Why Bitcoin will be bigger than The Bible

[clint25n]

Oh I see, you're laboring under the illusion that separateness exists (outside of conceptual metaphor) and that in reality, the universe is not a unified field.   

Good luck with that superstitious misapplication of pagan/Manichean spiritual concepts to real world. 

I for one, wouldn't fly in any airplanes built using "Biblically correct engineering" or live near a nuke plant designed using "Christian quantum physics."   

Godless empiricism for me, thanks.

No, logical tells me that nothing can only create nothing. We now know that the universe is not eternally old. If it exists, it wasn't created by nothingness. My guess is only something that could break the law of conservation of energy could have brought our universe into existance. That eliminates the big bang and brings about serious flaws with your unified field theory.

Though I'm hoping this wouldn't turn into some religious/atheism debate, you do realize that the atheistic worldview is riddled with physiological issues, logical fallacies and inconsistencies. So I wouldn't start such a fight when standing on such weak ground myself.

[SgtSpike]

Harry Potter is bigger than the Bible. Just saying.
And I think the 6th book was longer too.

And it's sold more copies worldwide.

Sell everything, invest in white messenger owls and magic wands.

No it hasn't.

Total Harry Potter book sales:  325 million  (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081030085932AAYUTSq)
Total Bible sales:  5-6 BILLION (http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/arts/literature/21-best-selling-books-of-all-time.htm)

[befuddled]

My guess is only something that could break the law of conservation of energy could have brought our universe into existance.

The universe has net zero energy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

[clint25n]

The universe has net zero energy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Just because a room containing a black hole, dark-matter and a sun have "net zero" energy, doesn't mean that room or its contents don't exist. It is still a room with a black hole, dark-matter and a sun (something). My bank account and check ledger may have a "net zero" balance by the end of the month, but this just means my debt canceled my income. Net zero is just a balance (theory). But energy and matter still exist, and so does money, and so does debt.

Dawkin's theories are very entertaining. You know he now claims that evil does not exist, since atheists cannot account for objective morality (without a moral law giver).

[tanerlorn]

I have an idea how you can know morality! Consider raping a child. If it makes you feel sick to your stomach, congrats you have morality. If it does not, then youre one of a very small percent of people who cannot feel empathy for others. I fear for you, because in a true free market there will be very little incentive to do business with you. Unlike the current system, where priests run rampant and are given positions of power in the community.

Seriously, its really very simple. We know by instinct if something is wrong, and to what degree. Dawkins probably doesn't understand this because he is quite possibly a deviant who enjoys raping children, so can't fathom what decent morals are.

[clint25n]

I have an idea how you can know morality! Consider raping a child. If it makes you feel sick to your stomach, congrats you have morality. If it does not, then youre one of a very small percent of people who cannot feel empathy for others...
...its really very simple. We know by instinct if something is wrong.

I agree that morality is known and we have common feelings about such things, as you mentioned, with rape. What I said is that atheists cannot account for objective morality. Objective morals are those that are based outside of yourself.  An atheistic worldview can only offer a subjective moral standard based on feelings, situation, experiences, culture, etc. Subjective morals change and can become self-contradictory.

Example: If Hitler had won the war, and he brainwashed the whole world to agree that gassing the Jews was morally good, wouldn't gassing Jews still be morally evil? The answer is obvious. Yes, gassing Jews would still be morally evil, even if the whole world agreed it wasn't. This contradicts and refutes moral subjectivism.
In atheism, morality is up for grabs. If society changes by, say, a nuclear meltdown... and the norm becomes robbery, is it then right if you are robbed of your food for you and your family? Even though the majority of society may rob for food, and may agree that the new right thing to do is "survival of the fittest to repopulate the earth with a strong people"... it is still wrong. It is wrong due to a moral standard outside of yourself.

Think about it. With atheism, there is no moral should and shouldn't. Why? Because when you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective morals truth is established. It is always wrong to rob a starving family of their food, even if your own family is starving. Even if society, your feelings, situation and experience say otherwise.

I fear for you, because in a true free market there will be very little incentive to do business with you. Unlike the current system, where priests run rampant and are given positions of power in the community.

Guess I'm not following you here.

[mouse]

What I said is that atheists cannot account for objective morality.

Neither can Christians. there are many laws in the Bible that we know are morally wrong. I.e. laws on how to treat slaves, how women should behave, againt homosexuality, etc. The are relative to the culture in which they were written and nobody, including most Christians, follows them now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA

[Litt]

OP. I see what you see. And I am truly hopeful for the very first time.

