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Author Topic: America is about to hit the toilet and probably with most of the world.  (Read 4775 times)
MindFunk
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June 27, 2011, 09:12:54 PM
 #21

48 percent of Americans say another great depression is likely? Hmmm... 48 percent of Americans also don't believe in evolution... Jus sayin'

+1
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June 27, 2011, 09:21:18 PM
 #22

Assuming this, like most uneducated attempts at predicting America's economic future, are wrong, I don't think there will be need for bitcoin, gold, oil, or any other 'safe haven' - the dollar will do just fine.
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June 27, 2011, 09:22:41 PM
 #23

Atlas - I agree that we have difficult times ahead, but don't you realize that reading all the doomsday shit only makes you more paranoid? Do you really feel like you are one of the few that sees things as they are and everyone else is asleep. You are Neo?

What's always got to me is that the [edit: lead up to the] crash of 2008 was never reported in the popular press, probably due to normalcy bias. And that crash was seismic. And they only papered over the cracks, didn't they? And half the alternative media are predicting something dire coming? And they're not all crazies. So that's why I allow myself to become slightly paranoid, just in case.
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June 27, 2011, 10:04:57 PM
 #24


What's always got to me is that the crash of 2008 was never reported in the popular press, probably due to normalcy bias.

What do you mean it wasn't reported?
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June 27, 2011, 10:11:09 PM
 #25

Heres a view into the depression world.  Read the posts, alot of desperation from young and old people alike.

http://www.homelessforums.org/forumdisplay.php?s=9a692229f4edde18d920b2d2b05042f6&f=3
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June 27, 2011, 10:18:36 PM
 #26


What's always got to me is that the crash of 2008 was never reported in the popular press, probably due to normalcy bias.

What do you mean it wasn't reported?

lol sorry. I meant the lead up to it was never reported. When the banks started crashing it was a shock to everyone, no?
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June 27, 2011, 10:20:07 PM
 #27

And the solution for our problem:

