Some Bitcoin owners do not own Bitcoin.

[razzor85]

Hi,

I have the feeling that the Bitcoin price of 6600$ is much too less. I think the price should be more than 100,000$.
Everybody speaks about Bitcoin, but there are only 16 million of coins.

And in my opinion, there are a huge number of people they own bitcoin.

So, I think that many people own "Bitcoins without having the private key".

Do we have already virtual coins in the market outside of the blockchain? Are the Bangsters back?

Was Bitcoin not created because of this?

Now we have already CFD contracts: You can bet on the price of bitcoin without having the coin.
You have coinbase, I am not sure but you cannot export the private key. Is this correct?

Many people have bitcoins on the exchanger, but they don't have the private key. Have all the exchanger really the bitcoins they trade.
Or have they only enough bitcoins for some people to transfer to a bitcoin address. But what would happen if all exchanger users transfer the
Bitcoins to a Bitcoin address. Have we then again, the message the system is at the moment not available?

I have many questions, but what do you think?

[Silberman]

Hi,

I have the feeling that the Bitcoin price of 6600$ is much too less. I think the price should be more than 100,000$.
Everybody speaks about Bitcoin, but there are only 16 million of coins.

And in my opinion, there are a huge number of people they own bitcoin.

So, I think that many people own "Bitcoins without having the private key".

Do we have already virtual coins in the market outside of the blockchain? Are the Bangsters back?

Was Bitcoin not created because of this?

Now we have already CFD contracts: You can bet on the price of bitcoin without having the coin.
You have coinbase, I am not sure but you cannot export the private key. Is this correct?

Many people have bitcoins on the exchanger, but they don't have the private key. Have all the exchanger really the bitcoins they trade.
Or have they only enough bitcoins for some people to transfer to a bitcoin address. But what would happen if all exchanger users transfer the
Bitcoins to a Bitcoin address. Have we then again, the message the system is at the moment not available?

I have many questions, but what do you think?

You are covering lots of ground but lets try, those people that have their money at an exchange and do not have possession of their private keys are in a situation no different than a person holding his funds in the bank, so in a way you are correct, even if they are the owners of that bitcoin since they are not the sole possessors of their private keys then they do not own bitcoin, and second the forks only create altcoins not bitcoins so no banker can print bitcoin at will even if that is what they want.

[_Dawid_]

Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

[djgtr]

Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

well i believe some bitcoin owners didnt own because they invest it for good and theres nothing left behind on thier wallet .they are really smart and they are really experience person they know they can gain on investing and trqding with bitcoin that is why they use all thier btc or maybe they convert it inyo fiat then save.

[carriebee]

Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

well i believe some bitcoin owners didnt own because they invest it for good and theres nothing left behind on thier wallet .they are really smart and they are really experience person they know they can gain on investing and trqding with bitcoin that is why they use all thier btc or maybe they convert it inyo fiat then save.

Yes exactly, some of bitcoin owners dont own bitcoin probably because they already sold their own. Others early adapters already sold their own bitcoin because of the currently price is very expensive. And, most already convert into fiat using it emergency purposes or use it in daily expenses.

[Jeremiesaranza]

Exactly yes..because some owner sell their own Bitcoin and nothing left in their wallet..they sell it during the value of Bitcoin increases

[webtricks]

Hi,

I have the feeling that the Bitcoin price of 6600$ is much too less. I think the price should be more than 100,000$.
Everybody speaks about Bitcoin, but there are only 16 million of coins.

Limited supply is the backbone of increasing Bitcoin price. You can't say that because of limited supply, everyone can't own Bitcoin and that's why price is less. Read about demand-supply law and you will be more clear.

And in my opinion, there are a huge number of people they own bitcoin.

So, I think that many people own "Bitcoins without having the private key".

Do we have already virtual coins in the market outside of the blockchain? Are the Bangsters back?

Was Bitcoin not created because of this?

