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Author Topic: Confused about 2x and the 1:1 coin ownership after fork  (Read 1800 times)
johnny508
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October 26, 2017, 08:48:12 AM
 #1

Im sorry as im sure this is answered but the more I read, the more confused I get with terms about splitting and replay tx's etc.

Can somebody help me understand the specific point of holding 1 btc and then having 1 btc and 1 btc2x after fork?

I understand that if I have 1 btc now and hold private key cold storage and dont transact for a few days around fork time.

But what I dont get is where the 1 btc2x is generated from?  Its not a new coin so its not pre-mined, right?

Is it basically down to me choosing to spend either the 1 btc or the 1 btc2x but not having ability to spend both of them?  This would seem to explain alot of the holes I think i have in my understanding.

After the fork, dont they have to become two seperate chains moving forward thus becoming a new altcoin?  Or am I missing something here that somehow wont turn btc2x and btc into 2 chains with 2 coin types after the fork happens?  Miners will be generating rewards on two chains causing generation of new coins on a new chain so i dont see how it would not be an altcoin after the fork occurs.

Is there a huge money risk here for a long-term btc holder that doesnt intend to stop holding?  I think the answer is no, not any more than usual volatile/high-risk of cryptocurrency.  Am I correct that I dont need to make a decision on my favored fork if Im just a long-term holder?  If some of my above understanding is right about the 1:1 coin holding then i think I simply would hold all my btc / btc2x and in 20 years, i could cashout one or the other from my 1 coin example (but not both).  Theres no decision timeline I need to worry about, right?
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October 26, 2017, 08:53:30 AM
 #2

Im sorry as im sure this is answered but the more I read, the more confused I get with terms about splitting and replay tx's etc.

Can somebody help me understand the specific point of holding 1 btc and then having 1 btc and 1 btc2x after fork?

I understand that if I have 1 btc now and hold private key cold storage and dont transact for a few days around fork time.

But what I dont get is where the 1 btc2x is generated from?  Its not a new coin so its not pre-mined, right?

Is it basically down to me choosing to spend either the 1 btc or the 1 btc2x but not having ability to spend both of them?  This would seem to explain alot of the holes I think i have in my understanding.

After the fork, dont they have to become two seperate chains moving forward thus becoming a new altcoin?  Or am I missing something here that somehow wont turn btc2x and btc into 2 chains with 2 coin types after the fork happens?  Miners will be generating rewards on two chains causing generation of new coins on a new chain so i dont see how it would not be an altcoin after the fork occurs.

Is there a huge money risk here for a long-term btc holder that doesnt intend to stop holding?  I think the answer is no, not any more than usual volatile/high-risk of cryptocurrency.  Am I correct that I dont need to make a decision on my favored fork if Im just a long-term holder?  If some of my above understanding is right about the 1:1 coin holding then i think I simply would hold all my btc / btc2x and in 20 years, i could cashout one or the other from my 1 coin example (but not both).  Theres no decision timeline I need to worry about, right?

You're asking a lot of questions here... I'll try to answer a couple of them, but i'd suggest you try to read up on the concept of hard forks and soft forks.
Basically, during a hard fork, part of the network starts to use incompatible consensus rules that are enforced starting at a certain block height.

In other words: up untill block x, both sides of the fork have exactly the same data in their public ledger, simply because part of the network chose to follow different rules starting at block x.
This means that, if you have an unspent output that funds an address controlled by your wallet, and the funding transaction is confirmed before block height x, the transaction is included in a block before the hardfork. This means that after block height x (after the hardfork), the unspent output is spendable on BOTH sides of the fork.

In other words: if you have 1 BTC pre-hardfork, you'll have 1 BTC and 1 alt-BTC you can BOTH spend post-fork.

However, if the group of people that caused the hardfork didn't implement replay protection, a transaction spending a pre-fork unspent output on one chain, can be replayed on the forked chain... There are ways around this problem, but that's a completely different question.

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October 26, 2017, 09:07:25 AM
 #3

Im sorry as im sure this is answered but the more I read, the more confused I get with terms about splitting and replay tx's etc.

Can somebody help me understand the specific point of holding 1 btc and then having 1 btc and 1 btc2x after fork?

