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Author Topic: 0.5 BTC Bounty - Creating a Fiat/Bitcoin Exchange without Fiat Deposits  (Read 4074 times)
thezerg
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June 05, 2013, 03:04:41 AM
 #41

For that, CV Tokens would work much better, assuming they are possible to implement. (Croesus says he was just anthropomorphising the network to avoid confusing the economic side of things.)

I checked out this link, read the first post carefully and skimmed the others.  All I see there is wishful thinking along the lines of "AtiP is a particle that repels matter.  This is what we could build with it.  Whitepaper forthcoming..." 

Just because you can define it does not mean that you can DO it.
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thezerg
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June 05, 2013, 03:17:33 AM
 #42

Operationally, I think you should edit your first post and put the latest rules up there.  Also provide a basic summary of the bitshares system & dividend rules before getting into the exchange rules.

Some questions (assuming cUSD crypto-currency that is supposed to track USD):

1. How do you change your collateral?  Either due to a falling USD->BS price or a rising one?  You should certainly be able to bolster the collateral BS so a liquidation does not occur... and if your collateral value rises tremendously it only seems fair to be able to pull some of it out.

2. How is the price of BS->USD (value of the collateral) determined?

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June 05, 2013, 03:49:53 AM
 #43

I have created a much more complete white paper that should answer your questions: http://the-iland.net/static/downloads/BitSharesWhitePaper.pdf

You can update your collateral at any time by creating a transaction that takes your position + extra collateral and generates an output with additional collateral.

From the white paper:
Economics of BitShares
   BitShares attempts to arrange for all actors to act proactively to ensure that collateral requirements are met even during the most extreme market fluctuations.  To illustrate how these market forces will interact with the BitShare block-chain rules lets consider some example market situations.


Rapid Fall in BitShare Value
   If the value of a BitShare starts to fall rapidly against crypto-Gold, then all shorts in the system will be faced with a ‘squeeze’ which will force them to buy proactively before their margin is called.  If their margin is hit, then they will suffer a 5% fee or worse, complete loss of their collateral.   The result of this short-squeeze is that the value of ‘crypto-Gold’ would rise dramatically above market value causing even more shorts to face margin calls.  This would create an opportunity for new shorts to enter market with full collateral backing their new position.  These new shorts would profit when the price settles down after the short-squeeze is over.    As a result all market participants will be pro-active about monitoring the price and their collateral which should result in the minimal amount of volatility. 

Rapid Rise in BitShare Value
   If the value of BitShares rises rapidly against crypto-Gold, then all shorts would have an opportunity to cover their positions at a profit.  If they fail to cover their position then the result will be opportunity costs associated with maintaining more than the required margin and crypto-Gold paying even higher dividends.


Connecting Gold to Crypto-Gold Price
  All market participants have something to gain if a common understanding can be reached that crypto-Gold is an IOU for a 1oz gold coin.  However, initially there will be no ‘trust’ in what crypto-Gold actually means.  As a result market participants will start out placing orders with a wide spread.  As the market depth increases the spread will also decrease until a price is reached that has market consensus and is near parity with gold. 

What happens if a sub-currency goes ‘no-bid’?
  The first thing that must be understood is that a sub-currency always has value proportional to the dividends backing it.  Therefore, the short-position incurs a constant opportunity-cost by not covering.   Likewise, the long is still receiving a revenue stream that has value independent of the value of a BitShare and therefore ‘above-market’ interest rates will attract new buyers to that sub-currency which means that all sub-currencies are always ‘liquid’ based solely on relative interest rates.   As a result no sub-currency will ever go ‘no-bid’. 
   For this reason the early adopters face limited (if any) risk in being the first to purchase crypto-Gold.  They would be trading BitShares at 10% APR for crypto-Gold that paid twice the BitShares-per-block and therefore profit even if they are the only buyer.  When it comes time to ‘unwind’ this one trade, the price will be determined by whom ever wants the liquidity more.  If the short wants to stop the bleeding opportunity cost, they will be forced to buy back at a higher price.  If the long wants to convert to another asset then they may sell at a lower price.   Either way, it is unlikely that there would ever only be two players in any given sub-currency market based only on the opportunity to ‘profit’ from higher interest rates.


