I have seen the light

[webcoinx]

still dark in here...

until btc goes up to $500/btc it is still daaaaaaaaark

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[Crypt_Current]

Being rare and useful gives something value.

That's a given, though how much?  And how much of that value is convention & faith?

That depends on the usefulness and the rarity.

That is however not the question here. The above clearly shows 'backing' is unnecessary. Bitcoin backs itself.

Are you saying Bitcoin's value is due to its rarity & usefulness?  In that case, i'll release Bitcoin V2.0 -- identical to Bitcoin in every respect, but with just half the coins.  

Go ahead.  You'll be in viral competition with the established status quo -- Bitcoin.  Good luck with that.

[Crypt_Current]

Are you saying Bitcoin's value is due to its rarity & usefulness?

If no one else is, I am.  Hell even if some or every one else is, I still am.  This is exactly what makes it valuable:  the unique combination of scarcity and utility that was heretofore unprecedented.  It's a monumental achievement of humanity -- presently highly undervalued.

[bassclef]

This is exactly what makes it valuable:  the unique combination of scarcity and utility that was heretofore unprecedented.

Scarcity and utility coming at a time when the downfalls of fiat currency are becoming glaringly clear. Satoshi got the timing right too.

[wachtwoord]

This is exactly what makes it valuable:  the unique combination of scarcity and utility that was heretofore unprecedented.

Scarcity and utility coming at a time when the downfalls of fiat currency are becoming glaringly clear. Satoshi got the timing right too.

Good ideas always need the right timing to come to fruition.

But we all seem to be in total agreement

[Bitcoin BEAR]

Okay, I was just thinking about bitcoins and how amazing they are. Then I realized that it is inevitable for the price of bitcoins to go up over time, because as each person decides they will accept bitcoins the overall network effect increases. As the population of the world is increasing, so too must the price of bitcoins. I look forward to the amazing world we will build together using this wonderful technology.

You must be crazy. There is no assurance that as people learn about bitcoin they will actually start using it. For many people bitcoins are just too hard to use. It seems like there are plenty of people who get all gung-ho for a little bit, but then they get bored and leave bitcoins behind. Bitcoins are inflating at over 10% a year right now, clearly the price is going to go down in the short term.

...As two are one, so am I! 

[Peter Lambert]

You must be crazy. There is no assurance that as people learn about bitcoin they will actually start using it. For many people bitcoins are just too hard to use. It seems like there are plenty of people who get all gung-ho for a little bit, but then they get bored and leave bitcoins behind. Bitcoins are inflating at over 10% a year right now, clearly the price is going to go down in the short term.

Bitcoin is like a drug, once you get a taste you can't give it up.

^ but what is bitcoin backed by 

Bitcoin is backed by the people around the world who are willing to pay money or render services in exchange for bitcoins.

[crumbs]

Are you saying Bitcoin's value is due to its rarity & usefulness?

If no one else is, I am.  Hell even if some or every one else is, I still am.  This is exactly what makes it valuable:  the unique combination of scarcity and utility that was heretofore unprecedented.  It's a monumental achievement of humanity -- presently highly undervalued.

You've been around this forum for a bit, so i'm sure this conversation happened more times than you can shake a stick at.  But i''ll bite: You're talking about potential, not current, usefulness -- am i right?  Because right now, if i don't need to gamble or buy from SR, my fiat does just fine, while Bitcoin ... well, i can't even gas up my car with it.  As far as potential usefulness, I suggest you get behind my Bitcoin V2.0 -- I'll let you in on the ground floor & toss you a few coins.  
Oh, and you can mine it while the difficulty's still low (sorry, old Bitcoin -- you had your day in the sun).  My 2.0 is no different from bitcoin, other than lower total coin count (+1 for RARITY), so it's potential usefulness is no different from Bitcoin V1.0.  

So, is it rarity & usefulness that gives Bitcoin value, or could it be ... something else?

[wachtwoord]

Okay, this conversation has indeed happened many times so I'm going to provide you with some reading material instead because Erik Voorhees has worded it all quite nicely.

Firstly, Bitcoin  - The Libertarian Introduction (April 11th, 2012): http://evoorhees.blogspot.nl/2012/04/bitcoin-libertarian-introduction.html
Secondly, Bitcoin 2013 – The Role of Bitcoin as Money (May 23rd, 2013): http://evoorhees.blogspot.nl/2013/05/bitcoin-2013-role-of-bitcoin-as-money.html

Please continue the discussion after reading both of those

[Peter Lambert]

You've been around this forum for a bit, so i'm sure this conversation happened more times than you can shake a stick at.  But i''ll bite: You're talking about potential, not current, usefulness -- am i right?  Because right now, if i don't need to gamble or buy from SR, my fiat does just fine, while Bitcoin ... well, i can't even gas up my car with it.  As far as potential usefulness, I suggest you get behind my Bitcoin V2.0 -- I'll let you in on the ground floor & toss you a few coins.  
Oh, and you can mine it while the difficulty's still low (sorry, old Bitcoin -- you had your day in the sun).  My 2.0 is no different from bitcoin, other than lower total coin count (+1 for RARITY), so it's potential usefulness is no different from Bitcoin V1.0.  