I understand that if I have 1 btc now and hold private key cold storage and dont transact for a few days around fork time.

But what I dont get is where the 1 btc2x is generated from?  Its not a new coin so its not pre-mined, right?

Is it basically down to me choosing to spend either the 1 btc or the 1 btc2x but not having ability to spend both of them?  This would seem to explain alot of the holes I think i have in my understanding.

After the fork, dont they have to become two seperate chains moving forward thus becoming a new altcoin?  Or am I missing something here that somehow wont turn btc2x and btc into 2 chains with 2 coin types after the fork happens?  Miners will be generating rewards on two chains causing generation of new coins on a new chain so i dont see how it would not be an altcoin after the fork occurs.

Is there a huge money risk here for a long-term btc holder that doesnt intend to stop holding?  I think the answer is no, not any more than usual volatile/high-risk of cryptocurrency.  Am I correct that I dont need to make a decision on my favored fork if Im just a long-term holder?  If some of my above understanding is right about the 1:1 coin holding then i think I simply would hold all my btc / btc2x and in 20 years, i could cashout one or the other from my 1 coin example (but not both).  Theres no decision timeline I need to worry about, right?

I understand that you want more coins. But at least you should pick a side. The fork will help you earn another coin. But I would advise against acquiring coins of those who want to destroy Bitcoin. Bitcointalk is always posting the newest version of the Bitcoin client. Once Bitcoin cash and Bitcoin Gold succeeds. No one will be inclined to develop a newer version of the Bitcoin client. And bitcointalk has nothing to post when it comes new clients because it will cease to exist. FYI Bitcoin cash and Bitcoin Gold is about creating a new paypal which is notorious for freezing accounts. We don't want that to happen to Bitcoin Classic/Core.

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October 26, 2017, 11:31:18 AM
 #4

This is really confusing if you don't know what are the cool features of the new hard fork. Developers are doing what best could be beneficial for investors and everybody. Forks are designed to amend some features of bitcoin that are limited.

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October 26, 2017, 11:33:05 AM
 #5

Im sorry as im sure this is answered but the more I read, the more confused I get with terms about splitting and replay tx's etc.

Can somebody help me understand the specific point of holding 1 btc and then having 1 btc and 1 btc2x after fork?
There really isn't any "point" to it per se... some people don't like how BTC is now, and they want to "improve it". So they're implementing some changes and forking off... essentially, this will create an altcoin... it's possible, the new fork could become the stronger coin with more support in which case, BTC as it is now would like be considered the altcoin, and the new fork as "Bitcoin".


Quote
But what I dont get is where the 1 btc2x is generated from?  Its not a new coin so its not pre-mined, right?
Basically, they just copy the current Bitcoin chain up until Block X, then split off... magically creating copies of all existing BTC. You basically double the number of coins you have. NOTE: not necessarily double the value... just double the total number.... so if you had 1 btc, you end up with 2 coins (1 btc, 1 2x)


Quote
Is it basically down to me choosing to spend either the 1 btc or the 1 btc2x but not having ability to spend both of them?  This would seem to explain alot of the holes I think i have in my understanding.
No. You can definitely spend both.


Quote
After the fork, dont they have to become two seperate chains moving forward thus becoming a new altcoin?  Or am I missing something here that somehow wont turn btc2x and btc into 2 chains with 2 coin types after the fork happens?  Miners will be generating rewards on two chains causing generation of new coins on a new chain so i dont see how it would not be an altcoin after the fork occurs.
Yes... definitely 2 chains. It's a hard fork, they're changing the consensus rules. So we end up with two coins... Now, the real question is... which one will end up being considered the "altcoin"?


Quote
Is there a huge money risk here for a long-term btc holder that doesnt intend to stop holding?  I think the answer is no, not any more than usual volatile/high-risk of cryptocurrency.  Am I correct that I dont need to make a decision on my favored fork if Im just a long-term holder?  If some of my above understanding is right about the 1:1 coin holding then i think I simply would hold all my btc / btc2x and in 20 years, i could cashout one or the other from my 1 coin example (but not both).  Theres no decision timeline I need to worry about, right?
Well that depends... there are sort of three scenarios:

1. Bitcoin remains Bitcoin. 2X fails to get support and starts to die. In this scenario the value of the 2X coins will plummet as everyone dumps to get whatever they can before the coin becomes completely worthless.

