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Author Topic: Enough with the elitist crap  (Read 5451 times)
bcearl
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June 27, 2011, 02:26:55 PM
 #21

The use of Windows operating systems, particularly for mining, is a threat to the security of the Bitcoin network.

Stop it.

I agree.

Misspelling protects against dictionary attacks NOT
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June 27, 2011, 02:31:11 PM
 #22

The use of Windows operating systems, particularly for mining, is a threat to the security of the Bitcoin network.

Stop it.

I agree.
I think updates have alot to do with it. Windows should do a better job at forcing people to update, and that right there would keep 95% of the computers hack proof. Windows is really good at patching hacks, especially ever since windows 7 came out. This is really their baby, and they are trying really hard to end this Windows hackers culture.

EDIT: And everyone on here should be on windows 7 or windows server 2008. If you are running XP or any older versions of windows, you deserve to get hacked. 

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unbuttered_toast
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June 27, 2011, 02:48:57 PM
 #23

I agree about not blaming victims, elitism being inappropriate, and so forth.

There is also the separate, but utterly valid point, that Bitcoin is not for average computer users yet. When I see yet another person claiming to be hacked, besides skepticism, I only feel about 1/3 sympathy. The other 2/3 is along the lines of "sigh. another one who got in too early."

Perhaps we could gently steer new users away from the project, for a while? Maybe get a sticky that says something like "If you don't know what a hash is, it's a thing that has carnivorous money-eating dragons inside."
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June 27, 2011, 02:56:06 PM
 #24

I agree about not blaming victims, elitism being inappropriate, and so forth.

There is also the separate, but utterly valid point, that Bitcoin is not for average computer users yet.

Perhaps we could gently steer new users away from the project, for a while? Maybe get a sticky that says something like "If you don't know what a hash is, it's a thing that has carnivorous money-eating dragons inside."
I think most of the people getting hacked are fairly good at computers, I just think they're careless lol. The people who think hashes are fairy dragons would never dare put their money into this lol.  Tongue

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aral
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June 27, 2011, 02:59:54 PM
 #25

I think most of the people getting hacked are fairly good at computers, I just think they're careless lol.

So, which are you, careless or inept?
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June 27, 2011, 03:01:10 PM
 #26

I don't mind 'victims'. They increase the net worth of bitcoin by releasing their coins to others who know what to do with them. Consider it a 'stupidity tax' if you get hacked. Such is life on the internet.

Also, I'm not seeing enough "CRASH CRASH CRASH" and "Mt.Gox" threads, someone better get going on that.

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de_bert
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June 27, 2011, 03:01:36 PM
 #27

On the other hand, as a developer I can understand the other side of the "coin" as well. People become annoyed if the 1000th person creates an account on this forums and thinks he has a completely original idea by proposing wallet encryption, even though the developers are working hard on implementing it. Or makes yet another topic why bitcoin won't succeed. Or thinks its a CIA plot. And so on. If people haven't done their own research, a simple google query would do, then they can expect the replies to be a bit snarky.

I don't think most people consider it an original idea - they think it would make sense. And I've done the forum research, and have found posts about encrypting wallet.dat from last year! And posts arguing "encryption does not make it 100% safe either so why bother" from last year, too.

I'm aware that no encryption scheme would make wallet.dat entirely safe, but it would stop many drive-by-attacks. Like having a lock on your bicycle will prevent the drunk from taking it to go home and then sinking it in a lake.
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June 27, 2011, 03:13:01 PM
 #28

I think most of the people getting hacked are fairly good at computers, I just think they're careless lol.

So, which are you, careless or inept?
Careless, even though my main box has never gotten hacked, and zero money has been stolen from me. All my shit is offline anyways Wink .

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June 27, 2011, 03:15:51 PM
 #29

The use of Windows operating systems, particularly for mining, is a threat to the security of the Bitcoin network.

Stop it.

I agree.

How exactly does using windows for mining threaten the security of the Bitcoin network?  This must have been intended as a joke.
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June 27, 2011, 03:16:31 PM
 #30

Just say, "yes, the client (or documentation, or whatever) can always improve. We are working on it, and would love to hear your ideas"review your well commented and standard compliant patch to the Git repo.

There Fixed it.

The bitcoin infrastructure is not a product, if people come in and try to treat it as such, they are bound to be disappointed. If you want to build and market a compliant client, please by all means, if you can find a market niche meet it. As it stands bitcoind is FLOSS, in FLOSS land meritocracy matters, and you don't get to make demands if you don't contribute usable code, otherwise you are asking the devs to work for you for free, which is not a very compelling argument.

That is not true. Any open source project has plenty of work for people that aren't coders - including support and documentation issues. Hell, most large projects like Drupal are flush with coders but begging for people to go back and re-write documentation that hasn't been updated in 2 or 3 years, etc. And devs can only work on what they know  about. Filing bug reports and feature requests and having those commented on by other users is also very important.

I don't think he meant that only coders can help the project, but rather that in a FLOSS project you don't get to complain as if you were a client, what's very true. You're not a costumer, you're getting it for free. If you want something better, either contribute to it directly or convince/hire someone to do it for you.

Good feedback is always welcome by any reasonable person, but it is true that many people think devs here are at their service, complaining as if they were on the costumers line of some service they're paying for.

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lemonginger
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June 27, 2011, 03:25:25 PM
 #31

Windows 7 is actually light years ahead of earlier versions in terms of stability and security. At least people should upgrade.

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June 27, 2011, 03:28:03 PM
 #32

The use of Windows operating systems, particularly for mining, is a threat to the security of the Bitcoin network.

Stop it.

I agree.

How exactly does using windows for mining threaten the security of the Bitcoin network?  This must have been intended as a joke.

It is no joke.