[killer2021]

The genie is out of the bottle and I for one am more optimistic about our future than I ever have been.

Agree. When I first read about bitcoin I was like, "holy crap, this is a great idea." Been hooked ever since.

[clint25n]

What I said is that atheists cannot account for objective morality.

Neither can Christians. there are many laws in the Bible that we know are morally wrong. I.e. laws on how to treat slaves, how women should behave, againt homosexuality, etc. The are relative to the culture in which they were written and nobody, including most Christians, follows them now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA

Slavery:
First let's keep in mind that slavery in the Bible was not always based on race like we have seen in the past couple of centuries. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts; doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves to have all their needs provided for by their masters. However, there has been, and always will be people kidnapped into slavery and forced into it based on race.

God allows many things to happen such as famine, murder, slavery, etc. While many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves.  So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists.  God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.

So if man is going to permit slavery, then how are these rules immoral as you say?

The Bible acknowledged the slave's status as the property of the master (Ex. 21:23; Lev. 25:46).
The Bible restricted the master's power over the slave. Ex. 21:20).
The slave was a member of the master's household (Lev. 22:11).
The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10; Deut. 5:14).
The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13; Exodus 12:44; Lev. 22:11).
The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17).
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14). carm.org

How Women Should Behave:
Can you give me an example here relating to immorality?

Homosexuality:
Again, homosexuality is still considered immoral by most of the world.
How is this considered an example of immorality found within the Bible?

[clint25n]

Again, my whole point was that if morals are not subjective, then atheists cannot explain this. What could possibly be imposing a moral standard on humans? I think I gave an example of how moral subjectivism fails as a theory.

How did we even get on this subject. I thought we were supposed to be talking about bitcoins.

[tanerlorn]

How do you know something is imposing that moral standard though? How can you prove its not simply the result of our superior brains being able to rationalize? That hey, yeah, torturing animals and killing them is bad. Raping and murdering is not something you do.

I am able to come to these conclusions, completely without the help of the "God" of the bible. Its called common sense. The very fact that you call yourself a human should mean you are able to do these very basic human acts.

Oh and there's a couple problems with your whole theory on Hitler. He didn't gas any jews, or if he did, it was a whole hell of a lot less than we are made to believe by the media/history books. Oh and the Germans didn't even start World War 2, if you believe that then we really have nothing to discuss, our point of views are just too different. Oh and by priests running around I was mainly referring to Catholic (as I was raised in that religion) but other Christians I assume are similiar (of course not the denominations that allow priests to marry). These are men who deny their very manhood, their very essence, deny themselves a woman, while at the same time surrounding themselves with a great deal of young, prepubescent boys who, if you're raping them in the dark, are pretty similar to a woman, lets be honest.

But yeah, obviously this isn't posted for your benefit because you are far too programmed by the religious programming and as such will defend it to literally your death. But hopefully someone will read these words and think things over and maybe even make some small changes in their life. BECOME A VEGETARIAN, PEOPLE, THAT IS LIKE THE SIMPLEST THING YOU CAN DO. Even if you just eat one less tortured animal a week, just cutting SOME meat out of your diet will be massive good karma, along with improving your health and well-being.

[SgtSpike]

Hehehe, someone who doesn't believe in the holocaust... I knew people like you existed, but haven't had the pleasure of interacting with one yet.

I've spoken with survivors of the holocaust.  Maybe you haven't.  But the holocaust DID happen.  And it WAS as atrocious and astonishing horrific as all of the textbooks and "media" make it out to be.  And it DID involve the killing of millions of Jews.  There is proof of it everywhere.

[TraderTimm]

I'm invoking Godwins Law.

Just shut this silly thread down, eh?

[tanerlorn]

Proof of it everywhere. And yet you offer none.

I never once said it didn't happen, I never said it wasn't horrific. But the same thing happened in America with the Japanese, and millions were NOT killed, think about it with your critical thinking for like 2 seconds, come on. I know you probably haven't used the muscle since you were a child.

[clint25n]

How do you know something is imposing that moral standard though?

Let's say that far away, on an alien planet, beings enjoy killing babies for fun and entertainment. Now, is this considered evil everywhere in the universe, or just in your human mind? Objective morality means that it is evil everywhere, no matter where you are located or what species you are.
Killing babies for fun and entertainment is never right, even if humans (and their minds) don't exist.
Subjective morality says it's only wrong for you.