2. 2X takes over as main "Bitcoin". Bitcoin support fades away and starts to die. In this scenario the value of Bitcoin will surely dump faster than scam ICO. You'll only have limited time to assess what is going on before you BTC is worthless.

3. Bitcoin and 2X both continue on with enough support to continue (a bit like Bitcoin Cash has done). The values will go up and down as speculators start guessing which coin is going to win, before things settle down and the world carries on as "normal"

If you really don't care, you can just hold both coins forever... and again, you CAN sell both.

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October 26, 2017, 03:24:31 PM
 #6

You will receive 1:1 coins on any given hardfork if you are holding the private keys yourself, but I will tell you what... I wouldn't count on any hardfork being a success that reaches an higher price than the original bitcoin blockchain BTC without unanimous consensus.

I think it's safe to keep selling the forked coins for more BTC, I don't see any fork winning any time soon, B2X included.

I see B2X graph looking like BCash: It will get a fake pump triggered by the bribed miners mining at a loss for a while, then once reality kicks in the hashrate will go down and coupled with all the whales that don't want the fork dumping massive amounts of B2X will force miners to stop playing around and mining the original blockchain again, hence the fork is resolved.

The requeriments for a proper hardfork aren't meet with B2X.

Of course, im not a wizard, so I guess the safest bet is to hold both, but as a holder you should pick a side and this side should be to defeat the corporate scammers (B2X), but again, if you don't want to do anything and don't care about Jeff Garzik becoming the main developer, then just hold it.
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October 26, 2017, 03:45:59 PM
 #7

You will receive 1:1 coins on any given hardfork if you are holding the private keys yourself, but I will tell you what... I wouldn't count on any hardfork being a success that reaches an higher price than the original bitcoin blockchain BTC without unanimous consensus.

I think it's safe to keep selling the forked coins for more BTC, I don't see any fork winning any time soon, B2X included.

I see B2X graph looking like BCash: It will get a fake pump triggered by the bribed miners mining at a loss for a while, then once reality kicks in the hashrate will go down and coupled with all the whales that don't want the fork dumping massive amounts of B2X will force miners to stop playing around and mining the original blockchain again, hence the fork is resolved.

The requeriments for a proper hardfork aren't meet with B2X.

Of course, im not a wizard, so I guess the safest bet is to hold both, but as a holder you should pick a side and this side should be to defeat the corporate scammers (B2X), but again, if you don't want to do anything and don't care about Jeff Garzik becoming the main developer, then just hold it.

Good post thanks,i ve been reading it could be not safe to transfer btc during fork,becouse btc can be send to 2x and remain unconfirmed.Miners may switch from one chain to another,looks like big chaos


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October 26, 2017, 03:52:59 PM
 #8

You will receive 1:1 coins on any given hardfork if you are holding the private keys yourself, but I will tell you what... I wouldn't count on any hardfork being a success that reaches an higher price than the original bitcoin blockchain BTC without unanimous consensus.

I think it's safe to keep selling the forked coins for more BTC, I don't see any fork winning any time soon, B2X included.

I see B2X graph looking like BCash: It will get a fake pump triggered by the bribed miners mining at a loss for a while, then once reality kicks in the hashrate will go down and coupled with all the whales that don't want the fork dumping massive amounts of B2X will force miners to stop playing around and mining the original blockchain again, hence the fork is resolved.

The requeriments for a proper hardfork aren't meet with B2X.

Of course, im not a wizard, so I guess the safest bet is to hold both, but as a holder you should pick a side and this side should be to defeat the corporate scammers (B2X), but again, if you don't want to do anything and don't care about Jeff Garzik becoming the main developer, then just hold it.

Good post thanks,i ve been reading it could be not safe to transfer btc during fork,becouse btc can be send to 2x and remain unconfirmed.Miners may switch from one chain to another,looks like big chaos

I don't really get what you're saying here. I think you misunderstood the concept of a replay attack. A replay attack can occur when you send a transaction on either of the chains around the tile the fork happens. By doing this you risk becoming the victim of a replay attack. This meaning your transaction can be rebroadcasted on the other chain. There's no need for chaos. If you keep your bitcoin nice and safe in your wallet you should be fine.
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October 26, 2017, 03:53:54 PM
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is it possible to sell our forked coin yet?