What happens if there is a market crash that causes margins to be insufficient?
  In this event the longs will be paid out via dividends with the capital from the defaulted short positions.  The market would then re-establish at the lower price with new collateral.   Only the most severe crash in the value of BitShares could trigger such an event as it is unlikely that any other asset class could ‘rise in value‘ relative to a stable BitShare value that fast.   Market participants will select margin requirements based upon their estimate of volatility and as a result receive sufficient interest to justify their risk.

  If BitShares lose all value it would be a complete collapse of the entire system and everyone would lose.  This would be a very unlikely event barring an breach in the block-chain algorithm or encryption.    Early adopters would receive higher interest rates due to the smaller monetary base and therefore be compensated for taking a greater risk.   Those who come later will have much more confidence in the algorithm and therefore receive a lower dividend rate.

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June 08, 2013, 05:06:59 AM
 #44

meanwhile, have a look at bitcoin.de , they dont ask for a money deposit, only a BTC deposit from the seller. So in case the buyer doesnt actually pay, nothing is lost and and the BTC can be returned to the seller; on the other side, the BTC from the seller is frozen when a transaction starts, so when a buyer did transfer the money but the seller doesnt confirm, then the exchange-owners can always check and release the frozen amount of BTC.
It is slow (because of banks), but it works.

How can they (the exchange owners) check whether the fiat money was transferred? This is the key. If the BTC seller denies receiving the money, and is lying, he gets to keep the BTC and the fiat.

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June 08, 2013, 11:20:17 AM
 #45


Is offer still available?

bytemaster (OP)
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June 08, 2013, 01:19:32 PM
 #46

Yes the bounty is still good.

https://fractally.com - the next generation of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
bytemaster (OP)
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June 08, 2013, 01:27:31 PM
 #47

meanwhile, have a look at bitcoin.de , they dont ask for a money deposit, only a BTC deposit from the seller. So in case the buyer doesnt actually pay, nothing is lost and and the BTC can be returned to the seller; on the other side, the BTC from the seller is frozen when a transaction starts, so when a buyer did transfer the money but the seller doesnt confirm, then the exchange-owners can always check and release the frozen amount of BTC.
It is slow (because of banks), but it works.

How can they (the exchange owners) check whether the fiat money was transferred? This is the key. If the BTC seller denies receiving the money, and is lying, he gets to keep the BTC and the fiat.


First of all, the exchange does not deal in "dollars" but "dollar IOUs"  that are backed by BitShares with a 2x margin.   Therefore, when someone 'shorts' dollars they 'owe the network' the dollars and so long as they do not cover they are incurring opportunity cost in lost dividends.   Likewise, if the exchange rate moves against them the network will automatically cover their position. 

The end result is that the exchange never has to confirm any fiat transfers. 

The 'fiat' is exchanged for crypto-USD either in-person, via Nash X, via OTC, or via Escrow.  The *purpose* of this exchange is not to facilitate actual fiat transfers so much as to create crypto-USD that tracks the value of USD and thus enables people to exchange it without risk and thus increase the viability of 'local-bitshares' as well as the demand for the currency.   Once you have crypto-USD you can trade it for crypto-Gold, BitShares and BitCoin.

https://fractally.com - the next generation of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
bytemaster (OP)
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June 08, 2013, 01:36:36 PM
 #48

meanwhile, have a look at bitcoin.de , they dont ask for a money deposit, only a BTC deposit from the seller. So in case the buyer doesnt actually pay, nothing is lost and and the BTC can be returned to the seller; on the other side, the BTC from the seller is frozen when a transaction starts, so when a buyer did transfer the money but the seller doesnt confirm, then the exchange-owners can always check and release the frozen amount of BTC.
It is slow (because of banks), but it works.

How can they (the exchange owners) check whether the fiat money was transferred? This is the key. If the BTC seller denies receiving the money, and is lying, he gets to keep the BTC and the fiat.


First of all, the exchange does not deal in "dollars" but "dollar IOUs"  that are backed by BitShares with a 2x margin.   Therefore, when someone 'shorts' dollars they 'owe the network' the dollars and so long as they do not cover they are incurring opportunity cost in lost dividends.   Likewise, if the exchange rate moves against them the network will automatically cover their position. 

The end result is that the exchange never has to confirm any fiat transfers. 

The 'fiat' is exchanged for crypto-USD either in-person, via Nash X, via OTC, or via Escrow.  The *purpose* of this exchange is not to facilitate actual fiat transfers so much as to create crypto-USD that tracks the value of USD and thus enables people to exchange it without risk and thus increase the viability of 'local-bitshares' as well as the demand for the currency.   Once you have crypto-USD you can trade it for crypto-Gold, BitShares and BitCoin.