Windows operating systems dominate as attack vectors.

Ok so if I were to have say a dedicated mining rig running windows - and lets say that rig is compromised by some attacker...  What threat does that create for the Bitcoin network?  He or she can now do what?  Well they could stop my miner, or better yet, they could point it at their own worker account on some pool and get some free mining at my expense.  Mybe they could use the compromised PC to attempt to attack other devices on the same local network, use it to send spam, etc..  How does the fact that I used a windows operating system on a mining rig threaten the Bitcoin network?  I am just trying to understand.
wegotpickles
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June 27, 2011, 03:30:55 PM
 #33

The use of Windows operating systems, particularly for mining, is a threat to the security of the Bitcoin network.

Stop it.
I don't think its fair to blame windows system's for the ineptitude of its users. If they just keep their system up to date and have the common sense to refrain from downloading 20_free_happy_kitten_emoticons.exe then windows is fine for Bitcoin. Just wait until someone builds a wallet sealer for Mac! Oh the profits they will reap, and that's a BSD based system!

Linux's biggest advantage in security is that it's a small user base (relative to windows and mac) which is further divided between distributions. Plus, being a less popular system that only became readily available to the average computer illiterate Joe in the past couple of years, a large part of the user base is to advanced to fall for simple tricks. Leaving attackers with a very tiny target that simply isn't worth the effort while windows and mac exist.


PS: I love your avatar. Praise Bob!

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Dirt Rider
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June 27, 2011, 03:38:46 PM
 #34

Just because Windows is a larger target then Linux doesn't make Linux invulnerable.  It seems irresponsible to suggest that the solution to the world's security woes is to just use Linux.

I respect the fact that many of you love Linux.  But don't be upset if I decide to use Windows.  I know how to properly setup and secure a Windows system but I don't know how to do the same with Linux.  I am 100% certain that if I switched to Linux I would have a more vulnerable system.

I think the best thing to tell people is somthing like this:  While Windows is certainly a larger target, Linux is not free of vulnerabilities so whatever you use, make sure you know how to use it, and secure it.  Otherwise find someone you trust that does.
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June 27, 2011, 03:41:16 PM
 #35

For whats it's worth to you guys, all my mining is done on windows 7 latest updates put in, running on ultra low graphics enhancements. I am getting beautiful hash rates, I really think that windows is way better for mining. Thats just my personal opinion, if you think linux is better than please explain why.

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June 27, 2011, 03:53:25 PM
 #36

I have 4 dedicated Windows 7 mining rigs.  They are on their own separate network behind a firewall which blocks all incoming access and is configured to allow outbound access only to a small list of sites (basically just the various mining pools & windows update).  I don't see how my choice of operating system is a threat to the Bitcoin network, but I am willing to be enlightened.
Gabi
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June 27, 2011, 03:54:27 PM
 #37

Windows is NOT insecure, stop saying bullshits

If you are an idiot you will end up installing viruses in a linux or mac computer too, is it linux or mac insecure then?

I use windows and no problems since ages, probably even before Windows XP. And Windows 7 rule.
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June 27, 2011, 03:59:34 PM
 #38

You shouldn't ever write when your agitated, but here goes.

Bitcoin is not just for Linux users
Think about whether you fancy yourself as part of the "technological ruling elite". Bitcoin has nothing to do with any OS. All people should be able to freely use and enjoy this technological advancement. Different OS's represent different user groups, and those groups may differ from you in many ways. They probably differ in technical expertise from yourself. The solution isn't to make them just like you....

Stop Blaming the victims
It's already well known that for every hack some portion of the blame will rest on the victim. No doubt, they will also be blaming themselves. Most likely they were running windows, and they didn't do X, Y, or Z. Instead of trolling their loss, show some empathy, and work out what we have learned. See if theres anyway the 'bitcoin system' could be set up to avoid these kinds of losses (to go hand in hand with 'user education').

Stop being so God-damn defensive
We are all indebted to the people who develop bitcoin. Still, they are men and women, not Gods. If you see a new comminuty forming around Bitcoin (as is happening), and they have different needs, roll with it. Just say, "yes, the client (or documentation, or whatever) can always improve. We are working on it, and would love to hear your ideas". If we start setting up sacred cows its only encourages more trolling on 'both sides' when in reality were on the 'same side'. Case in point, having to know that you even have a wallet.dat file, let alone that is unencrypted, is a area of bitcoin that can be, and is being, improved. Just admit it. If you do admit it, dont worry - it doesn't mean all of bitcoin will go down as a failure for all of time.

Clearly the bitcoin community has seen a rapid increase of users that differ somewhat from the initial users. There are growing pains. Can't we all just get along? *Group Hug*.

Quoted for truth, and to point out how "hilarious" it is that this thread degnerated into an OS war...
Gabi
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June 27, 2011, 04:01:00 PM
 #39

Then it's people fault, NOT Windows fault  Roll Eyes

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June 27, 2011, 04:21:17 PM
 #40

Closed source vs Open source has nothing to do with Windows' insecurities. The fact is that for over a decade now they've consistently chosen a simple user experience over a working privilege separation model, and that's the second biggest contributor to their insecurities. The first is merely the common practices of their users.

If you had the same level of idiocy using Linux as does Windows, your Bitcoins are not safe on Linux either. Linux has functional privilege separation for sure, but if you honestly think there aren't local-root 0-days out there, and that they're not for sale, and that someone with a plan to effortlessly steal lots of electronic currency with almost no chance of it forcibly being taken back wouldn't invest in such a 0-day, you're delusional. That's taking into account that Linux bitcoin users are even running their Bitcoin client in a separate user context than their everyday web browser... show of hands please?

Linux is "secure", but it's not idiot-proof.

^_^
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