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October 26, 2017, 05:07:13 PM
 #10

is it possible to sell our forked coin yet?

If you are talking about the 2X coin, no, since it happens in November and so there are no coins.  You might be able to sell some type of future on it.  If you are talking about Bitcoin Cash, yes.  If you are talking about Bitcoin Gold, maybe, some exchanges seem to allow it.
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October 26, 2017, 11:10:35 PM
 #11

But what I dont get is where the 1 btc2x is generated from?  Its not a new coin so its not pre-mined, right?

It is a new coin. It's not pre-mined. The Bitcoin UTXO set will be copied, so everyone that holds BTC will receive B2X, much like a dividend to a stock holder. A hard fork of a blockchain creates a new currency out of thin air. Before the fork, there will be a circulating supply of about 16.6 million BTC. After the fork, there will be a circulating supply of 16.6 million BTC and 16.6 million B2X.

So, if we accept B2X as "Bitcoin" then we are effectively doubling the supposedly limited supply of bitcoins. This is one reason why a permanent split with disagreement over what constitutes "Bitcoin" is such a problem.
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October 27, 2017, 03:56:54 PM
 #12

You will receive 1:1 coins on any given hardfork if you are holding the private keys yourself, but I will tell you what... I wouldn't count on any hardfork being a success that reaches an higher price than the original bitcoin blockchain BTC without unanimous consensus.

I think it's safe to keep selling the forked coins for more BTC, I don't see any fork winning any time soon, B2X included.

I see B2X graph looking like BCash: It will get a fake pump triggered by the bribed miners mining at a loss for a while, then once reality kicks in the hashrate will go down and coupled with all the whales that don't want the fork dumping massive amounts of B2X will force miners to stop playing around and mining the original blockchain again, hence the fork is resolved.

The requeriments for a proper hardfork aren't meet with B2X.

Of course, im not a wizard, so I guess the safest bet is to hold both, but as a holder you should pick a side and this side should be to defeat the corporate scammers (B2X), but again, if you don't want to do anything and don't care about Jeff Garzik becoming the main developer, then just hold it.

Good post thanks,i ve been reading it could be not safe to transfer btc during fork,becouse btc can be send to 2x and remain unconfirmed.Miners may switch from one chain to another,looks like big chaos

I don't really get what you're saying here. I think you misunderstood the concept of a replay attack. A replay attack can occur when you send a transaction on either of the chains around the tile the fork happens. By doing this you risk becoming the victim of a replay attack. This meaning your transaction can be rebroadcasted on the other chain. There's no need for chaos. If you keep your bitcoin nice and safe in your wallet you should be fine.

But the problem is, we MUST dump the damn segwit2x coins. The only power we have as users are our full nodes and our force in the market. We must exert this force by killing forks with our dumps. The reason Jeff Garzik doesn't want to add proper replay protection is to precisely scare people away from instadumping the segwit2x coin to force miners back into the original chain. It's all part of the attack.
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October 27, 2017, 10:00:45 PM
 #13

Im sorry as im sure this is answered but the more I read, the more confused I get with terms about splitting and replay tx's etc.

Can somebody help me understand the specific point of holding 1 btc and then having 1 btc and 1 btc2x after fork?

I understand that if I have 1 btc now and hold private key cold storage and dont transact for a few days around fork time.

But what I dont get is where the 1 btc2x is generated from?  Its not a new coin so its not pre-mined, right?

Is it basically down to me choosing to spend either the 1 btc or the 1 btc2x but not having ability to spend both of them?  This would seem to explain alot of the holes I think i have in my understanding.

After the fork, dont they have to become two seperate chains moving forward thus becoming a new altcoin?  Or am I missing something here that somehow wont turn btc2x and btc into 2 chains with 2 coin types after the fork happens?  Miners will be generating rewards on two chains causing generation of new coins on a new chain so i dont see how it would not be an altcoin after the fork occurs.