I want to clarify how this works:  Why you short crypto-USD you are 'creating' crypto-USD.  To 'cover' you must buy back crypto-USD with BitShares and thus 'destroy' the crypto-USD.   End result, no fiat ever had to exchange hands and yet someone was still able to take a position in USD.    Thus trading paper-fiat is entirely outside the scope of this exchange, but the presence of this exchange makes it easier to trade paper-fiat for crypto-fiat.

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June 13, 2013, 02:38:13 AM
 #49

Hi bytemaster,

A few questions (quotes from the whitepaper):

Quote
When someone shorts crypto-Gold and posts two or more times
the value of that crypto-Gold as collateral and the dividends from that collateral are paid
to those who hold crypto-Gold. As a result, the short-seller incurs an opportunity cost
proportional to twice the value of their position and the owner of crypto-Gold is receiving
twice the dividend rate as those who hold BitShares. As a result, holding a short
position has carrying costs that ultimately encourage covering and taking a long-position
pays extra dividends to compensate for risk.

So why would anyone ever short (create) crypto-X currency?

Quote
Connecting Gold to Crypto-Gold Price
All market participants have something to gain if a common understanding can be
reached that crypto-Gold is an IOU for a 1oz gold coin. However, initially there will be
no ‘trust’ in what crypto-Gold actually means. As a result market participants will start
out placing orders with a wide spread. As the market depth increases the spread will
also decrease until a price is reached that has market consensus and is near parity with
gold.

This is just stating your opinion that convergence will happen.  I think that you essentially believe that crypto-Gold per BS will converge to be near Gold per BS because people want a crypto-Gold.

But I believe that for convergence to happen you must have a force within the bitshares system that drives the price of crypto-Gold towards that of Gold.  Is there this force (did I miss it)?

Given the 2x backing requirements, wouldn't the value of crypto-Gold be "driven" towards 2oz gold?

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June 13, 2013, 03:52:47 AM
 #50

Hi bytemaster,

A few questions (quotes from the whitepaper):

Quote
When someone shorts crypto-Gold and posts two or more times
the value of that crypto-Gold as collateral and the dividends from that collateral are paid
to those who hold crypto-Gold. As a result, the short-seller incurs an opportunity cost
proportional to twice the value of their position and the owner of crypto-Gold is receiving
twice the dividend rate as those who hold BitShares. As a result, holding a short
position has carrying costs that ultimately encourage covering and taking a long-position
pays extra dividends to compensate for risk.

So why would anyone ever short (create) crypto-X currency?

Quote
Connecting Gold to Crypto-Gold Price
All market participants have something to gain if a common understanding can be
reached that crypto-Gold is an IOU for a 1oz gold coin. However, initially there will be
no ‘trust’ in what crypto-Gold actually means. As a result market participants will start
out placing orders with a wide spread. As the market depth increases the spread will
also decrease until a price is reached that has market consensus and is near parity with
gold.

This is just stating your opinion that convergence will happen.  I think that you essentially believe that crypto-Gold per BS will converge to be near Gold per BS because people want a crypto-Gold.

But I believe that for convergence to happen you must have a force within the bitshares system that drives the price of crypto-Gold towards that of Gold.  Is there this force (did I miss it)?

Given the 2x backing requirements, wouldn't the value of crypto-Gold be "driven" towards 2oz gold?

I have thought about this recently and from a 'revenue stream' perspective, crypto-gold is worth 2x BitShares, however there is also a risk component and exchange rate fluctuation.     Based upon the 'bid-ask' price used to establish the initial exchange, I would expect it to trade at a slight premium to gold simply because it pays interest.    The point is that the premium fluctuate with the average margin and thus always be 'correlated to gold'.   In effect, any premium is a 'constant' offset and generally predictable.   

You could perform a thought experiment.   Suppose the exchange rate between gold and Bitshares was 100 BS to 1 G, then 1 G would pay dividends equal to 200 BS and if the dividend rate were '10%'  then that means 1G would pay 20 BS  / year.    Now if the exchange rate changes by 20% then the 'risk' of holding 1G vs BS is greater than the dividend advantage.   As a result, I concluded that despite 2x the dividend rate it would not have 2x the value in the market except for those playing short-term trades.   The conclusion I draw is that the dividend advantage would serve to generate liquidity.




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