30 MILLION PRODUCTIVE JOBS TO REBUILD US INFRASTRUCTURE, INDUSTRY AND
AGRICULTURE: THE PROGRAM TO END THE ECONOMIC DEPRESSION
by Webster G. Tarpley, www.tarpley.net
November 14, 2009  {Although this still clearly applies to our present situation}
The US and the world are gripped by a deepening economic depression. There is no recovery and no automatic business
cycle which will revive the economy. This bottomless depression will worsen until policies are reformed. The depression
results from deregulated and globalized financial speculation, especially the $1.5 quadrillion world derivatives bubble.
The US industrial base has been gutted, and the US standard of living has fallen by almost two thirds over the last four
decades. We must reverse this trend of speculation, de-industrialization, and immiseration. Current policy bails out
bankers, but harms working people, industrial producers, farmers, and small business. We must defend civil society and
democratic institutions from the effects of high unemployment and economic breakdown. We therefore demand:
1. Measures to reduce speculation and minimize the burden of fictitious capital: End all bailouts of banks and
financial institutions. Claw back the TARP and other public money given or lent to financiers. Abolish the notion of too
big to fail; JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Citibank, Wells Fargo and other Wall Street zombie banks are insolvent and must
be seized by the FDIC for chapter 7 liquidation, with derivatives eliminated by triage. Re-institute the Glass-Steagall
firewall to separate banks, brokerages, and insurance. Ban credit default swaps and adjustable rate mortgages. To generate
revenue and discourage speculation, levy a 1% Tobin tax (securities transfer tax or trading tax) on all financial
transactions including derivatives (futures, options, indices, and over the counter derivatives), stocks, bonds, foreign
exchange, and commodities, especially program trading, high-frequency trading, and flash trading. Set up a 15% reserve
requirement for all OTC derivatives. Use Tobin tax revenue and a revived corporate income tax to provide immediate tax
relief to individuals, families, the self-employed, and small business by increasing personal exemptions and standard
deductions. Stop all foreclosures on primary residences, businesses, and farms for five years or the duration of the
depression, whichever lasts longer. Set a 10% maximum rate of interest on credit cards and payday loans. Re-regulate
commodities markets with 100% margin requirements, position limits, and anti-speculation protections for hedgers and
end users to prevent oil and gasoline price spikes. Enforce labor laws and anti-trust laws against monopolies and cartels.
Restore individual chapter 11.
2. Measures to nationalize the Federal Reserve, cut federal borrowing, and provide 0% federal credit for
production: Seize the Federal Reserve and bring it under the US Treasury as the National Bank of the United States, no
longer the preserve of unelected and unaccountable cliques of incompetent and predatory bankers. The size of the money
supply, interest rates, and approved types of lending must be determined by public laws passed and debated openly,
passed by the congress and signed by the president. Stop US government borrowing from zombie banks and foreigners --
let the US government function as its own bank. Reverse current policy by instituting 0% federal LENDING with
preferential treatment for tangible physical production and manufacturing of goods and commodities, to include industry,
agriculture, construction, mining, energy production, transportation, infrastructure building, public works, and scientific
research, but not financial services and speculation. Issue successive tranches of $1 trillion as needed to create 30 million
union-wage productive jobs and attain full employment for the first time since 1945, reversing the secular decline in the
US standard of living. Provide 0% credit to reconvert idle auto and other plants and re-hire unemployed workers to build
modern rail, mass transit, farm tractors, and aerospace equipment, including for export. Extend 0% federal credit for
production to small businesses like auto and electronics repair shops, dry cleaners, restaurants, tailors, family farms, taxis,
and trucking. Maintain commercial credit for retail stores. Create an unlimited rediscount guarantee by the National Bank
for public works projects to provide cash to local banks for bills of exchange pertaining to infrastructure and public works.
Repatriate the foreign dollar overhang by encouraging China, Japan, and other dollar holders to place orders for US-made
capital goods and modern hospitals. Revive the US Export-Import Bank. Set up a 10% tariff to protect domestic re-
industrialization. Nationalize and operate GM, Chrysler, CIT, and other needed but insolvent firms as a permanent public
sector. Maintain Amtrak and USPS.
3. Measures to re-industrialize, build infrastructure, develop science drivers, create jobs, and restore a high-wage
economy: state and local governments and special government agencies modeled on the Tennessee Valley Authority will
be prime contractors for an ambitious program of infrastructure and public works subcontracted to the private sector. To
deal with collapsing US infrastructure, modernize the US electrical grid and provide low-cost energy with 100 fourth
generation, pebble bed, high temperature reactors of 1,000 to 2,000 megawatts each. Rebuild the rail system with 50,000
miles of ultra-modern maglev Amtrak rail reaching into every state. Rebuild the entire interstate highway system to 21st
century standards. Rebuild drinking water and waste water systems nationwide. Promote canal building and irrigation. For
health care, build 1,000 500-bed modern hospitals to meet the minimum Hill-Burton standards of 1946. Train 250,000
doctors over the next decade. The Davis-Bacon Act will mandate union pay scales for all projects. For the farm sector,
provide a debt freeze for the duration of the crisis, 0% federal credit for working capital and capital improvements, a ban
on foreclosures, and federal price supports at 110% of parity across the board, with farm surpluses being used for a new
Food for Peace program to stop world famine and genocide. Working with other interested nations, invest $100 billion
each in: biomedical research to cure dread diseases; high energy physics (including lasers) to develop fusion power and
beyond; and a multi-decade NASA program of moon-Mars manned exploration, permanent colonization, and industrial
production. These science drivers will provide the technological spin-offs to modernize the entire US economy in the
same way that the NASA moon shot gave us microchips and computers in the 1960s. These steps will expand and upgrade
the national stock of capital goods and enhance the real productivity of US labor. Return the federal budget and foreign
trade to surplus in 5 years or less.
4. Measures to defend and expand the social safety net: Restore all cuts; full funding at improved levels for Social
Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, jobless benefits, WIC, Head Start, and related programs. Offer Medicare for
All to anyone under 65 who wants it at $100 per person per month, with reduced rates for families, students, and the
unemployed. Pay for this with Tobin tax revenues and TARP clawback, and by ending the Iraq and Afghan wars. Seek to
raise life expectancy by five years for starters. No rationing or death panels; savings can come only by finding cures.
Quickly reach a $15 per hour living wage. Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act and affirm the right to organize. Pass card check to
promote collective bargaining.
5. Measures to re-launch world trade and promote world recovery: Create a new world monetary system including
the euro, the yen, the dollar, and the ruble, plus emerging Arab and Latin American regional currencies, with fixed
exchange rates and narrow bands of fluctuation enforced by participating governments. Institute clearing and gold
settlement among member states. Replace the IMF with a Multilateral Development Bank to finance world trade and
infrastructure. The goal of the system must be to re-launch world trade through exports of high-technology capital goods,
especially to sub-Saharan Africa, south Asia, and the poorer parts of Latin America. Promote a world Marshall Plan of
great projects of world infrastructure, including: a Middle East reconstruction and development program; plans for the
Ganges-Bramaputra, Indus, Mekong, Amazon, and Nile-Congo river basins; bridge-tunnel combinations to span the
Bering Strait, the Straits of Gibraltar, the Straits of Malacca, the Sicilian narrows, and connect Japan to the Asian
mainland; second Panama canal and Kra canals; Eurasian silk road, Cape to Cairo/Dakar to Djibouti, Australian coastal,
and Inter-American rail projects, and more. American businesses will receive many of these orders, which means
American jobs.
This program will create 30 million jobs in less than five years. It will end the depression, rebuild the US economy,
improve wages and standards of living, re-start productive investment, and attain full employment with increased
levels of capital investment per job. Most orders placed under this program will go to US private sector bidders.
Because of the vastly increased volume of goods put on the market, inflation will not result.


