Tarnished image

[benjamindees]

You're right, the state of mining is rather sad right now.  But it is a competitive industry, by design.  No one is guaranteed a profit.  And there's not really even much reason for hardware manufacturers to sell their designs to you.  So, if you can do better, do it.  Otherwise, what do you want us to do?  The point of Bitcoin isn't to attract newcomers.  It's to have a free economy.  This is what it looks like.  It's not always perfect, but it's getting better.

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[MooC Tals]

These are just my feelings on the whole Idea of Bitcoin. In all honesty I see a very hostile environment. As a new person to bitcoin I can't see this as a welcoming forum. I see the same as every other aspect of society.

The leaders seem to be on the take, the manufactures of devices either only accept bitcoins which someone who is starting does not have or accept pre-orders and ship after ROI has almost vanished. The difficulty is rising so fast that in order to make more than breaking even one must make a large sunk cost to have any chance.

There is no avenue for small investors that empathizes with the motto of Bitcoin decentralization. At the same time I don't want to say I am naive to believe that companies and or organization would give out free opportunities. So why would anyone want to invest in something that is so hostile to new people.

As the only reason why I sit here on this forum is to see how this all ends up. Me being curios is the only reason as to why I sit here and watch the worst of humanity conducts its business.

GPU's are dead
small Asics are sold in large batches to stay above the difficulty curve to be able to make money. I don't know about you but I don't trust group buys
Asics are going to less decentralized members

There is no room for me. To be honest I think I never was in and although I have tried and have given bitcoin more than enough of my attention I have seen the worst in people.

I'll watch some more and then go on to other things. Hope that does not happen in a large scale.

you seem to have a one track mind revolving around mining.

bitcoin is a whole economy, imagine it like a new country being born with its own currency. there are training opportunities, retail opportunities, manufacturing, freelance opportunities, etc etc. the bitcoin world is your oyster. if you can't afford a mining rig then set up a shop selling groceries, clothing, DIY products, rent out apartment complexes, offer many other services like electrician, cable TV installers, plumbers.

bitcoin is not just about mining

  So you expect me to believe that people will just mine these coins for free? Last time I checked mining was an integral part of Bitcoin and with out enough miners you can't even service all the transactions passed to buyer to seller. I'm may be new to mining as I have only been doing this for about 3-4 months however I understand many aspects of crypto currencies. I understand how they work.

I am seeing a disturbing trend of hostility towards miners. It was open to anyone who could put a computer together however now asics are very narrow and unavailable to all. Only to people who are willing to put down large payloads of money. This is also in the light of possibly losing money through a difficulty increase that is jumping at a rate that will be a surprise to many. This is not a healthy tred imo.

Now lets say this continues for while and everyone begins to look at their expense report after a year only to realize that the money is not in mining. What happens to bitcoin and litecoin?

I have stopped mining for over a week now. How long you think my wallet will take to be removed?  How many other people will move on if they can't have some of the pie? Do you see my point now? Less miners less pools less people using wallets less decentralization.

[MooC Tals]

You're right, the state of mining is rather sad right now.  But it is a competitive industry, by design.  No one is guaranteed a profit.  And there's not really even much reason for hardware manufacturers to sell their designs to you.  So, if you can do better, do it.  Otherwise, what do you want us to do?  The point of Bitcoin isn't to attract newcomers.  It's to have a free economy.  This is what it looks like.  It's not always perfect, but it's getting better.

I agree its a competition. I was told we were decentralized but this is turning out to not be the case. This trend will hurt in the long run. There is nothing that can be done. I know that I also know that in the end it will not be a surprise to see large players in charge of transaction processing(fewer players as well). Is this acceptable to you?

[worldtreasurefinders]

Let's use an analogy to see clearly what's going on.

