Bitcoin Forum
September 24, 2018, 08:38:34 PM *
News: ♦♦ New info! Bitcoin Core users absolutely must upgrade to previously-announced 0.16.3 [Torrent]. All Bitcoin users should temporarily trust confirmations slightly less. More info.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: The Crypto Gambling Foundation will be calling out fake "Provably fair" sites  (Read 1498 times)
Aengus
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


Edward Miroslav - Primedice & Stake Founder


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 02:13:59 AM
 #1

Starting next week the crypto gambling foundation (www.cryptogambling.org) will be publicly disclosing sites which don't use proper provably fair methods.

The proper way of creating a true provably fair website consists of 3 simple aspects.

Quote
[Server Seed Hash] + [Client Seed] + [Nonce]

A lot of websites miss the nonce aspect. This in turn creates an unfair environment and a major opportunity to rig events. Unless the user changes their client seed EVERY round this case is not fair. They will also have to in turn engage users to verify bets one by one to ensure their fairness. This isn't what anyone (Lets be realistic) does and leaves the vast majority of people open to being scammed. If an operator notices you are not changing your client seed EVERY bet they are able to change the outcome of rolls.

To the websites which do implement fairness properly, this is not fair and leaves Bitcoin gamblers vulnerable.

If you an operator and wish to learn how to implement a proper provably fair system feel free to add me on Telegram (@EdMiroslav).

By all means if we call your fairness system out, we are not saying you are scamming; we're saying you need to improve your system to ensure that's no longer an opportunity.
 


Suggestion from Rhaver (Apart of the CGF) which is a very fair way of going about this situation.

A lot of websites miss the nonce aspect. This in turn creates an unfair environment and a major opportunity to rig events. Unless the user changes their client seed EVERY round this case is not fair. They will also have to in turn engage users to verify bets one by one to ensure their fairness. This isn't what anyone (Lets be realistic) does and leaves the vast majority of people open to being scammed. If an operator notices you are not changing your client seed EVERY bet they are able to change the outcome of rolls.

I think it's a bit too harsh to call it "fake" provably fair, as without a nonce it is still provably fair -- just perhaps suboptimal from a users point of view. But if you trust the client (e.g. you've audited a static version, or using some 3rd party client you trust) it's actually possibly better.


There have been a bunch of casinos though with "fake provably fair", the biggest offender I remember was the old 999dice which put a "betId" (instead of a nonce) in the preimage, which allowed them to 100% control the outcome. And then there's been dozens of sites with "fake" provably fair systems (pretty much 99% of all multiplayer gambling games that come out, they screw up the provably fair and it's not actually provably fair).


I would be trying to categorize sites (from best to worst):

* Trustless
* Provably fair  (follows best practices)
* Provably fair (warning: suboptimal, not practical for human verification)
* Not Provably Fair   (game design makes provably fair impractical)
* Not Provably Fair   (for no good reason)
* Fake Provably Fair  (claims to be provably fair, but isn't)


www.Primedice.com :: Founder :: Creators of Dicing
www.Stake.com :: Founder :: The #1 Bitcoin Casino
1537821514
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1537821514

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1537821514
Reply with quote  #2

1537821514
Report to moderator
1537821514
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1537821514

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1537821514
Reply with quote  #2

1537821514
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
Nelka4
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 270
Merit: 251



View Profile
October 26, 2017, 05:14:16 AM
 #2

Sounds fair, best of luck with helping improve Bitcoin. I'm really loving the whole initiative from the Gaming Foundation. You guys rock. Just don't get power hungry..
lrdeoliveira
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518
Merit: 253

CRYPTO NINJA!!!


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 05:21:18 AM
 #3

Sounds fair, best of luck with helping improve Bitcoin. I'm really loving the whole initiative from the Gaming Foundation. You guys rock. Just don't get power hungry..

Likewise. Who's currently on the board? Looking forward to seeing more from you guys.