I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

16LdMA6pCgq9ULrstHmiwwwbGe1BJQyDqr
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June 27, 2011, 10:25:57 PM
 #28

Heres a view into the depression world.  Read the posts, alot of desperation from young and old people alike.

http://www.homelessforums.org/forumdisplay.php?s=9a692229f4edde18d920b2d2b05042f6&f=3
Some sad stuff to read.
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June 27, 2011, 10:35:58 PM
 #29

I, for one, would welcome some good old hyperinflation.  The interest rates on my student and home loans are fixed, so a massive increase in valuation (compared to USD), would be very welcome.  The hardest part would be WHILE it was happening, and continuing to be able to buy food, gas, etc until I got a cost of livings wage increase.  But once the dust settled, anyone holding assets secured by debt would come out way ahead.

The downside is, my meager 401k would become virtually worthless.  Well, unless the mutual funds it is invested in somehow rebounded.
datguywhowanders
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June 27, 2011, 10:39:17 PM
 #30

Atlas,

I used to skip over articles like those. They were the type my dad read and kept warning everyone about imminent danger on Wall Street. As he slowly pulled his money out and transferred it over to gold and silver.

We were all suckers, and I like to think I learned at least a small lesson from that. If nothing else, read EVERYTHING you can. You never know when one of them will be right, and it will pay off to have put a bit away into metals (or BTC as the case may now be.)

Although, I do think there is a strong argument for BTC being next to worthless here in the USA if the dollar really does collapse. People will be too busy just trying to get by for a while for it to be valuable as an exchange medium. Food, water, ammo, and maybe metals again may be the way to go.

However, I can see the value of BTC rising globally as people look for an alternative to the crashing USD.

Me, I'm gonna play it safe and cover all my bases.

Thank you for the article. It was a decent read.

Donations Welcome: 163id7T8KZ6MevqT86DjrBF2kfCPrQsfZE
adaman
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June 27, 2011, 10:44:39 PM
 #31

...

Second, and relatedly, when people are strapped, they do not have as much money for speculation, but will cash out their BTC for dollars to make everyday purchases.  This is why gold actually dropped during the last crash.

...

I completely agree with this. Look at the gold chart for 2008/2009. It dropped in this time. I suspect also bitcoins value will drop in depressions. But like gold i think it will not go to zero.
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June 27, 2011, 11:03:27 PM
 #32

48 percent of Americans say another great depression is likely? Hmmm... 48 percent of Americans also don't believe in evolution... Jus sayin'
+eleventy

18 percent of americans believe the sun revolves around the Earth. 3% had no opinion.  No opinion?  I think that's actually worse. Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/3742/new-poll-gauges-americans-general-knowledge-levels.aspx
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June 27, 2011, 11:03:45 PM
 #33

Atlas - I agree that we have difficult times ahead, but don't you realize that reading all the doomsday shit only makes you more paranoid? Do you really feel like you are one of the few that sees things as they are and everyone else is asleep. You are Neo?



I don't accept anything at face value. As I've always said, in the end, I know nothing. However, it's good to make a choice.
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June 27, 2011, 11:12:40 PM
 #34


So, assuming we're going to be in the next Great Depression in 12 months or so, will Bitcoin remain true as a safe haven for our wealth and labor?