Imagine a large gold vein is discovered in a nearby mountainside.  At first the gold is so plentiful that anyone can get in with nothing more than a pie pan and pan for gold (CPU mining for BTC), and make a profit doing so.  People see these other people mining the cheap and easy gold and jump in, but the cheap and easy gold starts to go away, and mining becomes more difficult.  Mining with a cheap pie pan isn't worth it anymore, so some people quit, while others buy more expensive equipment, say a sluice or dredge and get to work obtaining the more-difficult-to-mine gold (GPU mining for BTC).  As more and more gold is mined, eventually even this equipment doesn't get you much, and now folks either have to buy more expensive equipment to mine the gold, or quit.  Some people invest in large scale mining plants to get the difficult-to-mine gold (ASIC mining for BTC), while those with pie pans complain that it's too hostile for new miners to make any profit.  They have no right to complain, the time of easy pickings is gone.  Does this mean that gold will cease being a valuable currency?  No, it just means you either have to invest real money into machines that can mine profitably, or don't mine at all and just buy BTC outright.

[Explodicle]

with out enough miners you can't even service all the transactions passed to buyer to seller.

Every node verifies every transaction. Mining just establishes the order in which transactions are processed. Not that I think this hyperbolic scenario is likely, but even a single dominant miner could handle the exact same transaction volume as a thousand miners. Pool operators pretty much do this already.

What's so hard about buying a single USB miner stick secondhand? Do you think mining hardware speculators are all conspiring to charge more, or do you think the price will reflect the risk/time/effort involved in buying wholesale from a manufacturer?

[Trongersoll]

anybody who is quiting bitcoin, feel free to send me you unwanted coins and fragments. account in sig.

[NedKLee]

Let's use an analogy to see clearly what's going on.

Imagine a large gold vein is discovered in a nearby mountainside.  At first the gold is so plentiful that anyone can get in with nothing more than a pie pan and pan for gold (CPU mining for BTC), and make a profit doing so.  People see these other people mining the cheap and easy gold and jump in, but the cheap and easy gold starts to go away, and mining becomes more difficult.  Mining with a cheap pie pan isn't worth it anymore, so some people quit, while others buy more expensive equipment, say a sluice or dredge and get to work obtaining the more-difficult-to-mine gold (GPU mining for BTC).  As more and more gold is mined, eventually even this equipment doesn't get you much, and now folks either have to buy more expensive equipment to mine the gold, or quit.  Some people invest in large scale mining plants to get the difficult-to-mine gold (ASIC mining for BTC), while those with pie pans complain that it's too hostile for new miners to make any profit.  They have no right to complain, the time of easy pickings is gone.  Does this mean that gold will cease being a valuable currency?  No, it just means you either have to invest real money into machines that can mine profitably, or don't mine at all and just buy BTC outright.

I really like your analogy, here in Central South Australia there are lots of isolated, heavily guarded, gold mines, where mining companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to extract Gold and Silver Copper and other minerals, I liken them to the ASIC miners for BTC., (btw, they provide lots of employent in the meantime, plus royalty cheques for the local landowners) every one benefits, including the economy.

Meantime there's old mate in Central Victoria, who makes a very nice living panning for Gold, and has done so for years, problem is, he's the only one that benefits, not even his family as he's a single bloke, I liken him to a GPU miner.

To my mind the ASIC miners are an integral part of BTC, without them BTC will founder and if you follow the block chain to its logical conclusion, eventually, (not in my lifetime) the only return the miners will get is the transaction fees.

Sure the big miners make huge profits, but in the meantime everyone benefits, no doubt several people will tell me this is not a good thing, but then I'm not an economist, but ever the optimist.

[MooC Tals]

with out enough miners you can't even service all the transactions passed to buyer to seller.

Every node verifies every transaction. Mining just establishes the order in which transactions are processed. Not that I think this hyperbolic scenario is likely, but even a single dominant miner could handle the exact same transaction volume as a thousand miners. Pool operators pretty much do this already.

What's so hard about buying a single USB miner stick secondhand? Do you think mining hardware speculators are all conspiring to charge more, or do you think the price will reflect the risk/time/effort involved in buying wholesale from a manufacturer?