Having private keys or not don't imapct the supply of Bitcoins. In case of web wallets and exchanges, users no doubt only have representative value of bitcoin in their wallet and not real coins but those values aren't manipulative and web wallets or exchanges do have those Bitcoins in their cold or hot storage.

Now we have already CFD contracts: You can bet on the price of bitcoin without having the coin.

CMD or Futures market having nothing to do with Bitcoin and its price.

You have coinbase, I am not sure but you cannot export the private key. Is this correct?

Correct.

Many people have bitcoins on the exchanger, but they don't have the private key. Have all the exchanger really the bitcoins they trade.
Or have they only enough bitcoins for some people to transfer to a bitcoin address. But what would happen if all exchanger users transfer the
Bitcoins to a Bitcoin address. Have we then again, the message the system is at the moment not available?

Again same thing, exchanges do have real Bitcoins with them equivalent to what users have on their representative wallets. There is constant influx/outflux on exchanges which ensures there is symmetrical cash (Bitcoin) flow on system. Which ensures in the case all users withdrawing Bitcoins, exchanges have enough to pay them all.

[Hamphser]

Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

well i believe some bitcoin owners didnt own because they invest it for good and theres nothing left behind on thier wallet .they are really smart and they are really experience person they know they can gain on investing and trqding with bitcoin that is why they use all thier btc or maybe they convert it inyo fiat then save.

Yes exactly, some of bitcoin owners dont own bitcoin probably because they already sold their own. Others early adapters already sold their own bitcoin because of the currently price is very expensive. And, most already convert into fiat using it emergency purposes or use it in daily expenses.

This is correct. We do have the freedom on how we gonna use our bitcoin and its not really necessary for us to store it specially when we are in need of money specially on emergencies or any possible plans in your mind.
Some do actively sell it once they do attain it and thats what happening on my side which i do sell them off once i do earn them.I dont plan for future savings as long i do earn money.Dont hate me since i do need money for daily basis and its not necessary for me to follow what others doing as of now.

[buwaytress]

Having private keys or not don't imapct the supply of Bitcoins. In case of web wallets and exchanges, users no doubt only have representative value of bitcoin in their wallet and not real coins but those values aren't manipulative and web wallets or exchanges do have those Bitcoins in their cold or hot storage.

snip~

Again same thing, exchanges do have real Bitcoins with them equivalent to what users have on their representative wallets. There is constant influx/outflux on exchanges which ensures there is symmetrical cash (Bitcoin) flow on system. Which ensures in the case all users withdrawing Bitcoins, exchanges have enough to pay them all.

You've missed the point, which still stands. A lot of people who think they own Bitcoin actually don't at all. Until only you own the private keys to your wallet, you have absolutely no control over what happens to your coins, and no way of ever verifying if the exchange actually has your coins.

Sure, some exchanges can prove some of their actual Bitcoin balances, but in general most cannot reliably prove solvency. You must have not heard of all the problems with major exchanges to believe they have the system fixed.

And the point is, even if they do, you still have to trust that they will honour your Bitcoin withdrawals.

I did mention this yesterday... why I feel mass use and mass adoption is falsely expanded by a lot of newcomers who actually don't own nor use Bitcoin.

[sukamasoto]

I think most people already understand that as long as their btc is on exchanger, they not fully own it until they move into wallet like blockchain/electrum,etc
They put their btc for trading purpose and after sometime they will move btc eventually

[player514]

I think most people already understand that as long as their btc is on exchanger, they not fully own it until they move into wallet like blockchain/electrum,etc
They put their btc for trading purpose and after sometime they will move btc eventually

I mean technically the BTC is theirs isn't it? If the exchange is just the platform in which the bitcoins are stored, doesn't that mean that the exchange needs to provide the user with a personal wallet for deposits and such?

I see what you're saying, but In my opinion, the person using the exchange still owns the bitcoin.

[8270thNinja]

Online Bitcoin wallet and exchanges do have my private key and anytime they can get it but hey wait, Government monitors and approved these exchanges ( i'm talking about coins,ph) therefore, my money is safe and they will get accountable if something will happen to my money and bitcoin.
 