By a number of metrics, we already are as bad economicly as during the early part of the depression.  That said, it doesn't feel like as bad to us, because we are all used to the history talking about starvation of Americans and adject poverty.  We don't see starvation because of advances in mechanical agriculture (bear in mind, in 1929 the automobile was a status symbol, farm tractors were uncommon, and most family owned farms still depended upon working animals), advances in botany in general, and the so called 'green revolution'.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution

We are the beneficiaries of these events, and they have been buffering our population against the full brunt of a depression.  That said, the effects are present, and a rising number of American families are direct beneficiaries of "nutritian programs" such as food stamps, WIC, ecetera.

The hallmark of such events is wealth transfer.  If the government takes steps to confiscate 401k's like gold was confiscated in the 1930's, there will be a mad dash into safe havens of value, and if Bitcoin is close to maturity (it's not remotely right now) then it's value would shoot to the moon as measured against fiat currencies.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 27, 2011, 11:58:15 PM
 #35

I'm putting my money in precious metals and bitcoins. I've been stacking silver for a few months now, and look forward to silver dropping more so I can get in with even more physical, but I also like bitcoins quite a bit.

If you're looking to sign up for an exchange try Bitcoin7 or Tradehill, referral codes are listed below. Sign up for Tradehill and get 10% off of every trade you ever make.

https://www.bitcoin7.com/?ref=6383

http://www.tradehill.com/?r=TH-R15532
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"Basics Of Generational Dynamics" - Look it up!


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June 28, 2011, 12:07:20 AM
 #36


Break down patterns? What in the world are you talking about? They're in consolidation patterns right now, likely to start moving up sharply in the next few weeks.


Settle yourself there hoss.
Youll be educated.
34.50 WAS long term support.
If 32 breaks....were looking at significant decline.



Technical Analysis is worthless in heavily manipulated markets - I'd say that describes COMEX silver, and thus world spot price - How bout you?

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June 28, 2011, 12:30:57 AM
 #37


Technical Analysis is worthless in heavily manipulated markets - I'd say that describes COMEX silver, and thus world spot price - How bout you?

One of the reasons I like bitcoin. Building charts of a market that isn't full of High Frequency Trading algos is a welcome relief. Hell, the chart patterns look like they'll work here. Exciting times.

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
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"Basics Of Generational Dynamics" - Look it up!


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June 28, 2011, 12:33:51 AM
 #38


Technical Analysis is worthless in heavily manipulated markets - I'd say that describes COMEX silver, and thus world spot price - How bout you?

One of the reasons I like bitcoin. Building charts of a market that isn't full of High Frequency Trading algos is a welcome relief. Hell, the chart patterns look like they'll work here. Exciting times.

Oh god yes, I've been LOVING even the tiny data windows tradehill gives you, because if you watch it for a while (and refresh) you can actually literally see the market move, which is just not true in "real" markets.

There is a day coming where there will either be clean exchanges, or none at all.

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A Show for the Bitcoin Universe, Fresh Episodes Weekly!
Episode 3 out now at BitTalk.tv

Liked this weeks episode of BitTalk?  Send us your 2¢ (.02BTC) 
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June 28, 2011, 12:43:36 AM
 #39

Whether or not the economy hits the toilet,
Bitcoin's value is dependent on a strong infrastructure.

That is why it is so exciting to those who see the future of Bitcoin.
Is it speculative? Yes. Is it overpriced right now? Yes.

But if all the bugs get worked, and the infrastructure is strong,
and if you can simply press a button on your phone and send
Bitcoin safely, cheaply, and easily anywhere in the world...
well then .00000001 Bitcoin will be something worth having.

The beauty is that Bitcoin is what it is. The hard part has been
done. I don't care what the dollar or gold does. They will
continue to exist, it is a matter how established and intertwined
Bitcoin can become in society.

The internet in the beginning, to those from the outside, was
weird, clunky, not useful, a side item in society. For those who
understood what it could be, the internet was going to change
the world.

Enter Bitcoin. It may take many years, but I think we can see
that this will be world changing... at some point change the way
we spend, earn, and pay.
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June 28, 2011, 12:51:32 AM
 #40

48 percent of Americans say another great depression is likely? Hmmm... 48 percent of Americans also don't believe in evolution... Jus sayin'

+1

-2

Scientific American - April 20011 - Quantum Gaps in the Big Bang Theory - Why our best explanation of how the universe evolved must be fixed - or replaced.

Scientists are in full retreat mode on the theory of our origins. Its nice to hear them admit they were wrong.

Now, what were you saying about Americans?



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