Conspiring? No I don't think that at all. I just would not support bitcoin if it was centralized with a few mining farms. You make it sound like mining is not a very important part of bitcoin. I'm just saying that it will come to a point where the effort in keeping miners will be a concern and by then it will be too late. The trends of bitcoin losing smaller miners is not something that should be taken lightly. After all it was a big issue at its conception.

I know it seems petty now and not very important but this is just the begining of Bitcoin's start with Asics. Difficulty has jumped higher and quicker than it has ever. To all those that are saying just send you coins if your leaving. You may get your wish as many more people leave they will leave all their coins for you.

If no one uses the coins then what value will it have. Have you seen bitcoins price? It can't get any higher than 100 lately, and it won't until asics find it difficult to mine enough to hord them. They won't if the price keeps falling or stays put. After all they have to pay for the miner. You know that dam ROI.

Just a heads up when people can't win at a game they tend to leave. If they feel they have not had a fair shot they refuse to use it.

[cp1]

You can get 5GH for only $350, so ASICs aren't only for a handful of people.

[MooC Tals]

Let's use an analogy to see clearly what's going on.

Imagine a large gold vein is discovered in a nearby mountainside.  At first the gold is so plentiful that anyone can get in with nothing more than a pie pan and pan for gold (CPU mining for BTC), and make a profit doing so.  People see these other people mining the cheap and easy gold and jump in, but the cheap and easy gold starts to go away, and mining becomes more difficult.  Mining with a cheap pie pan isn't worth it anymore, so some people quit, while others buy more expensive equipment, say a sluice or dredge and get to work obtaining the more-difficult-to-mine gold (GPU mining for BTC).  As more and more gold is mined, eventually even this equipment doesn't get you much, and now folks either have to buy more expensive equipment to mine the gold, or quit.  Some people invest in large scale mining plants to get the difficult-to-mine gold (ASIC mining for BTC), while those with pie pans complain that it's too hostile for new miners to make any profit.  They have no right to complain, the time of easy pickings is gone.  Does this mean that gold will cease being a valuable currency?  No, it just means you either have to invest real money into machines that can mine profitably, or don't mine at all and just buy BTC outright.

I guess that's why we all use gold to buy our gas and groceries. I have to admit this is a very good analogy like NedKLee said however gold does not need a miner to process transactions. However gold is called a barbaric relic now by the central authorities now. Will bitcoin be a barbaric relic or worse a fad that weened away to another system that has been created with a central system just like bitcoin would be soon?

[MooC Tals]

You can get 5GH for only $350, so ASICs aren't only for a handful of people.

Yes I understand that but do you understand that with difficulty jumping at 24% every 2 week the time from profit to break even will be shorter. Its not like GPU's took over a year to realize you need equipment. Every time a new technology shows up the diff shoots faster and high than before. It will come a time that the money you make will be needed to purchase new equipment and after all has been said and done you end up playing a zero sum game. This will also get to a point where instead of many miners it will be fewer miners and so on.

[MooC Tals]

Let's use an analogy to see clearly what's going on.

Imagine a large gold vein is discovered in a nearby mountainside.  At first the gold is so plentiful that anyone can get in with nothing more than a pie pan and pan for gold (CPU mining for BTC), and make a profit doing so.  People see these other people mining the cheap and easy gold and jump in, but the cheap and easy gold starts to go away, and mining becomes more difficult.  Mining with a cheap pie pan isn't worth it anymore, so some people quit, while others buy more expensive equipment, say a sluice or dredge and get to work obtaining the more-difficult-to-mine gold (GPU mining for BTC).  As more and more gold is mined, eventually even this equipment doesn't get you much, and now folks either have to buy more expensive equipment to mine the gold, or quit.  Some people invest in large scale mining plants to get the difficult-to-mine gold (ASIC mining for BTC), while those with pie pans complain that it's too hostile for new miners to make any profit.  They have no right to complain, the time of easy pickings is gone.  Does this mean that gold will cease being a valuable currency?  No, it just means you either have to invest real money into machines that can mine profitably, or don't mine at all and just buy BTC outright.

