into the community. To make the distribution more random, there could be an algorithm that chooses crypto-coins from specific addresses or block history,etc . The charity office will pay a premium for such crypto-coins. In addition apply a constraint stating that once the eligible crypto-coins are published they are not allowed to transfer between addresses. This would discourage outsiders trying to use the system.

To encourage people to organize themselves there could be a premium for crypto-coins from two/three/four addresses that come to the office at the same time. This will encourage the community to develop communications capability. Such capability is an important precursor for growth.

How is the transition away from charity created/managed?
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July 15, 2011, 01:47:16 AM
 #57


How is the transition away from charity created/managed?


Need to decentralize.

Lets assume that sometime in the future the charity will no longer purchase the currency. Hence the crypto-currency will no longer be geographically confined. Therefore a new mechanism is needed to keep the currency mainly used within the country. This implies a need for capital controls. A static geographical component is needed that has strong control over the currency. This component needs to be defined and decentralized.

So what possible types of control are there? Supply control, demand control and movement control. Supply control is equivalent to issuance control. Demand control is akin to creating the artificial demand outlined prior. Movement control is equivalent to controlling transaction processing.

Supply and movement control could be done with a territorial embedded computer/s. This means constructing a computing object that is geographically confined. This computing object could be extremely heavy, extremely fragile, could be buried, could be sunk to the bottom of water collection, attached to a mountain, etc. Several of these computing objects could be embedded within a territory. Each one would play an important role in processing the block-chain. Communication between the embedded computers could be done via wireless and some novel energy supply would be used. A locator system within each embedded computer could shut the system down if movement was 'inappropriate'. If the embedded system is destroyed then the block-chain could not be processed. Issuance of new currency can not be done without communicating with the embedded computers.

Therefore capital movement would be controlled by the embedded computers. This is unlikely to be a sustainable solution but for under-developed countries to acquire control of the embedded computers would be technologically demanding. If such an event were to occur then this would imply that the country is no longer under-developed.
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