Is there a huge money risk here for a long-term btc holder that doesnt intend to stop holding?  I think the answer is no, not any more than usual volatile/high-risk of cryptocurrency.  Am I correct that I dont need to make a decision on my favored fork if Im just a long-term holder?  If some of my above understanding is right about the 1:1 coin holding then i think I simply would hold all my btc / btc2x and in 20 years, i could cashout one or the other from my 1 coin example (but not both).  Theres no decision timeline I need to worry about, right?

Yes the bitcoin will split again in November. So if you are holding one bitcoin you will get 1 b2x. It will be distributed to all bitcoin holders on the 1:1 basis. To cashout from btc2x you need a compatible wallet, there is no one at the moment. Also the b2x has no replay protection, so don't send any bicoins or b2x on that day, because when you send btc you are also sending b2x, this is a little bit tricky. As a newbie you should just wait and see what other holders are doing.

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October 27, 2017, 10:11:36 PM
 #14

You are wrong actually 2x is a new coin the 2x coin already trading in hitbtc ,
but those are future markets only.
Yes you get your ammout of 2x coins if and only if you hold your coin until the snapshot block.
Keep a eye on the announcement section you will find every info there.
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October 27, 2017, 10:20:48 PM
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But the problem is, we MUST dump the damn segwit2x coins. The only power we have as users are our full nodes and our force in the market. We must exert this force by killing forks with our dumps.

Meh. You're expecting people to put ideology before their finances. That's not a rational expectation. I noticed that the everyone who was promoting BIP148 is now promoting NO2X. Given how little visible support BIP148 had (nodes, major economic nodes, miners), I believe that both sides are just very loud minorities, at least with regard to what users want.

Given the S-curve of technology adoption, most users don't even understand Bitcoin. It's absurd to think that most users therefore have a strong opinion about contentious forks and will automatically dump the 2X coins. The culture of hodling is strong, especially considering that most people make terrible traders.

I think that most people would hodl both coins given the chance. And even though I'm opposed to 2X, I would never ideologically dump coins. My primary life goal right now is to accumulate BTC; I'm not going to risk being on the wrong side of the market. I'm a trader/investor, not a warrior or a shill.

The reason Jeff Garzik doesn't want to add proper replay protection is to precisely scare people away from instadumping the segwit2x coin to force miners back into the original chain. It's all part of the attack.

I think it's because they need to leverage SPV users in order for the fork to be relevant. Web wallets and SPV wallets like blockchain.info represent a lot of users on the network.
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October 27, 2017, 11:26:12 PM
 #16

Ive so far absorbed about half the responses and will do the rest tonight but thank you guys!!! I am beginning to fill the holes of my understanding and now see why a new coin can be generated and why both couns are spendable. 

Honestly, im leaning towards holding both coin types for a while as it seems like the safest bet for a novice like me who doesnt feel comfortable gambling on one or the other.  I randomly bought into btc on a gut feeling at around 80 bucks and told myself to hold it no matter ehat the price does until either im rich or my investment goes belly up.  I have to say the sane approach is the only one i feel comfortable with at this point.

Can i ask what side u guys are choosing to go with for thise who strongly favor one chain over the other?

Also, one more question but do you guys know if electrum made any announcements about handling this?  Since two chains will exist and i will have teo coin type private keys, i assume each wallet will roll out some way to deal with this?  Or will we see a new 2x wallet where you cn import btc priv keys to hold your 2x coins?

In the immediate term, i use electrum to store a few coins and have a cold storage paper wallet of priv keys for most of my couns in bank box.  Would you guys think it wise to clear out my electrum wallet to hold all paper priv keys til the dust settles?  Anybody have an example of a wallet that speaks to their dealing with this hard fork?  Ive seen alot from coinbase but i dint use that type of wallet.  Does core wallet have documentation on exactly what steps to take after fork to holdand use the 2x coins?

Thanks again all - i was misunderstanding alit of stuff before you set me straight.

I always thought forks were only to be worried about for devs and for miners to vote via concensus but see that your average end user should be well versed in this sort of thing as well
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October 27, 2017, 11:39:02 PM
 #17

https://www.bitsonline.com/bitcoin-wallet-ready-hard-fork-august/


Somebody sent me this article which also helped clarify the scenarios that had me confused about prices and double coin holdings etc - anybody have any other articles along same lines that help the btc simpleytons understand the scenarios?
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October 28, 2017, 01:05:43 AM
 #18

Ive so far absorbed about half the responses and will do the rest tonight but thank you guys!!! I am beginning to fill the holes of my understanding and now see why a new coin can be generated and why both couns are spendable.  