[centre] Lend my signature space for free[/centre]
JackpotRacer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001


Racer and Lottery game are Closed


View Profile WWW
October 26, 2017, 05:21:25 AM
 #4

Very good idea and attitude! thats the way to go

Nelka4
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 270
Merit: 251



View Profile
October 26, 2017, 05:22:10 AM
 #5

Sounds fair, best of luck with helping improve Bitcoin. I'm really loving the whole initiative from the Gaming Foundation. You guys rock. Just don't get power hungry..

Likewise. Who's currently on the board? Looking forward to seeing more from you guys.

By the looks of it Stunna and Edward (Aengus?) are running it
lrdeoliveira
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518
Merit: 253

CRYPTO NINJA!!!


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 05:23:29 AM
 #6

Sounds fair, best of luck with helping improve Bitcoin. I'm really loving the whole initiative from the Gaming Foundation. You guys rock. Just don't get power hungry..

Likewise. Who's currently on the board? Looking forward to seeing more from you guys.

By the looks of it Stunna and Edward (Aengus?) are running it

It looks like Bustabit is also involved. The 4 (Primedice, Bustabit, Stake & Bustadice) biggest provably fair gaming sites...

[centre] Lend my signature space for free[/centre]
Aengus
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


Edward Miroslav - Primedice & Stake Founder


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 05:24:58 AM
 #7

Sounds fair, best of luck with helping improve Bitcoin. I'm really loving the whole initiative from the Gaming Foundation. You guys rock. Just don't get power hungry..

Likewise. Who's currently on the board? Looking forward to seeing more from you guys.

By the looks of it Stunna and Edward (Aengus?) are running it

It looks like Bustabit is also involved. The 4 (Primedice, Bustabit, Stake & Bustadice) biggest provably fair gaming sites...

Correct!

And thanks JackpotRacer! Looking forward to having your site inline with the fairness one day. I can help you with that if you like.

www.Primedice.com :: Founder :: Creators of Dicing
www.Stake.com :: Founder :: The #1 Bitcoin Casino
JackpotRacer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001


Racer and Lottery game are Closed


View Profile WWW
October 26, 2017, 05:44:29 AM
 #8

Sounds fair, best of luck with helping improve Bitcoin. I'm really loving the whole initiative from the Gaming Foundation. You guys rock. Just don't get power hungry..

Likewise. Who's currently on the board? Looking forward to seeing more from you guys.

By the looks of it Stunna and Edward (Aengus?) are running it

It looks like Bustabit is also involved. The 4 (Primedice, Bustabit, Stake & Bustadice) biggest provably fair gaming sites...

Correct!

And thanks JackpotRacer! Looking forward to having your site inline with the fairness one day. I can help you with that if you like.

@Aengus thx for the kind words and offer to help. I will for sure contact you to check us out and to help if we will need it

we are glad that finally someone is trying to take care of Provably Fair casinos

gapjustin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 143
Merit: 100


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 06:25:51 AM
 #9

I mean this is a pretty good idea but wouldn't having a client-side seed generator also fix the problem with getting a new hash each round? Because the client seed gets changed each round.

Aengus
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


Edward Miroslav - Primedice & Stake Founder


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 06:57:36 AM
 #10

I mean this is a pretty good idea but wouldn't having a client-side seed generator also fix the problem with getting a new hash each round? Because the client seed gets changed each round.

Not exactly as code can be injected/manipulated for individual users

www.Primedice.com :: Founder :: Creators of Dicing
www.Stake.com :: Founder :: The #1 Bitcoin Casino
4p0l4k4y
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 336
Merit: 100



View Profile
October 26, 2017, 07:05:22 AM
 #11

I never knew that there are some sites faking the provable fair script. What about freebitco.in I love thier website but this seems rigning a bell now why I am always getting loss to them.

gapjustin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 143
Merit: 100


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 10:37:31 AM
 #12

I mean this is a pretty good idea but wouldn't having a client-side seed generator also fix the problem with getting a new hash each round? Because the client seed gets changed each round.