So, is it rarity & usefulness that gives Bitcoin value, or could it be ... something else?

Last week I ran a poetry contest. The entries came from all over the world (I can only assume, I did not actually ask where anybody was from). At the end of the contest I was able to send a little bit of money to about ten different people I had never met before and all I had to identify them was a single string of characters, the money was sent instantly for an a "generous" fee of the equivalent of 0.1 USD. You don't see how bitcoins are useful? Maybe I could have sent them cash in the mail ... 0.41 usd each for the postage, but wait I don't have addresses for them, I could ask for their mailing address, but no, they would not want to give me (an anonymous guy on the internet) that information, so my giveaway would have failed.

[crumbs]

Okay, this conversation has indeed happened many times so I'm going to provide you with some reading material instead because Erik Voorhees has worded it all quite nicely.

Firstly, Bitcoin  - The Libertarian Introduction (April 11th, 2012): http://evoorhees.blogspot.nl/2012/04/bitcoin-libertarian-introduction.html
Secondly, Bitcoin 2013 – The Role of Bitcoin as Money (May 23rd, 2013): http://evoorhees.blogspot.nl/2013/05/bitcoin-2013-role-of-bitcoin-as-money.html

Please continue the discussion after reading both of those

Listen, how about we cut to the chase:  I'll paste a couple of links to counter your couple of links, and then our links can take the conversation from there, deal?

[bitcoinbear]

Okay, I was just thinking about bitcoins and how amazing they are. Then I realized that it is inevitable for the price of bitcoins to go up over time, because as each person decides they will accept bitcoins the overall network effect increases. As the population of the world is increasing, so too must the price of bitcoins. I look forward to the amazing world we will build together using this wonderful technology.

You must be crazy. There is no assurance that as people learn about bitcoin they will actually start using it. For many people bitcoins are just too hard to use. It seems like there are plenty of people who get all gung-ho for a little bit, but then they get bored and leave bitcoins behind. Bitcoins are inflating at over 10% a year right now, clearly the price is going to go down in the short term.

...As two are one, so am I! 

Oh, Hi other Bitcoin Bear, it is nice to see another bear around here

You must be crazy. There is no assurance that as people learn about bitcoin they will actually start using it. For many people bitcoins are just too hard to use. It seems like there are plenty of people who get all gung-ho for a little bit, but then they get bored and leave bitcoins behind. Bitcoins are inflating at over 10% a year right now, clearly the price is going to go down in the short term.

Bitcoin is like a drug, once you get a taste you can't give it up.

I admit once you hear of bitcoins you cannot unlearn of them, but that does not mean that everybody who looks into bitcoins will continue using them forever. There will be some drop off once the new people have spent all their disposable income and the older users start cashing out to live their life of luxury.

Bitcoins would be able to maintain a price if there was an actual economy utilizing them. I have not been impressed by any of the sites selling stuff for bitcoins, most are very unprofessional. There is still much growing to do to have bitcoin be a viable currency.

[MAbtc]

Last week I ran a poetry contest. The entries came from all over the world (I can only assume, I did not actually ask where anybody was from). At the end of the contest I was able to send a little bit of money to about ten different people I had never met before and all I had to identify them was a single string of characters, the money was sent instantly for an a "generous" fee of the equivalent of 0.1 USD. You don't see how bitcoins are useful? Maybe I could have sent them cash in the mail ... 0.41 usd each for the postage, but wait I don't have addresses for them, I could ask for their mailing address, but no, they would not want to give me (an anonymous guy on the internet) that information, so my giveaway would have failed.

You could have instantly sent the giveaways via Paypal completely free. All they need to do is provide you with a throwaway email.

[crumbs]

You've been around this forum for a bit, so i'm sure this conversation happened more times than you can shake a stick at.  But i''ll bite: You're talking about potential, not current, usefulness -- am i right?  Because right now, if i don't need to gamble or buy from SR, my fiat does just fine, while Bitcoin ... well, i can't even gas up my car with it.  As far as potential usefulness, I suggest you get behind my Bitcoin V2.0 -- I'll let you in on the ground floor & toss you a few coins.  
Oh, and you can mine it while the difficulty's still low (sorry, old Bitcoin -- you had your day in the sun).  My 2.0 is no different from bitcoin, other than lower total coin count (+1 for RARITY), so it's potential usefulness is no different from Bitcoin V1.0.  

So, is it rarity & usefulness that gives Bitcoin value, or could it be ... something else?