I really like your analogy, here in Central South Australia there are lots of isolated, heavily guarded, gold mines, where mining companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to extract Gold and Silver Copper and other minerals, I liken them to the ASIC miners for BTC., (btw, they provide lots of employent in the meantime, plus royalty cheques for the local landowners) every one benefits, including the economy.

Meantime there's old mate in Central Victoria, who makes a very nice living panning for Gold, and has done so for years, problem is, he's the only one that benefits, not even his family as he's a single bloke, I liken him to a GPU miner.

To my mind the ASIC miners are an integral part of BTC, without them BTC will founder and if you follow the block chain to its logical conclusion, eventually, (not in my lifetime) the only return the miners will get is the transaction fees.

Sure the big miners make huge profits, but in the meantime everyone benefits, no doubt several people will tell me this is not a good thing, but then I'm not an economist, but ever the optimist.

Like the central banks of today right? Is it not that the reason why bitcoin was created to combat that very thing? So why are we mining a decentralized currency?

[Insu Dra]

Let's use an analogy to see clearly what's going on.

Imagine a large gold vein is discovered in a nearby mountainside.  At first the gold is so plentiful that anyone can get in with nothing more than a pie pan and pan for gold (CPU mining for BTC), and make a profit doing so.  People see these other people mining the cheap and easy gold and jump in, but the cheap and easy gold starts to go away, and mining becomes more difficult.  Mining with a cheap pie pan isn't worth it anymore, so some people quit, while others buy more expensive equipment, say a sluice or dredge and get to work obtaining the more-difficult-to-mine gold (GPU mining for BTC).  As more and more gold is mined, eventually even this equipment doesn't get you much, and now folks either have to buy more expensive equipment to mine the gold, or quit.  Some people invest in large scale mining plants to get the difficult-to-mine gold (ASIC mining for BTC), while those with pie pans complain that it's too hostile for new miners to make any profit.  They have no right to complain, the time of easy pickings is gone.  Does this mean that gold will cease being a valuable currency?  No, it just means you either have to invest real money into machines that can mine profitably, or don't mine at all and just buy BTC outright.

I really like your analogy, here in Central South Australia there are lots of isolated, heavily guarded, gold mines, where mining companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to extract Gold and Silver Copper and other minerals, I liken them to the ASIC miners for BTC., (btw, they provide lots of employent in the meantime, plus royalty cheques for the local landowners) every one benefits, including the economy.

Meantime there's old mate in Central Victoria, who makes a very nice living panning for Gold, and has done so for years, problem is, he's the only one that benefits, not even his family as he's a single bloke, I liken him to a GPU miner.

To my mind the ASIC miners are an integral part of BTC, without them BTC will founder and if you follow the block chain to its logical conclusion, eventually, (not in my lifetime) the only return the miners will get is the transaction fees.

Sure the big miners make huge profits, but in the meantime everyone benefits, no doubt several people will tell me this is not a good thing, but then I'm not an economist, but ever the optimist.

Like the central banks of today right? Is it not that the reason why bitcoin was created to combat that very thing? So why are we mining a decentralized currency?

Exactly, just like central banks or even political parties both want us to believe wealth will trickle down (we should know better by now) ...

Don't like a pool go mine on other pool ... That is like telling a us citizen to go vote for 3the party ... and like they experienced in Belgium, if that third party ever gets a big vote count the others will just ban together to keep them out ... Decentralized my ass, Just like current democratic political/economical system, It was a nice concept but it failed. (or is failing/ slipping away)

[MooC Tals]

Let's use an analogy to see clearly what's going on.