Not exactly as code can be injected/manipulated for individual users

Unless ofcourse, the one managing the site & the one managing the actual bets are different entities :>

Zero_Cloo
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 57
Merit: 0


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 11:59:27 AM
 #13

You appear to have said "by all means" when you mean "by no means" in the op.
LuanX3
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 505



View Profile
October 26, 2017, 02:25:29 PM
 #14

This has been a long time coming. This should have been here for a long time. A board that would review provably fair system must be implemented since I also believe that 99% of all players do not even know how this works. Hence, they are ignorant of the fact that it should be like this. I also see a lot of casino sites that say they are provably fair and they place that logo on their site, but they don't even have a way to verify their bets.

This will be a great change to the crypto gambling scene!

.FORTUNE.JACK.
      ▄▄███████▄▄
   ▄████▀▀ ▄ ██████▄
  ████ ▄▄███ ████████
 █████▌▐███▌ ▀▄ ▀█████
███████▄██▀▀▀▀▄████████
█████▀▄▄▄▄█████████████
████▄▄▄▄ █████████████
 ██████▌ ███▀████████
  ███████▄▀▄████████
   ▀█████▀▀███████▀
      ▀▀██████▀▀
         
         █
...FortuneJack.com                                             
...THE BIGGEST BITCOIN GAMBLING SITE
       ▄▄█████████▄▄
    ▄█████████████████▄
  ▄█████████████████████▄
 ▄██
█████████▀███████████▄
██████████▀   ▀██████████
█████████▀       ▀█████████
████████           ████████
████████▄   ▄ ▄   ▄████████
██████████▀   ▀██████████
 ▀██
█████████████████████▀
  ▀██
███████████████████▀
    ▀█████████████████▀
       ▀▀█████████▀▀
#JACKMATE
WIN 1 BTC
▄█████████████████████████▄
███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
██████████▀█████▀██████████
███████▀░░▀░░░░░▀░░▀███████
██████▌░░░░░░░░░░░░░▐██████
██████░░░░██░░░██░░░░██████
█████▌░░░░▀▀░░░▀▀░░░░▐█████
██████▄░░▄▄▄░░░▄▄▄░░▄██████
████████▄▄███████▄▄████████

███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
▀█████████████████████████▀
piloder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966
Merit: 1006



View Profile
October 26, 2017, 03:23:17 PM
 #15

I never knew that there are some sites faking the provable fair script. What about freebitco.in I love thier website but this seems rigning a bell now why I am always getting loss to them.
If you are talking about their multiplier than you will never win any significant amount there because of high house edge (5%) usually bitcoin dice site only have 1% or even less than that H.E.

Thanks for coming up with this foundation, I haven't thought that site can detect the client seed, isn't that generated randomly on browser/client side  Huh Roll Eyes

.FORTUNE.JACK.
      ▄▄███████▄▄
   ▄████▀▀ ▄ ██████▄
  ████ ▄▄███ ████████
 █████▌▐███▌ ▀▄ ▀█████
███████▄██▀▀▀▀▄████████
█████▀▄▄▄▄█████████████
████▄▄▄▄ █████████████
 ██████▌ ███▀████████
  ███████▄▀▄████████
   ▀█████▀▀███████▀
      ▀▀██████▀▀
         
         █
...FortuneJack.com                                             
...THE BIGGEST BITCOIN GAMBLING SITE
       ▄▄█████████▄▄
    ▄█████████████████▄
  ▄█████████████████████▄
 ▄██
█████████▀███████████▄
██████████▀   ▀██████████
█████████▀       ▀█████████
████████           ████████
████████▄   ▄ ▄   ▄████████
██████████▀   ▀██████████
 ▀██
█████████████████████▀
  ▀██
███████████████████▀
    ▀█████████████████▀
       ▀▀█████████▀▀
#JACKMATE
WIN 1 BTC
▄█████████████████████████▄
███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
██████████▀█████▀██████████
███████▀░░▀░░░░░▀░░▀███████
██████▌░░░░░░░░░░░░░▐██████
██████░░░░██░░░██░░░░██████
█████▌░░░░▀▀░░░▀▀░░░░▐█████
██████▄░░▄▄▄░░░▄▄▄░░▄██████
████████▄▄███████▄▄████████