Last week I ran a poetry contest. The entries came from all over the world (I can only assume, I did not actually ask where anybody was from). At the end of the contest I was able to send a little bit of money to about ten different people I had never met before and all I had to identify them was a single string of characters, the money was sent instantly for an a "generous" fee of the equivalent of 0.1 USD. You don't see how bitcoins are useful? Maybe I could have sent them cash in the mail ... 0.41 usd each for the postage, but wait I don't have addresses for them, I could ask for their mailing address, but no, they would not want to give me (an anonymous guy on the internet) that information, so my giveaway would have failed.

My immediate question is:  What in the world will those people do with Bitcoin?  
I know decent God-fearin' American patriots would rather burn the American flag than take part in a poetry contest, but you must have had some real live Al-Qaeda type international terrorists!  I mean, all of these people had Bitcoin addys & used Bitcoin already?  And they lived all around the world?  You're pulling my leg!  Not a single one of them waxed poetically "[TL;DR] WTF is Bitcoin"?  Amazing.
But let's assume these folks had Bitcoin wallets & knew how to use them ( having texted "BRB, wallet  synching" to their respective muses, putting poesy distillation on hold), where in the world will they spend those tips?!  

[Peter Lambert]

You could have instantly sent the giveaways via Paypal completely free. All they need to do is provide you with a throwaway email.

From what people around here say, PayPal is the devil.

Bitcoins would be able to maintain a price if there was an actual economy utilizing them. I have not been impressed by any of the sites selling stuff for bitcoins, most are very unprofessional. There is still much growing to do to have bitcoin be a viable currency.

I don't think there really needs to be an "economy" built around bitcoin for it to continue rising. There are clearly use cases already  in place, like how S.MG on MPEx just raised the equivalent of a million dollars in their IPO. Bitcoin can do just fine serving the tech savvy and the financiers of the world.

[Peter Lambert]

Last week I ran a poetry contest. The entries came from all over the world (I can only assume, I did not actually ask where anybody was from). At the end of the contest I was able to send a little bit of money to about ten different people I had never met before and all I had to identify them was a single string of characters, the money was sent instantly for an a "generous" fee of the equivalent of 0.1 USD. You don't see how bitcoins are useful? Maybe I could have sent them cash in the mail ... 0.41 usd each for the postage, but wait I don't have addresses for them, I could ask for their mailing address, but no, they would not want to give me (an anonymous guy on the internet) that information, so my giveaway would have failed.

My immediate question is:  What in the world will those people do with Bitcoin?  
I know decent God-fearin' American patriots would rather burn the American flag than take part in a poetry contest, but you must have had some real live Al-Qaeda type international terrorists!  I mean, all of these people had Bitcoin addys & used Bitcoin already?  And they lived all around the world?  You're pulling my leg!  Not a single one of them waxed poetically "[TL;DR] WTF is Bitcoin"?  Amazing.
But let's assume these folks had Bitcoin wallets & knew how to use them ( having texted "BRB, wallet  synching" to their respective muses, putting poesy distillation on hold), where in the world will they spend those tips?!  

I have no idea what they are going to use the money for, you could ask them? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=219714.0

As part of submitting poems they were asked to provide a bitcoin address, so it looks like all of them had bitcoin address at hand and easily accessible. And why not? Even if you use a paper wallet it does not hurt to have the bitcoin address sitting in lots of places so you can hand it out to anybody who asks. I didn't have anybody asking what a bitcoin is, but being on the bitcoin forum if they had not gotten that far they would not have found my poetry contest either.

[lucas.sev]

Oh so the contest was on BITCOIN forum, I like how you excluded that from your original post.

[Peter Lambert]

Oh so the contest was on BITCOIN forum, I like how you excluded that from your original post.

I didn't think it really mattered; I was not making a point about the contest, I was saying how it was easy, quick, and cheap to send a bunch of payments simultaneously to diverse recipients.

[crumbs]

Oh so the contest was on BITCOIN forum, I like how you excluded that from your original post.

I didn't think it really mattered; I was not making a point about the contest, I was saying how it was easy, quick, and cheap to send a bunch of payments simultaneously to diverse recipients.

Of course it matters!  You told me about a seamless transfer of funds using Bitcoin, and you failed to mention that this happened *on a Bitcoin forum*?!  In that case, you've constructed the closest thing to a truism that doesn't quite make it into the definition:  Bitcoin users find using Bitcoin convenient.  Can argue with that too, but i doubt i'd win -- this *is* a Bitcoin forum.

Edit:  Almost mised your use of "diverse."  Diverse?  you've dealt with creatures as weird & specialized as aardvarks -- us, the Bitcoin users!

[lucas.sev]

Oh so the contest was on BITCOIN forum, I like how you excluded that from your original post.

I didn't think it really mattered; I was not making a point about the contest, I was saying how it was easy, quick, and cheap to send a bunch of payments simultaneously to diverse recipients.

Paypal has no fee though and funds appear instantly and also participants can easily spend them, so why bitcoin was better FOR THIS PARTICULAR PURPOSE?