Imagine a large gold vein is discovered in a nearby mountainside.  At first the gold is so plentiful that anyone can get in with nothing more than a pie pan and pan for gold (CPU mining for BTC), and make a profit doing so.  People see these other people mining the cheap and easy gold and jump in, but the cheap and easy gold starts to go away, and mining becomes more difficult.  Mining with a cheap pie pan isn't worth it anymore, so some people quit, while others buy more expensive equipment, say a sluice or dredge and get to work obtaining the more-difficult-to-mine gold (GPU mining for BTC).  As more and more gold is mined, eventually even this equipment doesn't get you much, and now folks either have to buy more expensive equipment to mine the gold, or quit.  Some people invest in large scale mining plants to get the difficult-to-mine gold (ASIC mining for BTC), while those with pie pans complain that it's too hostile for new miners to make any profit.  They have no right to complain, the time of easy pickings is gone.  Does this mean that gold will cease being a valuable currency?  No, it just means you either have to invest real money into machines that can mine profitably, or don't mine at all and just buy BTC outright.

I really like your analogy, here in Central South Australia there are lots of isolated, heavily guarded, gold mines, where mining companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to extract Gold and Silver Copper and other minerals, I liken them to the ASIC miners for BTC., (btw, they provide lots of employent in the meantime, plus royalty cheques for the local landowners) every one benefits, including the economy.

Meantime there's old mate in Central Victoria, who makes a very nice living panning for Gold, and has done so for years, problem is, he's the only one that benefits, not even his family as he's a single bloke, I liken him to a GPU miner.

To my mind the ASIC miners are an integral part of BTC, without them BTC will founder and if you follow the block chain to its logical conclusion, eventually, (not in my lifetime) the only return the miners will get is the transaction fees.

Sure the big miners make huge profits, but in the meantime everyone benefits, no doubt several people will tell me this is not a good thing, but then I'm not an economist, but ever the optimist.

Like the central banks of today right? Is it not that the reason why bitcoin was created to combat that very thing? So why are we mining a decentralized currency?

Exactly, just like central banks or even political parties both want us to believe wealth will trickle down (we should know better by now) ...

Don't like a pool go mine on other pool ... That is like telling a us citizen to go vote for 3the party ... and like they experienced in Belgium, if that third party ever gets a big vote count the others will just ban together to keep them out ... Decentralized my ass, Just like current democratic political/economical system, It was a nice concept but it failed. (or is failing/ slipping away)

You see! Someone else gets this. I believe after a few years under our belts we get the picture. Also as I was saying before when a bit of time passes and enough people see that mining is not profitable the very few will be left and the rest move on and leave the few with the most.

Which will later be seen as of no worth.

[darkmule]

You see! Someone else gets this. I believe after a few years under our belts we get the picture. Also as I was saying before when a bit of time passes and enough people see that mining is not profitable the very few will be left and the rest move on and leave the few with the most.

This is sort of like gold has lost all its value and nobody can buy or sell it any more because it is difficult to mine?

[cp1]

This is sort of like gold has lost all its value and nobody can buy or sell it any more because it is difficult to mine?

Eh, more like he's saying that it's so difficult to mine that it's all controlled by a few people.  I think diamonds are a better analogy.

[dwdoc]

These are just my feelings on the whole Idea of Bitcoin. In all honesty I see a very hostile environment. As a new person to bitcoin I can't see this as a welcoming forum. I see the same as every other aspect of society.

The leaders seem to be on the take, the manufactures of devices either only accept bitcoins which someone who is starting does not have or accept pre-orders and ship after ROI has almost vanished. The difficulty is rising so fast that in order to make more than breaking even one must make a large sunk cost to have any chance.

There is no avenue for small investors that empathizes with the motto of Bitcoin decentralization. At the same time I don't want to say I am naive to believe that companies and or organization would give out free opportunities. So why would anyone want to invest in something that is so hostile to new people.

As the only reason why I sit here on this forum is to see how this all ends up. Me being curios is the only reason as to why I sit here and watch the worst of humanity conducts its business.

GPU's are dead
small Asics are sold in large batches to stay above the difficulty curve to be able to make money. I don't know about you but I don't trust group buys
Asics are going to less decentralized members

There is no room for me. To be honest I think I never was in and although I have tried and have given bitcoin more than enough of my attention I have seen the worst in people.

I'll watch some more and then go on to other things. Hope that does not happen in a large scale.

Reminds me of Occupy Wallstreet Sentiment.

Is this the start of Occupy Bittalk??

