Suspicious Lealana eBay Ad!?

[AT101ET]

I was browsing eBay recently and came across two ads from the same user, both for Lealana Litecoins.
The coins are listed as funded and searching one of the first bits does show that at least one of the coins is funded (I didn’t check the others).
What gets me is the hologram. The seller claims that they are ‘untouched’ but they seriously look like they’ve been tampered with.
I’ve included the listings below.
I’ll also send Smoothie a PM in this direction to comment.

Any thoughts?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F172945959913

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F172930068823

[Zepher]

Damn, I have never seen untampered holograms with the firstbits visible multiple times like that*. The hologram looks 100% authentic, but I can't say that hasn't been messed with. Though we should be seeing more of a honeycomb pattern on the rest of it if it was tampered with.

Let's get some more opinions.

*On some casascius coins, you sometimes get one clear row of firstbits with a partial second line visible - but not like that.

[AT101ET]

Damn, I have never seen untampered holograms with the firstbits visible multiple times like that*. The hologram looks 100% authentic, but I can't say that hasn't been messed with. Though we should be seeing more of a honeycomb pattern on the rest of it if it was tampered with.

Let's get some more opinions.

*On some casascius coins, you sometimes get one clear row of firstbits with a partial second line visible - but not like that.

If the firstbit paper wasn’t aligned correctly or moved out of position when applying the hologram it would be normal to see more than one firstbit line (that’s why they print more than one in lines above the other). But I’d assume that you’d only be able to see it through the transparent window. Here it seems as if the firstbit have appeared through solid parts of the hologram itself...

[FFrankie]

It looks like to me that the hologram was just removed by the first bits, there are some pretty big chunks of it missing... Or it could just be an "error"


But its being bought with Paypal, don't they always side with the buyer?

[Zepher]

Damn, I have never seen untampered holograms with the firstbits visible multiple times like that*. The hologram looks 100% authentic, but I can't say that hasn't been messed with. Though we should be seeing more of a honeycomb pattern on the rest of it if it was tampered with.

Let's get some more opinions.

*On some casascius coins, you sometimes get one clear row of firstbits with a partial second line visible - but not like that.

If the firstbit paper wasn’t aligned correctly or moved out of position when applying the hologram it would be normal to see more than one firstbit line (that’s why they print more than one in lines above the other). But I’d assume that you’d only be able to see it through the transparent window. Here it seems as if the firstbit have appeared through solid parts of the hologram itself...

Except there appears to be gaps in the those solid parts.

This doesn't look peeled:



But it certainly doesn't look right either.

[AT101ET]

Damn, I have never seen untampered holograms with the firstbits visible multiple times like that*. The hologram looks 100% authentic, but I can't say that hasn't been messed with. Though we should be seeing more of a honeycomb pattern on the rest of it if it was tampered with.

Let's get some more opinions.

*On some casascius coins, you sometimes get one clear row of firstbits with a partial second line visible - but not like that.

If the firstbit paper wasn’t aligned correctly or moved out of position when applying the hologram it would be normal to see more than one firstbit line (that’s why they print more than one in lines above the other). But I’d assume that you’d only be able to see it through the transparent window. Here it seems as if the firstbit have appeared through solid parts of the hologram itself...

Except there appears to be gaps in the those solid parts.

This doesn't look peeled:



But it certainly doesn't look right either.

It may be some kind of degradation...
I had some Ravenbits that had similar hologram problems around the 1st-bits area...
There are pics of them somewhere in this section.....   

Possibly, but nobody else has come forward to report of such degradation.
I’ve had quite a few 10 LTCs pass through my hands and none had any degradation of that kind.
This seller is selling 3 of these coins that all happen to have it to a similar extent.

[Bogart]

Some of mine show this problem.  Some worse than others.  I had been meaning to post about it.




These are the so-called "error coins" from the first batch, where there is no relief in the metal coin for the key paper to rest in, which makes the hologram sticker bulge a bit.  The deterioration appears to be worst at the edges of the bulge.

[AT101ET]

Some of mine show this problem.  Some worse than others.  I had been meaning to post about it
These are the so-called "error coins" from the first batch, where there is no relief in the metal coin for the key paper to rest in, which makes the hologram sticker bulge a bit.  The deterioration appears to be worst at the edges of the bulge.