███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
▀█████████████████████████▀
Catmony
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854
Merit: 500


Varanida : Fair & Transparent Digital Ecosystem


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 06:05:15 PM
 #16

It looks like Bustabit is also involved. The 4 (Primedice, Bustabit, Stake & Bustadice) biggest provably fair gaming sites...
Yeah bustabit owner is one of the really genius guy in gambling world of crypto also quite helpful to others, I have seen him pointing out different bugs in gambling sites before. He and primedice/stake guys must be behind this great concept. Bustadice also runs on almost same script of bustabit and bustadice owner also have some ownership in it.


iBuilding A Better Interneti
━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

 
 █b
▐█=
║█
██                                         ¡▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄┌
██M                                  ╒▄▄▄▄█▀    ▂▂ ╙▀▀▆▄
██▌                                ╓, ,██╨      ▀▀▀    ╜▀█▌
███                                ▀▀██╙     ▄▄▄▄▄      ╓█L
█ █▌                            ▄▄▄▄█▀          └▀▀▀▀█Φ█▀"
█▌ █▄                            ██▀           ▄█▀
▐▌  ▀▌                       ▀▄██▀            ▄▀
▐█     ▂▂▂                ▄  ▄█▀           ▄▄▀
 █▌  ╙▀▀▀▀▀█▄         ▄   ███▀     ▁▂▃▄▄▄█▀▀
  █▄        █▌    █▄  ██▄█▀        ▔▔╙▀▐█
   █▄       █▌ ▀▀████▀▀▀               ▐▌
    ▀█     █▀                          ▐▌
     ╙█▄  ▄▌                        ╓█ ▐█
       └▀██  ╓▄▄µ╓▄▄µ            ,▄█▀┘  █▌    ▄▄ ╓▄▄µ
         ██▄█▀▀███▀▀█▄       ╓▄▄█▀▀      ▀█▄█▀▀▀██▄╙▀█▄▄
          ▀╙    ▀▀▀  ▀▀▀  ▀▀▀▀╙           `      "▀▀  └╙
You Can See Me Now, Hi :}
VARANIDA

 
 
 
 
               ▄██   ▄███▄
              ▄███████  ██
              ██    ▀████▀
             ██
  ▄▄  ▄▄█████████████▄▄  ▄▄
▄███████████████████████████▄
█████████████████████████████
▀███████    █████    ███████▀
  ▀█████    █████    █████▀
   ███████████████████████
    █████▄  ▀▀▀▀▀  ▄█████
     ▀█████▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▀
        ▀▀█████████▀▀
|Hello Again
GWhitePaperG
GAnn ThreadG
badjacks99
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854
Merit: 500



View Profile
October 26, 2017, 06:28:21 PM
 #17

 Nice! This is a great idea and one in my opinion that is long overdue. Not only does it prove legitimacy for more established casinos, I could also see if the detering new casinos that are not using the proper provably fair system. Really looking forward to this project, keep up the good work guys.