Honestly, im leaning towards holding both coin types for a while as it seems like the safest bet for a novice like me who doesnt feel comfortable gambling on one or the other.  I randomly bought into btc on a gut feeling at around 80 bucks and told myself to hold it no matter ehat the price does until either im rich or my investment goes belly up.  I have to say the sane approach is the only one i feel comfortable with at this point.

Can i ask what side u guys are choosing to go with for thise who strongly favor one chain over the other?

I'm choosing to hold both. If miners follow through and switch chains, then block time on the legacy chain could become untenable; we could be forced to change POW in the worst case scenario. At the same time, 2X is rightfully viewed as a corporate takeover attempt of the protocol, and I think a lot of bitcoiners would dump it because of that.

I'm not confident enough in the outcomes to bet on any one contingency. In theory, I would like to dump the B2X coins, but I can't risk being wrong and killing my portfolio's value because of it. I can live with a dip in dollar value. I can't live with losing BTC value if B2X emerges victorious from this.

Also, one more question but do you guys know if electrum made any announcements about handling this?  Since two chains will exist and i will have teo coin type private keys, i assume each wallet will roll out some way to deal with this?  Or will we see a new 2x wallet where you cn import btc priv keys to hold your 2x coins?

Both chains would be compatible with Electrum. Supposedly the latest version of Electrum can detect forks among servers, and will prompt you to choose which chain you want to transact on. I haven't read into the details too much, though.

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October 28, 2017, 04:14:17 AM
 #19

Ive so far absorbed about half the responses and will do the rest tonight but thank you guys!!! I am beginning to fill the holes of my understanding and now see why a new coin can be generated and why both couns are spendable.  

Honestly, im leaning towards holding both coin types for a while as it seems like the safest bet for a novice like me who doesnt feel comfortable gambling on one or the other.  I randomly bought into btc on a gut feeling at around 80 bucks and told myself to hold it no matter ehat the price does until either im rich or my investment goes belly up.  I have to say the sane approach is the only one i feel comfortable with at this point.

Can i ask what side u guys are choosing to go with for thise who strongly favor one chain over the other?

I'm choosing to hold both. If miners follow through and switch chains, then block time on the legacy chain could become untenable; we could be forced to change POW in the worst case scenario. At the same time, 2X is rightfully viewed as a corporate takeover attempt of the protocol, and I think a lot of bitcoiners would dump it because of that.

I'm not confident enough in the outcomes to bet on any one contingency. In theory, I would like to dump the B2X coins, but I can't risk being wrong and killing my portfolio's value because of it. I can live with a dip in dollar value. I can't live with losing BTC value if B2X emerges victorious from this.

Also, one more question but do you guys know if electrum made any announcements about handling this?  Since two chains will exist and i will have teo coin type private keys, i assume each wallet will roll out some way to deal with this?  Or will we see a new 2x wallet where you cn import btc priv keys to hold your 2x coins?

Both chains would be compatible with Electrum. Supposedly the latest version of Electrum can detect forks among servers, and will prompt you to choose which chain you want to transact on. I haven't read into the details too much, though.

so keeping the funds in Electrum is safe mate?
or shud i keep them in blockchain.info?
I want both the coins to be accessible for myself.
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October 30, 2017, 01:22:45 PM
 #20

Segwit 2x will be activated in november by majority of miners who had already signed the NYA that it would be activated within six months.Earlier,there was around 95% of miners support.So,it was considered that segwit 2x would be a success.But now,F2Pool has withdrawn its support and now it has 85% of miners support.

If segwit 2x succeeds in getting more support,then it would replace the bitcoin and there would be no air drop and no free coins.In such a case,surely bitcoin price would skyrocket.

If segwit 2x fails to get more support,then there will be a split in the chain and free coins would be available along with bitcoin.

Either you would get bitcoin as well as free coin otherwise,you would get only bitcoin but its price would trigger very high.


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