Well I guess that explains it then. Thanks for clarifying. It’s interesting how much of a difference a little recession on the coin makes 

[2stout]

Some of mine show this problem.  Some worse than others.  I had been meaning to post about it
These are the so-called "error coins" from the first batch, where there is no relief in the metal coin for the key paper to rest in, which makes the hologram sticker bulge a bit.  The deterioration appears to be worst at the edges of the bulge.

Well I guess that explains it then. Thanks for clarifying. It’s interesting how much of a difference a little recession on the coin makes 

+1
The Encyclopedia of Physical Bitcoins and Crypto-Currencies- Revised Edition by Elias Ahonen, p.201, mentions this 'structural stress' has been documented to cause some damage to the hologram even for coins properly stored, ex- above the 'L' and below the first-bits.

[Fattcatt]

This is why one should get it graded asap. Flaking occurs with the material used to create the 3-D holos. The price for that coin shouldn't be much, I'd guess.

[2stout]

Some of mine show this problem.  Some worse than others.  I had been meaning to post about it
These are the so-called "error coins" from the first batch, where there is no relief in the metal coin for the key paper to rest in, which makes the hologram sticker bulge a bit.  The deterioration appears to be worst at the edges of the bulge.

Well I guess that explains it then. Thanks for clarifying. It’s interesting how much of a difference a little recession on the coin makes 

+1
The Encyclopedia of Physical Bitcoins and Crypto-Currencies- Revised Edition by Elias Ahonen, p.201, mentions this 'structural stress' has been documented to cause some damage to the hologram even for coins properly stored, ex- above the 'L' and below the first-bits.

Interesting....
Possibility that the holograms were made by the same manufacturer for both the Lealanas and Ravenbits around the same time???

It could be; however, in this case it seems the root cause is more in line with the absence of the private key chamfer/pit as opposed to hologram manufacturing, IMHO for what it's worth.

[digicoinuser]

The weird part to me is that with the conclusions being drawn, one would expect a large percentage or all of the coins in the series to have this problem.  It seems very few coins exhibit these symptoms and makes me wonder if more will show up long term.

[smoothie]

This "degradation" of the holograms for the first batch of 10 LTC coins (aka "error" coins) may have this issue. It is an issue that was unforeseen of course as no one had ever created bulgy physical crypto coins with holograms. The issue doesn't appear to manifest itself until months if not years later. Could be also related to alternating temperature increases and decreases that causes the hologram to degrade because of any trapped air under the hologram expanding and contracting (just a theory).

Some of my own coins in my possession have displayed this issue of degradation due to the gap the bulge induces on the hologram.

All of my other coins that have the recess in the metal have not displayed this type of degradation.

The specific area this is affected is only in the middle where the paper private key exists which causes the bulge. The outer areas have not in my knowledge had this issue even with these coins.

I've had one such customer ask me about this in the past.

If you are worried about coins being tampered with or not sure of the state of such a coin you could always request that the coins be sent to you while funds are held in an escrow until you are able to physically check for yourself that the coins are indeed not tampered with before releasing payment to the seller.

This is the responsibility of course of any buyer of physical coins to know the possible risks associated with physical funded crypto coins.

Hope this helps.

[AT101ET]

This "degradation" of the holograms for the first batch of 10 LTC coins (aka "error" coins) may have this issue. It is an issue that was unforeseen of course as no one had ever created bulgy physical crypto coins with holograms. The issue doesn't appear to manifest itself until months if not years later. Could be also related to alternating temperature increases and decreases that causes the hologram to degrade because of any trapped air under the hologram expanding and contracting (just a theory).

Some of my own coins in my possession have displayed this issue of degradation due to the gap the bulge induces on the hologram.

All of my other coins that have the recess in the metal have not displayed this type of degradation.

The specific area this is affected is only in the middle where the paper private key exists which causes the bulge. The outer areas have not in my knowledge had this issue even with these coins.

I've had one such customer ask me about this in the past.

If you are worried about coins being tampered with or not sure of the state of such a coin you could always request that the coins be sent to you while funds are held in an escrow until you are able to physically check for yourself that the coins are indeed not tampered with before releasing payment to the seller.

This is the responsibility of course of any buyer of physical coins to know the possible risks associated with physical funded crypto coins.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for replying and clarifying.
I was just curious as none of my 1st batch coins showed any such degradation. Maybe I have the cold UK weather to thank 
Anyways, thanks for the help. Much appreciated as always