.next-generation social media service.
██   based on blockchain technology ██
                      ▄▄█▄ ▀▄▄
                   ▄███████  ███▄▄
               ▄█████▀▀ ████  ▀█████▄▄
           ▄▄█████▀    ▄ ▀███▄   ▀▀█████▄
       ▄▄█████▀       ██▄ ▀███▄      ▀▀█████▄
      ▐███▀▀        ▄█████  ████         ▀███▌
      ▐███         ████▀███▄ ▀███         ███▌
      ▐███        ████  ▀███▄ ▀███▄       ███▌
      ▐███      ▄███▀ ▄█  ███▌ ▐███▌      ███▌
      ▐███     ▄███▀ ████  ▀██▓  ████     ███▌
      ▐███    ████  ███▀  ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄████▄   ███▌
      ▐███   ████ ▄███▀ ▄██████████████▄  ███▌
      ▐██▀ ▄███▀ ▄███▒                    ███▌
      ▐█▀ ▄███▀ █████████████████████████████▌
         ████  ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
        ▀█████▄▄                    ▄▄█████▀
           ▀▀█████▄▄             ▄█████▀▀
               ▀▀█████▄▄     ▄▄████▀▀
                   ▀▀█████▄█████▀
                       ▀████▀
.

     ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄  ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄  ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄   ▄▄▄  ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
     ██▀▀▀▀▀▀███▀▀▀▀██ ▐██▀▀▀▀██ ▐██▀▀▀▀▀ ███▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀███▀▀▀▀███▀ ████▄ ███ ███▀▀▀▀▀
     ███▄▄▄▄ ███   ▐██▌▐██▄  ▐██ ▐██████  ███▄▄▄▄▄   ██▌    ▓██  █████▄███ ██▌ ▄▄▄▄▄
     ██▀▀▀▀  ███   ▐██▌▐███▀███▀ ▐██        ▀▀▀▀██▌  ██▌    ▓██  ███ █████ ██▌   ███
     ██▌     ▀████████ ▐██   ██▌ ▐███████░████████   ██▌   █████ ███  ▀███ ▀████████
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Telegram [EN]
Telegram [KOR]
Medium
Patatas
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302
Merit: 1020


Crypto-Games.net: Multiple coins, multiple games


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 07:11:43 PM
 #18

Nice initiate ! It again depends why would someone take your words seriously ? Would you be negotiating with the gambling websites to show those websites are legit thereby getting paid from them or this is just another quick money making gimmick ? Lots of possibilities.

Unless your estimation involves math and logic I wouldn't take your seriously.


▄▄▄████████▄▄▄
▄██████████████████▄
▄██████████████████████▄
██████████████████████████
████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
▀██████████████████████▀
▀██████████████████▀
▀▀▀████████▀▀▀
   ███████
██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
███████
BTC  ◉PLAY  ◉XMR  ◉DOGE  ◉BCH  ◉STRAT  ◉ETH  ◉GAS  ◉LTC  ◉DASH  ◉PPC
     ▄▄██████████████▄▄
  ▄██████████████████████▄        █████
▄██████████████████████████▄      █████
████ ▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄ ████     ▄██▀
████ █████ ██████ █████ ████    ▄██▀
████ █████ ██████ █████ ████    ██▀
████ █████ ██████ █████ ████    ██
████ ▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀▀▀▀ ████ ▄██████▄
████████████████████████████ ████████
███████▀            ▀███████ ▀██████▀
█████▀                ▀█████
▀██████████████████████████▀
  ▀▀████████████████████▀▀ 
✔️DICE           
✔️BLACKJACK
✔️PLINKO
✔️VIDEO POKER
✔️ROULETTE     
✔️LOTTO
game-protect
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 826
Merit: 504


Online Gaming Consumer Protection service


View Profile WWW
October 26, 2017, 09:16:18 PM
 #19

I appreciate your effort to call out sites which don't use proper provably fair methods, but I also suggest to disclose sites that false and misleading claim to have a valid license!

Because to play at a site with provably fair system but fake license will not help you much if they simply close your account and victims look for help from their fake licensor.

SyGambler
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344
Merit: 1139


AKA DrEdge


View Profile
October 26, 2017, 10:15:45 PM
 #20

the title at first made me wonder about what this will be , then I saw the other topic by Stunna
great move and hopefully it will spread awareness and help the community here , I guess some dice sites may start losing players like luckygames after their last cheat

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!