So answer then. Is killing babies for fun and entertainment only wrong for you, or is it wrong period.
As an atheist, you must say evil does not exist (as Richard Dawkins does).
How can you even trust that the random particles you are made up of allow you to give a truly logical answer?
Remember, the atheistic worldview makes you no more than a flesh machine that is merely reacting to the chemical reactions in your brain. There is no right and wrong, just random particles in a meaningless random universe. Logic, rationality and morals are only bound internally in your own human brain and therefore are a figment of your imagination.

I propose that logic and morality is objective, so they do not change whether you, or an entire community of people decide something is not evil (like the Nazi's).
Objective moral values exist, and they are imposed onto your conscience by God. I'd love to hear your theory on whether morals and logic is either subjective or objective and how it could be objective without a law giver.

...you are far too programmed by the religious programming and as such will defend it to literally your death.

Actually, I'm not into religion, just logic, reason, science and my belief in God. Religion can be a dangerous man-made system of control. Even Jesus ate with the outcast tax collectors and prostitutes, but He had a HUGE problem with the religious leaders and pharisees of that day.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites... you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness." - Jesus Christ
Jesus was not a fan of religion either.

[tanerlorn]

I could believe you, and I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but you for some strange reason think jesus is gonna be coming back someday, when the fact is he was MURDERED by the same group that I suspect is still in power (elite priests)

[clint25n]

I could believe you, and I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but you for some strange reason think jesus is gonna be coming back someday, when the fact is he was MURDERED by the same group that I suspect is still in power (elite priests)

This could go on a long while, lol.. and I'm just waiting for a bitlord to shutdown this thread. Or perhaps people like to read debates such as these?
But I will say this.. Jesus was either a Liar, a Lunatic or Lord.
He claimed to be God. He either knew He wasn't and lied, thought He was and was a lunatic, or truly is and is Lord.

[tanerlorn]

I could believe you, and I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but you for some strange reason think jesus is gonna be coming back someday, when the fact is he was MURDERED by the same group that I suspect is still in power (elite priests)

He claimed to be God.

My experience and knowledge has led me to believe that this is indeed not the case, and the priests who killed him simply said that about him afterwards. My understanding is that he simply was trying to change people's ways, and very charismatic, and therefore developed a following.

[rampone]

For god: he is nothing like anyone believes. Its more like morality inside us. buddhists call it good carma (would be my religion of choice, if i would choose one). But also my morality guides me to accept all different kinds of views. in the end, its almost all about the same (gppd) thing: enlarge morality.
And truly this world is so remarkable, that one should really think someone must have invented this But I believe in randomness (I solo mine also harhar). With that many stars and galaxies out there, it had to happen. We are the lotto jackpot times a million.
So please try to save nature...god/buddha/satan/insert random god/random hero will not save it for us.

Instead system earth will wipe us, it will suffer in the process, but in the end survive.

... but hey im moving of topic...
But please do not get fanatic about religion, like some groups do in EVERY(excemptions prrove the rule) religion.


about the Jews and the non holocaust:

I am a schnitzel and sauerkraut german. It happened..., you know why? Because some leaders killed their own people (khmer in Camodia for example), why not kill a different race? ....
And proof you see everyday in Germany are the so called "stolpersteine". Its a metalplated stone near houses where jews lived and were deported. I think if they were alive, they would have come back for their house.

Dont believe everything in the media, definitely not, but trust me on this one: The holocaust happened.

(and how i am pissed off that even after 2.5 generations everywhere you go in the world it is rubbed under your nose: nazi, jews, blablabla)

And for some morality: some things are hardwired into our brain (again rules make the excemption (hello randomness), dont expect in 7 billion people every wiring in the brain to be okay) and this also makes the bridge to "by some groups hated" evolution.
those sick people will either be put to jail/murdered/will die themselves/etc or it will be sometimes such "wrong wiring" that it prooves to be better/efficient/more survivable than the others.

The change will vanish  or stay.
It might also bring the old normal wiring "out of business" (do  not find the word for "verdrängen" right now)

evolution....

give it time and randomness and it will strengthen the system.

Last sentence sound a lot like bitcoin (yeahh my brain wiring is back to the topic of the forum, hate those philosophical discussions, everyone shall believe what they want, but i have my big picture puzzle and I am always glad to hear about new parts

Rampone (no the soccermom playing for the USA  

just my 2 cBTC