Buying Bitcoin on online wallet will not give you a Bitcoin only an amount recorded to their database and these posters should get what buwaytress are trying to say.

To TS: You don't have your own bitcoin if you don't have your private key. You are just using their services and about the money on buying and selling bitcoin, They have the margin for that and they are also trading the money you are giving to them. IT IS NOT SYMMETRICAL OR SYNC WITH WHAT WALLET YOU HAVE, DON'T BE BLIND.

[TagaMungkahi]

Again same thing, exchanges do have real Bitcoins with them equivalent to what users have on their representative wallets. There is constant influx/outflux on exchanges which ensures there is symmetrical cash (Bitcoin) flow on system. Which ensures in the case all users withdrawing Bitcoins, exchanges have enough to pay them all.

On coins.ph, Yes they always makes sure that there is a right flow on their exchange and they do have their own limit daily but you do not get that They have their own margin of price which give them profit and Bitcoins at the same time, including the transaction fees, so for me i do not think that they are synced or symmetrical cash/bitcoin flow on their system. They are just good at managing these exchanges but i really doubt if they have that Bitcoin reserves and Cash reserves, I believe more on trading and also the profit on Buy/Sell Margin and Transaction fees as well.

[krishnapramod]

I think most people already understand that as long as their btc is on exchanger, they not fully own it until they move into wallet like blockchain/electrum,etc
They put their btc for trading purpose and after sometime they will move btc eventually

I mean technically the BTC is theirs isn't it? If the exchange is just the platform in which the bitcoins are stored, doesn't that mean that the exchange needs to provide the user with a personal wallet for deposits and such?

I see what you're saying, but In my opinion, the person using the exchange still owns the bitcoin.

Owning and having control over your Bitcoin aren't the same, private keys makes the difference. Custodial wallets and exchanges does provide the users a wallet, but not keys. So theoretically it could be said you own the Bitcoins when you keep them on an exchange or move them to an exchange, but technically since you don't have control over them, do you really own them? Nope.

Keeping small amounts of Bitcoin for trading purposes on reputable exchanges is necessary for active traders, but when you can be your own bank, keeping everything on exchanges would be foolishness. And that's what a lot of newbies are doing now.

[Tsuyuri]

Is it actually a really smart idea to call them bitcoin owners? if they do not own bitcoins also there are people who have a lot of altcoins and they are worth as much as a bitcoin i believe you can call them bitcoin owners as they own the same price.

[DrGuns4Hands]

If you're an owner as well as having control over your bitcoin you should've know that it is not the same. Unless you own a private keys, you have no control over your coins, and no way of knowing if the exchange has your coins.

[honeyb0y]

Yes once you put your Bitcoin on exchanges consider that coin to belong to those exchanges until you had it back to your wallet. This is the reason why once those exchanges are hacked or compromised your coin will be included on that. This is just the same as having your money on a bank when the bank collapsed your money will be lost.

[FoxTheHuman]

It is very simple to own a certain amount of bitcoin but you have enough economics? No need to own a private key to become a bitcoin owner because there are so many ways to own it.

[waynechong1995]

I'm not sure how CFD works, but eventually there would be a certain party that lease your earning and to be responsible on your amount of bitcoin that you suppose to have, these exchange could have a pretty good system on managing these stuff, like exchanges we wouldn't able to obtain our private keys locally despite 'having' an address to that actually contain bitcoins, system is down? pretty much the same in every companies to process all your requested transaction in similar fashion, to do the actual bitcoin transaction only when needed, the rest of the movement are just numbers moving around within the trading engine.

[Dudeperfect]

I agree that if you are the owner of the private keys then you own the Bitcoins but there are some exceptions such as Exchange users, Web wallet users, Trezor hardware wallet users where you allow the platform to handle the private keys for you. If you are talking about dummy KYC users, then I have a doubt that millionaires or billionaires hire their accountants to invest and manage Bitcoins/Altcoins/Stocks etc for them because it's the matter of tax planning.