[Insu Dra]

I really like your analogy, here in Central South Australia there are lots of isolated, heavily guarded, gold mines, where mining companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to extract Gold and Silver Copper and other minerals, I liken them to the ASIC miners for BTC., (btw, they provide lots of employent in the meantime, plus royalty cheques for the local landowners) every one benefits, including the economy.

Meantime there's old mate in Central Victoria, who makes a very nice living panning for Gold, and has done so for years, problem is, he's the only one that benefits, not even his family as he's a single bloke, I liken him to a GPU miner.

Reminds me of a movie: Oliver said "Please sir can I have  bit more ?" ...


Tarnished Image - Bitcoin Promotion:
* Anonymous: Fail, at best it's pseudo, but with current generation of exchanges even that's gone. (at least for masses)
* Decentralized: Fail, with pools the power ends up in hands of few ...
* Micro Transactions: Fail, with anti dust changes micro transaction will be unprofitable.
* Everyone can participate (vote): Fail, you need to buy specialized hardware to have a chance.

With every chance we had to improve some of these key benefits the exact opposite happened as a result key benefits are being removed one by one. Whats next ? I don't know ...

[Explodicle]

You can get 5GH for only $350, so ASICs aren't only for a handful of people.

Yes I understand that but do you understand that with difficulty jumping at 24% every 2 week the time from profit to break even will be shorter. Its not like GPU's took over a year to realize you need equipment. Every time a new technology shows up the diff shoots faster and high than before. It will come a time that the money you make will be needed to purchase new equipment and after all has been said and done you end up playing a zero sum game. This will also get to a point where instead of many miners it will be fewer miners and so on.

Bitcoin is designed to make mining a zero sum game. Saving/exchanging is more profitable when you use a currency with a lower miner surplus.

How far are you extrapolating? If BTC ends up anything like gold, IMHO there would be plenty of miners:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_mining#Business
http://www.24hgold.com/english/listcompanies.aspx?fundamental=true&commodity=PL

Basically I think we don't need to be as decentralized as possible, just decentralized "enough" as defined by the consumer market for cryptocurrencies. There are plenty of other coins that are ASIC-resistant if and when this becomes an issue. If you think there's a systemic risk in BTC's security model that is less pronounced in other coins, you might want to convert a portion of your savings.

[crumbs]

You can get 5GH for only $350, so ASICs aren't only for a handful of people.

Yes I understand that but do you understand that with difficulty jumping at 24% every 2 week the time from profit to break even will be shorter. Its not like GPU's took over a year to realize you need equipment. Every time a new technology shows up the diff shoots faster and high than before. It will come a time that the money you make will be needed to purchase new equipment and after all has been said and done you end up playing a zero sum game. This will also get to a point where instead of many miners it will be fewer miners and so on.

Bitcoin is designed to make mining a zero sum game. Saving/exchanging is more profitable when you use a currency with a lower miner surplus.

That's simply false.

How far are you extrapolating? If BTC ends up anything like gold, IMHO there would be plenty of miners:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_mining#Business
http://www.24hgold.com/english/listcompanies.aspx?fundamental=true&commodity=PL

Gold value doesn't depend on existence of miners for its value.  No miners -> gold value goes up.  No miners -> Bitcoin value crashes.

Basically I don't think we don't need to be as decentralized as possible, just decentralized "enough" as defined by the consumer market for cryptocurrencies.

That's false in many ways.  The most obvious being that the market can't "define" anything.  The only way for a market to signal dissatisfaction is through lowered interest (lowered demand -> lowered value).  That's simply not eloquent enough -- a huge dump on MtGox crashing Bitcoin prices doesn't scream "decentralize!"

There are plenty of other coins that are ASIC-resistant if and when this becomes an issue. If you think there's a systemic risk in BTC's security model that is less pronounced in other coins, you might want to convert a portion of your savings.

A frightening argument, that.  Along the lines of "when the boat starts sinking, just buy a different boat."  (Protip:  The best time to sell your Titanic is *before* it hits an iceberg.)